jim beam

On 09/18/2009 06:35 AM, hls wrote:
>
> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>>
>> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
>> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
>> create symptoms /like/ warping.
>
> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.

but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
you'll have a real hard time warping them.


> I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. Heat
> and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
> can be a real issue.

the symptoms are a real issue. it's caused by elastic distortion [as
opposed to permanent warping] of the hub interface and incorrect torque.
if the interface is sticky because of rust, the wheel doesn't seat
completely flat, and so when incorrect torque is applied, differential
stress on a modern lightweight hub causes it to be sprung slightly off
center. if you remove, clean and slightly lube the interface, it seats
square and "warped" disks are magically square again. which is of
course why you can remove a "warped" disk and put a micrometer on it to
find it perfectly flat.


>
> There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
> dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. Roundness
> or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
> can occur.

or crud patches on the disk, say from prior greasy fingerprints.

>
> Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
> shudder.
>
> A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. A good
> shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. A dealership might be
> good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a
> shop
> with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
> know how irritating it can be.

Ashton Crusher

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:08:59 -1000, dsi1
<dsi1@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote:

>Timothy J. Lee wrote:
>> In article <ziCsm.180519$O23.92550@newsfe11.iad>,
>> dsi1 <dsi1@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote:
>>> How could it be a wrecked Honda? You got it new. If you're worried about
>>> this, the body-fender guy should be able to tell if it's been in a
>>> accident pretty easily. Nice looking car though...
>>
>> New cars sometimes get damaged and sent to local auto body repair shops
>> for repair.
>>
>
>That's a bummer! I guess that would be a dirty little secret of the
>automobile industry.


My Dad left one of his rear doors open on his car and backed out of
his garage. The door caught the side of the garage and got pulled out
past the normal open position. the door was damaged to the point of
needing to be reskinned. Instead of fixing it (estimate was $2800) he
traded it in on a new one. The dealer fixed it but of course since
it's done by their own shop and not thru insurance there is no record.
When we looked at the ad they ran that had the car in it they had the
carfax report which highlights "No accident history" . I'm sure the
same happens on new cars that get damaged in transit or on the lot.

Brian Smith

dsi1 wrote:
>
> That's a bummer! I guess that would be a dirty little secret of the
> automobile industry.

It's hardly a secret.

dsi1

Brian Smith wrote:
> dsi1 wrote:
>>
>> That's a bummer! I guess that would be a dirty little secret of the
>> automobile industry.
>
> It's hardly a secret.

In what way is this not a secret? Do cars typically get into accidents
on the way to the dealer? How many new cars have to have body repairs
done? If everybody knew this, wouldn't all buyers be checking new cars
for collision damage and bodywork? Are they doing this?

If might not be a secret to you if you're in the new car sales business.
If it is true, I would guess that the new car dealers would want to keep
that knowledge away from the general public - that's my definition of
dirty-little secret.

Brian Smith

dsi1 wrote:
>
> In what way is this not a secret? Do cars typically get into accidents
> on the way to the dealer? How many new cars have to have body repairs
> done? If everybody knew this, wouldn't all buyers be checking new cars
> for collision damage and bodywork? Are they doing this?

As the vehicles are loaded and unloaded off the ships and rail cars
bumps and dings occur in the natural course of that movement. The number
would vary depending on the season, slippery conditions would obviously
lead to an increase in damage. Note that I am taking about minor
collisions that result in small amounts of damage to the vehicle(s),
although sometime fenders, doors and bumpers have to be replaced and
painted. That's why Autoports have their own body shops. Smart shoppers
realize that this is possible and check their potential new vehicle over
carefully before accepting delivery.

> If might not be a secret to you if you're in the new car sales business.
> If it is true, I would guess that the new car dealers would want to keep
> that knowledge away from the general public - that's my definition of
> dirty-little secret.

I don't work in the automotive industry, I am not a novice when it
comes to the car purchasing game. It doesn't take long to drive past a
car lot and see vehicles being bumped by the car lot jockeys. Again,
it's not a secret any more than the sun rises in the east is one. :^)

hls

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>
> but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
> you'll have a real hard time warping them.


I have seen it happen rather frequently.

I have gotten discs cherry red before when they didnt warp. And I have
had them warp on the vehicle within a month or two of having them rotated
when no severe overheating was evident.

