Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> The discussion with the instructor came up because of an
>> ASE
>> test question:
>> Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all
>> bearings when overhauling a manual transmission.
>> Technician
>> B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual
>> transmission. Who is correct?
>> A. A
>> B. B
>> C. Both A and B
>> D. Neither A nor B
>>
>> The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily
>> will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion,
>> but
>> instead this time he elaborated as described above. He
>> also
>> mentioned bearing costs.
>
>
>
> To me this would make sense, provided the overhauler was
> experienced enough
> to be able to tell when a bearing is still good. It is
> normal practice to
> inspect transmission parts and decide whether to reuse
> them or not,
> depending on condition. An installer may decide to replace
> only the 2nd
> gear synchro assembly, for instance, and reuse the others
> if they seem OK.
> 2nd often wears first.
>
> I'd think the rebuilder would also be using the condition
> of other
> components in determining what kind of care the tranny had
> in its life.
> Severely worn shift forks and badly rounded dogs would
> suggest hard use (or
> abuse), and in that case, you'd be more suspicious of the
> other parts in
> there..

That all seems reasonable to me.

Torn, I answered C (which as indicated, was marked wrong).

Tech "A" made sense to me because ISTM as long as you're in
there with everything apart, may as well change the
bearings. I had a sense at the time they surely weren't that
expensive especially compared to the total cost. At least
for Hondas, they turn out not to be.

But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
(short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).

Seems like the newsgroup's overall input might be C as well,
though some may lean more towards one or the other.

Just a silly test question. ASE test questions seem to have
the goal of provoking thought, teaching vocabulary and I
would say even teaching a bit of judgment. But they do not
necessarily nail what's done in practice, as I'm sure like
all of you regulars know. So a 70% passing grade makes
sense. The discussion of these questions--including hearing
differing experiences--while taking a course or preparing
for the real exam is instructive and what counts, AFAIC.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> The discussion with the instructor came up because of an
>> ASE
>> test question:
>> Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all
>> bearings when overhauling a manual transmission.
>> Technician
>> B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual
>> transmission. Who is correct?
>> A. A
>> B. B
>> C. Both A and B
>> D. Neither A nor B
>>
>> The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily
>> will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion,
>> but
>> instead this time he elaborated as described above. He
>> also
>> mentioned bearing costs.
>
>
>
> To me this would make sense, provided the overhauler was
> experienced enough
> to be able to tell when a bearing is still good. It is
> normal practice to
> inspect transmission parts and decide whether to reuse
> them or not,
> depending on condition. An installer may decide to replace
> only the 2nd
> gear synchro assembly, for instance, and reuse the others
> if they seem OK.
> 2nd often wears first.
>
> I'd think the rebuilder would also be using the condition
> of other
> components in determining what kind of care the tranny had
> in its life.
> Severely worn shift forks and badly rounded dogs would
> suggest hard use (or
> abuse), and in that case, you'd be more suspicious of the
> other parts in
> there..

That all seems reasonable to me.

Torn, I answered C (which as indicated, was marked wrong).

Tech "A" made sense to me because ISTM as long as you're in
there with everything apart, may as well change the
bearings. I had a sense at the time they surely weren't that
expensive especially compared to the total cost. At least
for Hondas, they turn out not to be.

But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
(short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).

Seems like the newsgroup's overall input might be C as well,
though some may lean more towards one or the other.

Just a silly test question. ASE test questions seem to have
the goal of provoking thought, teaching vocabulary and I
would say even teaching a bit of judgment. But they do not
necessarily nail what's done in practice, as I'm sure like
all of you regulars know. So a 70% passing grade makes
sense. The discussion of these questions--including hearing
differing experiences--while taking a course or preparing
for the real exam is instructive and what counts, AFAIC.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> The discussion with the instructor came up because of an
>> ASE
>> test question:
>> Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all
>> bearings when overhauling a manual transmission.
>> Technician
>> B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual
>> transmission. Who is correct?
>> A. A
>> B. B
>> C. Both A and B
>> D. Neither A nor B
>>
>> The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily
>> will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion,
>> but
>> instead this time he elaborated as described above. He
>> also
>> mentioned bearing costs.
>
>
>
> To me this would make sense, provided the overhauler was
> experienced enough
> to be able to tell when a bearing is still good. It is
> normal practice to
> inspect transmission parts and decide whether to reuse
> them or not,
> depending on condition. An installer may decide to replace
> only the 2nd
> gear synchro assembly, for instance, and reuse the others
> if they seem OK.
> 2nd often wears first.
>
> I'd think the rebuilder would also be using the condition
> of other
> components in determining what kind of care the tranny had
> in its life.
> Severely worn shift forks and badly rounded dogs would
> suggest hard use (or
> abuse), and in that case, you'd be more suspicious of the
> other parts in
> there..

