Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
snip for brevity

I am sure that elaboration will help.

I was giving a (stinkin') ASE test (one test technicians
take to become certified) answer(!).

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
snip for brevity

I am sure that elaboration will help.

I was giving a (stinkin') ASE test (one test technicians
take to become certified) answer(!).

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
>
> The test -- to be performed by an experienced
> technician -- is to drive the
> car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably
> close to a wall or
> side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch
> several times
> with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.

This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and
engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input
shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their
bearings).

> Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions
> go bad on me.

You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas.
Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny
bearings in the last few years.

In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of
such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for
around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very
quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be
on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
>
> The test -- to be performed by an experienced
> technician -- is to drive the
> car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably
> close to a wall or
> side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch
> several times
> with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.

This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and
engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input
shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their
bearings).

> Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions
> go bad on me.

You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas.
Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny
bearings in the last few years.

In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of
such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for
around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very
quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be
on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
>
> The test -- to be performed by an experienced
> technician -- is to drive the
> car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably
> close to a wall or
> side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch
> several times
> with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.

This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and
engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input
shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their
bearings).

> Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions
> go bad on me.

You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas.
Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny
bearings in the last few years.

In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of
such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for
around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very
quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be
on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> "Lynn McGuire" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote
>>>> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned
>>>> since
>>>> new.
>>>> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at
>>>> Gillman
>>>> Honda here
>>>> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk,
>>>> pressure plate,
>>>> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the
>>>> manual gearbox
>>>> since they are "noisy".
>>>>
>>>> They quoted me $2,800 for the work. I totally agree on
>>>> the clutch
>>>> work but also replacing the bearings inside the
>>>> transmission ?
>>>> That is a lot of work !
>>
>> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling
>> sounds?
>
>
>
> Bad transmission bearings HOWL under load. They howl and
> whine in such a
> manner that there's mo ignoring it (whooOOOOOOOOOOOOO).
> You will have
> difficulty making yourself heard as you shout at your
> passenger. Once it
> gets to that stage, you'd better do something about it
> soon, otherwise one
> of these years the tranny will lock up on you.
>
> The test -- to be performed by an experienced
> technician -- is to drive the
> car to full-warm, park it in a quiet place, preferably
> close to a wall or
> side of another vehicle, then press and release the clutch
> several times
> with the tranny in neutral, while listening carefully.

This test makes perfect sense (since the clutch release and
engagement alternately slows and speeds up the tranny input
shaft, countershaft and mainshaft, riding on their
bearings).

> Personally, I've had two Toyota T-50 5-speed transmissions
> go bad on me.

You got me curious about how often this happens in Hondas.
Doesn't seem like we have had many posts on failed tranny
bearings in the last few years.

In fact the Usenet archives seem to show a fair number of
such failures being reported for Civics and Accords for
around the last ten years or so. Not a lot (or so my very
quick check indicated), but definitely enough to make me be
on the lookout for this with my old 91 Civic.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Elle wrote:
>
> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?
>
> I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
> driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
> running it.
>
> In the alternative, get a second opinion.
>
> I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
> manual transmissions but some other experience with large
> machinery bearings over many years.
>
> My instructor last week said even on a transmission
> overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
> there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
> last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
> properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
> changed at specified intervals).

When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual
transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard
procedure.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Elle wrote:
>
> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?
>
> I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
> driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
> running it.
>
> In the alternative, get a second opinion.
>
> I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
> manual transmissions but some other experience with large
> machinery bearings over many years.
>
> My instructor last week said even on a transmission
> overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
> there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
> last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
> properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
> changed at specified intervals).

When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual
transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard
procedure.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Elle wrote:
>
> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?
>
> I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
> driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
> running it.
>
> In the alternative, get a second opinion.
>
> I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
> manual transmissions but some other experience with large
> machinery bearings over many years.
>
> My instructor last week said even on a transmission
> overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
> there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
> last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
> properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
> changed at specified intervals).

When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual
transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard
procedure.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Elle wrote:
>
> Can you hear any unusual noises? Grating or growling sounds?
>
> I'd make them demonstrate the noise first, either while
> driving around town or by putting the car on a lift and
> running it.
>
> In the alternative, get a second opinion.
>
> I base this on a whopping three weeks of instruction on
> manual transmissions but some other experience with large
> machinery bearings over many years.
>
> My instructor last week said even on a transmission
> overhaul, the shaft bearings were to be left alone unless
> there was evidence of failure. He said these bearings can
> last well past the life of a car, as long as they are
> properly lubricated (= sufficent oil in the case, and oil
> changed at specified intervals).

When I worked in a Honda repair shop I used to rebuild Manual
transmissions. We replaced all bearings in the transmission as standard
procedure.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.

Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
unless they're leaking.

> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
> since they are "noisy".

You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.

Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
unless they're leaking.

> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
> since they are "noisy".

You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.

Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
unless they're leaking.

> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
> since they are "noisy".

You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
> My daughter drives a 97 Civic EX that we have owned since new.
> It has 80K miles on it. We just got it looked at Gillman Honda here
> in Houston and they want to replace the clutch disk, pressure plate,
> throwout bearing, hydraulic slave and master cylinders.

Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
unless they're leaking.

> They also want to replace the shaft bearings on the manual gearbox
> since they are "noisy".

You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

Eric

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

> Why do they want to replace the clutch master and slave cylinders? Are they
> leaking? Or are they doing just as a precaution? I would leave them alone
> unless they're leaking.

yes, they are both leaking.

> You may want to get a second opinion on the transmission bearings. Is the
> car driveable? If so, perform the test Tegger recommended. With the car
> warmed up (both the engine and transmission) depress the clutch pedal. Do
> you hear any noises? If so, then they're probably coming from the throwout
> bearing which is normally replaced with the clutch. Now release the
> clutch. Do you hear any new noises that weren't there before? If the
> bearings are indeed noisy, you should hear a whining sound coming from the
> transmission that wasn't there when the clutch pedal was fully depressed. A
> good maintenance interval for the manual transmission oil is to replace it
> every 30K miles. Has this been done on your Civic?

Yes, drivable. The oil has been replaced once to my knowledge.

> By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
> bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
> regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
> than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
> slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.

The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out
of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is
actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused.
Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the
road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches
(broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain
was properly aligned after that.

We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings
($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn
also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now.

Thanks,
Lynn