The rotation didnt cause the problem directly. But the normal heating of
the rotor disc, being quenched with rain water perhaps, coupled with the
use of impact wrenches to hammer the lug nuts on seem to be the factors
that cause this.

When you can measure the warp, either on the car or on the brake lathe, then
you HAVE warp.

I fully agree that corrosion, dirt, etc can cause problems with out of
planar
rotation. When the disc rotates out of plane, it does not cause the same
sort of pulsation that is noted with width variation of the rotor occurs.

Bottom line, IMO, it is a little more complicated problem that a lot of
people
suspect. To get the best results, the mechanic or home mechanic needs to
understand the various factors that are happening., and needs to be careful
how he or she remediates those factors.

hls

"Sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xXTsm.44417$Db2.1666@edtnps83...
>
> "hls" <hls@nospam.nix> wrote in message
> news:AbSdnfXKY7BVcS7XnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Who gives a about your Accord RICEMOBILE? This is a ING Toyota
>>> newsgroup. Get the out.
>>
>> Did the next to the last man on earth die and leave you his position of
>> authority?
>
> Indeed, yes. The rest of you are pansy, Honda-driving *******.
I dont drive a Honda, but have every right to post here if I wish, and I
WILL
if I wish, psycho.

jim beam

On 09/19/2009 07:56 AM, hls wrote:
>
> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>>
>> but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
>> you'll have a real hard time warping them.
>
>
> I have seen it happen rather frequently.

you've seen the symptoms of the braking problem, but i'll bet you
haven't seen [or measured] actual disk warpage.


>
> I have gotten discs cherry red before when they didnt warp. And I have
> had them warp on the vehicle within a month or two of having them rotated
> when no severe overheating was evident.

precisely my point!


>
> The rotation didnt cause the problem directly. But the normal heating of
> the rotor disc, being quenched with rain water perhaps, coupled with the
> use of impact wrenches to hammer the lug nuts on seem to be the factors
> that cause this.

latter, not the former.


>
> When you can measure the warp, either on the car or on the brake lathe,
> then
> you HAVE warp.

indeed, but it's rare. accurate measurement is rare too.


>
> I fully agree that corrosion, dirt, etc can cause problems with out of
> planar
> rotation. When the disc rotates out of plane, it does not cause the same
> sort of pulsation that is noted with width variation of the rotor occurs.

with single piston calipers, it's almost impossible to tell the
difference.


>
> Bottom line, IMO, it is a little more complicated problem that a lot of
> people
> suspect. To get the best results, the mechanic or home mechanic needs to
> understand the various factors that are happening., and needs to be careful
> how he or she remediates those factors.

indeed. that is why i'm taking the time to write about what causes and
fixes the problem. sure, you can replace the disks, a shop favorite,
and it works because the new disk surface is clean! but skimmed disks
rarely work because the disk is not cleaned.

bottom line - i have cured "warped" rotors on multiple cars multiple
times as i describe. most times i've taken a car to tire shop, i have
this problem as i drive home. i re-seat [as described] and re-torque
when i get home, problem disappears. that simply couldn't happen with a
genuinely warped disk.

hls

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message

>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>
> but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
> you'll have a real hard time warping them.
>
By the way, the following link to Babcock is good reading for the learning
amateur for essentially any disc braked car..

http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Arti...heck_list.aspx

Jeff Strickland

"hls" <hls@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:VP2dnUKDuNYDbCnXnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> "Sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xXTsm.44417$Db2.1666@edtnps83...
>>
>> "hls" <hls@nospam.nix> wrote in message
>> news:AbSdnfXKY7BVcS7XnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who gives a about your Accord RICEMOBILE? This is a ING Toyota
>>>> newsgroup. Get the out.
>>>
>>> Did the next to the last man on earth die and leave you his position of
>>> authority?
>>
>> Indeed, yes. The rest of you are pansy, Honda-driving *******.
> I dont drive a Honda, but have every right to post here if I wish, and I
> WILL
> if I wish, psycho.


You'll derive much more satisfaction if you Block Sharx.

He seldom adds anything beyond poorly chosen and worn out profanity. He has
hit a couple of homeruns, I'll give him that. But the strikeouts out number
the good hits by a very wide margin. Nobody would remember Babe Ruth if the
only hit he got was the one where he pointed to the outfield fence on a full
count. That's pretty much Sharx's profile ...


Having said all of that, I can't help but wonder why none of the Honda
forums are included in your crosspost.