That all seems reasonable to me.

Torn, I answered C (which as indicated, was marked wrong).

Tech "A" made sense to me because ISTM as long as you're in
there with everything apart, may as well change the
bearings. I had a sense at the time they surely weren't that
expensive especially compared to the total cost. At least
for Hondas, they turn out not to be.

But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
(short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).

Seems like the newsgroup's overall input might be C as well,
though some may lean more towards one or the other.

Just a silly test question. ASE test questions seem to have
the goal of provoking thought, teaching vocabulary and I
would say even teaching a bit of judgment. But they do not
necessarily nail what's done in practice, as I'm sure like
all of you regulars know. So a 70% passing grade makes
sense. The discussion of these questions--including hearing
differing experiences--while taking a course or preparing
for the real exam is instructive and what counts, AFAIC.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> The discussion with the instructor came up because of an
>> ASE
>> test question:
>> Technician A says it is a good practice to replace all
>> bearings when overhauling a manual transmission.
>> Technician
>> B says bearings can be reused when overhauling a manual
>> transmission. Who is correct?
>> A. A
>> B. B
>> C. Both A and B
>> D. Neither A nor B
>>
>> The instructor said B was the ASE answer. He customarily
>> will say when an ASE question is stupid, in his opinion,
>> but
>> instead this time he elaborated as described above. He
>> also
>> mentioned bearing costs.
>
>
>
> To me this would make sense, provided the overhauler was
> experienced enough
> to be able to tell when a bearing is still good. It is
> normal practice to
> inspect transmission parts and decide whether to reuse
> them or not,
> depending on condition. An installer may decide to replace
> only the 2nd
> gear synchro assembly, for instance, and reuse the others
> if they seem OK.
> 2nd often wears first.
>
> I'd think the rebuilder would also be using the condition
> of other
> components in determining what kind of care the tranny had
> in its life.
> Severely worn shift forks and badly rounded dogs would
> suggest hard use (or
> abuse), and in that case, you'd be more suspicious of the
> other parts in
> there..

That all seems reasonable to me.

Torn, I answered C (which as indicated, was marked wrong).

Tech "A" made sense to me because ISTM as long as you're in
there with everything apart, may as well change the
bearings. I had a sense at the time they surely weren't that
expensive especially compared to the total cost. At least
for Hondas, they turn out not to be.

But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
(short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).

Seems like the newsgroup's overall input might be C as well,
though some may lean more towards one or the other.

Just a silly test question. ASE test questions seem to have
the goal of provoking thought, teaching vocabulary and I
would say even teaching a bit of judgment. But they do not
necessarily nail what's done in practice, as I'm sure like
all of you regulars know. So a 70% passing grade makes
sense. The discussion of these questions--including hearing
differing experiences--while taking a course or preparing
for the real exam is instructive and what counts, AFAIC.

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:UuVzg.8656$157.1526@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net:


>
> But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
> few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
> manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
> lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
> parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
> (short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).



Abuse can also mean neglect. Many gearboxes and final drives fail due to
low oil level, which is classed as neglect, plain and simple. NObody ever
changes their tranny fluid. Noooo-body. Well 99.9%, anyway.

And if it were me, and I had just spent six hours yanking and disassembling
my tranny, you can bet your last dollar I'd be replacing those bearings no
matter their condition!


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:UuVzg.8656$157.1526@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net:


>
> But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
> few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
> manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
> lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
> parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
> (short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).