Jeff Strickland

"Otis" <rev_otis_mcnatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:46e0adf3-8842-4fee-8280-b338ff4c231d@m11g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>
> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>
> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>
> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
> guess.
> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
> wanted
> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
> if they
> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
> think
> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
> *worse*
> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
>
> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
>
> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
> little
> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.
>
> http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg


I hate to say this, but I've gotta wonder at the suspension issues you
describe, and coupled with the body panel alignment that Honda normally gets
done with near precision, has your car been wrecked or dropped off the truck
or some other significant trauma happened before you bought the car? (I like
to think that if the trauma happened after you bought the car, you'd
remember ... )

The shaking when you apply the brakes is typically the result of warped
brake rotors. One would not expect this to be the case on a brand new car,
but warped rotors should be a strong consideration. Warped rotors can easily
exist without grooves, and in such cases, they can be machined true again.

You have a brand new car that demonstrated semi-significant issues the day
you drove it off of the lot.

If you drive on a straight section of freeway and take your hands off the
steering wheel, does the car proceed straight for at least one-quarter mile,
or does it veer off track to either the left or the right.

NOTE: If the car gently drifts to the right, this can be the result of the
slope of the roadway that carries water to the right shoulder. This sloping
can vary from one location on the freeway to another, so it would be
reasonable to do the test is several places and note any changes.

NOTE 2: When I say, take your hands off of the steering wheel, I'm not
suggesting you set the autopilot and climb into the back seat, letting the
car go on its merry way. You also need to be cognizant of the movements of
the other cars, and not ride down the freeway hands-free in traffic. Just
hold you hands above the wheel and let the car go straight by itself, if it
can. If the car does not go straight, then you need to hold the wheel again.

The shaking can also be the result of damaged suspension components, struts,
control arms, rack & pinion, and so on. It can also be an out of balance
tire, but this condition would not change simply because you applied the
brakes. Suspension component problems would change through the application
of the brakes.

None of the problems you describe is severe when taken in isolation, but
when they are all combined they paint a very ugly picture. I hope the
picture is not real, but if it is, you deserve redress. You describe a host
of relatively minor, and normal, issues that happen over time, but you
describe them from the very first day of ownership, and this is alarming.

I have owned several Hondas -- '82 Accord, '86 Accord DX, and '89 Accord
LXi -- all of them became high-mileage cars (over 200K). That's not true,
the '86 was t-boned on the passenger's side and was a total loss. Honda
builds excellent cars, but yours seems to fall well short of "excellent."

I'd be writing a friendly letter to Honda America explaining that your car
has had a shimmy from the very first day that has gotten worse over time,
and that the hood alignment is not right. Taken individually, not big
issues, but taken together is very alarming and you have to wonder if the
car has a history that was not part of the bargain you struck with the
dealership. Include the VIN number. The car could have "port damage" that
the dealership never knew about, or the car could have been out on a test
drive and somebody drove it over a curb. Lots of things could be true, or
not. But you have a host of issues that might be related to events before
you took delivery.

You might have a Lemon Law car.

jim

jim beam wrote:
>
> On 09/19/2009 07:56 AM, hls wrote:
> >
> > "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
> >>
> >> but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
> >> you'll have a real hard time warping them.
> >
> >
> > I have seen it happen rather frequently.
>
> you've seen the symptoms of the braking problem, but i'll bet you
> haven't seen [or measured] actual disk warpage.
>
> >
> > I have gotten discs cherry red before when they didnt warp. And I have
> > had them warp on the vehicle within a month or two of having them rotated
> > when no severe overheating was evident.
>
> precisely my point!
>
> >
> > The rotation didnt cause the problem directly. But the normal heating of
> > the rotor disc, being quenched with rain water perhaps, coupled with the
> > use of impact wrenches to hammer the lug nuts on seem to be the factors
> > that cause this.
>
> latter, not the former.
>
> >
> > When you can measure the warp, either on the car or on the brake lathe,
> > then
> > you HAVE warp.
>
> indeed, but it's rare. accurate measurement is rare too.
>
> >
> > I fully agree that corrosion, dirt, etc can cause problems with out of
> > planar
> > rotation. When the disc rotates out of plane, it does not cause the same
> > sort of pulsation that is noted with width variation of the rotor occurs.
>
> with single piston calipers, it's almost impossible to tell the
> difference.
>
> >
> > Bottom line, IMO, it is a little more complicated problem that a lot of
> > people
> > suspect. To get the best results, the mechanic or home mechanic needs to
> > understand the various factors that are happening., and needs to be careful
> > how he or she remediates those factors.
>
> indeed. that is why i'm taking the time to write about what causes and
> fixes the problem. sure, you can replace the disks, a shop favorite,
> and it works because the new disk surface is clean! but skimmed disks
> rarely work because the disk is not cleaned.
>
> bottom line - i have cured "warped" rotors on multiple cars multiple
> times as i describe. most times i've taken a car to tire shop, i have
> this problem as i drive home. i re-seat [as described] and re-torque
> when i get home, problem disappears. that simply couldn't happen with a
> genuinely warped disk.