Abuse can also mean neglect. Many gearboxes and final drives fail due to
low oil level, which is classed as neglect, plain and simple. NObody ever
changes their tranny fluid. Noooo-body. Well 99.9%, anyway.

And if it were me, and I had just spent six hours yanking and disassembling
my tranny, you can bet your last dollar I'd be replacing those bearings no
matter their condition!


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:UuVzg.8656$157.1526@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net:


>
> But Tech "B" made sense to me because the class had spoke a
> few times of how the tearing down we were doing of these
> manual trannies was something we might never again do in our
> lives, as DIYers or technicians. That meant to me that the
> parts inside the transmission don't fail all that often
> (short of abuse by hot rodding folks etc.).



Abuse can also mean neglect. Many gearboxes and final drives fail due to
low oil level, which is classed as neglect, plain and simple. NObody ever
changes their tranny fluid. Noooo-body. Well 99.9%, anyway.

And if it were me, and I had just spent six hours yanking and disassembling
my tranny, you can bet your last dollar I'd be replacing those bearings no
matter their condition!


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

>> By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
>> bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
>> regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
>> than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
>> slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.
>
> The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out
> of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is
> actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused.
> Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the
> road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches
> (broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain
> was properly aligned after that.
>
> We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings
> ($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn
> also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now.

Sigh. The Honda mechanic got it all back together and drove it. There
was another noisy bearing inside the tranny that he missed before. The
dealership is ripping the tranny apart again (on their nickle this time)
and replacing the 3rd ? 4th ? 5th ? bearing for another $60. And 2 days
more work.

My goal is to get another 3 years out of this car at 10K miles/year. Not a
bad investment, just painfull at the moment. My daughter has been driving
her Mom's 05 Civic 5 speed EX SE for the moment. Now she wants to
swap cars with her Mom ...

Lynn

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

>> By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
>> bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
>> regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
>> than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
>> slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.
>
> The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out
> of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is
> actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused.
> Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the
> road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches
> (broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain
> was properly aligned after that.
>
> We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings
> ($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn
> also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now.

Sigh. The Honda mechanic got it all back together and drove it. There
was another noisy bearing inside the tranny that he missed before. The
dealership is ripping the tranny apart again (on their nickle this time)
and replacing the 3rd ? 4th ? 5th ? bearing for another $60. And 2 days
more work.

My goal is to get another 3 years out of this car at 10K miles/year. Not a
bad investment, just painfull at the moment. My daughter has been driving
her Mom's 05 Civic 5 speed EX SE for the moment. Now she wants to
swap cars with her Mom ...

Lynn

Re: rebuild clutch and tranny on 97 Civic EX
 

>> By the way, I should probably ask what symptoms the car had that lead you to
>> bring it in to the dealer? Is the clutch slipping or was this just a
>> regular service? For what it's worth, clutches can often last much longer
>> than 80K miles. I have about 120K miles on my clutch with no sign of
>> slipping but I tend to go easy on it and I drove mostly freeway miles.
>
> The clutch felt "weird" and the tranny is very tough to shift in and out
> of gear when the engine is running. Yes, it does "growl". This is
> actually the 2nd clutch replacement. The car has really been abused.
> Both our kids were taught to drive in it. Plus my son ran it off the
> road one day and hung the tranny on the curb, moving it back 2 inches
> (broke the motor mounts). I have always wondered if the drivetrain
> was properly aligned after that.
>
> We reduced the amount of work done to replacing the tranny bearings
> ($500). It was another $650 to replace the gear shafts if they are worn
> also. So, I am $2150 for the work getting done right now.

Sigh. The Honda mechanic got it all back together and drove it. There
was another noisy bearing inside the tranny that he missed before. The
dealership is ripping the tranny apart again (on their nickle this time)
and replacing the 3rd ? 4th ? 5th ? bearing for another $60. And 2 days
more work.

My goal is to get another 3 years out of this car at 10K miles/year. Not a
bad investment, just painfull at the moment. My daughter has been driving
her Mom's 05 Civic 5 speed EX SE for the moment. Now she wants to
swap cars with her Mom ...

Lynn