Yeah, I mostly agree. But all of that would have probably applied when
he first got the car. At this point the problem may have developed into
something else.

If you drive the car with a shimmy for 10000 miles like the OP did then
that can result in uneven wear on the rotors. When it reaches that point
it becomes very noticeable in the brake pedal and not just the steering
wheel. At that point the problem can only be fixed by replacing or
turning the rotors because the rotors can and do wear unevenly.
Also when it progresses that far if you don't address the problem it
may to other wheels because the pulsing pressure in the brake
line circuit may cause uneven wear on the other rotors.

-jim

jim beam

On 09/19/2009 10:07 AM, jim wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>>
>> On 09/19/2009 07:56 AM, hls wrote:
>>>
>>> "jim beam"<me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>>>>
>>>> but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
>>>> you'll have a real hard time warping them.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have seen it happen rather frequently.
>>
>> you've seen the symptoms of the braking problem, but i'll bet you
>> haven't seen [or measured] actual disk warpage.
>>
>>>
>>> I have gotten discs cherry red before when they didnt warp. And I have
>>> had them warp on the vehicle within a month or two of having them rotated
>>> when no severe overheating was evident.
>>
>> precisely my point!
>>
>>>
>>> The rotation didnt cause the problem directly. But the normal heating of
>>> the rotor disc, being quenched with rain water perhaps, coupled with the
>>> use of impact wrenches to hammer the lug nuts on seem to be the factors
>>> that cause this.
>>
>> latter, not the former.
>>
>>>
>>> When you can measure the warp, either on the car or on the brake lathe,
>>> then
>>> you HAVE warp.
>>
>> indeed, but it's rare. accurate measurement is rare too.
>>
>>>
>>> I fully agree that corrosion, dirt, etc can cause problems with out of
>>> planar
>>> rotation. When the disc rotates out of plane, it does not cause the same
>>> sort of pulsation that is noted with width variation of the rotor occurs.
>>
>> with single piston calipers, it's almost impossible to tell the
>> difference.
>>
>>>
>>> Bottom line, IMO, it is a little more complicated problem that a lot of
>>> people
>>> suspect. To get the best results, the mechanic or home mechanic needs to
>>> understand the various factors that are happening., and needs to be careful
>>> how he or she remediates those factors.
>>
>> indeed. that is why i'm taking the time to write about what causes and
>> fixes the problem. sure, you can replace the disks, a shop favorite,
>> and it works because the new disk surface is clean! but skimmed disks
>> rarely work because the disk is not cleaned.
>>
>> bottom line - i have cured "warped" rotors on multiple cars multiple
>> times as i describe. most times i've taken a car to tire shop, i have
>> this problem as i drive home. i re-seat [as described] and re-torque
>> when i get home, problem disappears. that simply couldn't happen with a
>> genuinely warped disk.
>
> Yeah, I mostly agree. But all of that would have probably applied when
> he first got the car. At this point the problem may have developed into
> something else.
>
> If you drive the car with a shimmy for 10000 miles like the OP did then
> that can result in uneven wear on the rotors. When it reaches that point
> it becomes very noticeable in the brake pedal and not just the steering
> wheel. At that point the problem can only be fixed by replacing or
> turning the rotors because the rotors can and do wear unevenly.
> Also when it progresses that far if you don't address the problem it
> may to other wheels because the pulsing pressure in the brake
> line circuit may cause uneven wear on the other rotors.
>
> -jim

don't disagree. but i can't imagine how anyone can drive a vehicle in
that condition for that length of time.

Sharx35

"hls" <hls@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:VP2dnUKDuNYDbCnXnZ2dnUVZ_t2dnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> "Sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xXTsm.44417$Db2.1666@edtnps83...
>>
>> "hls" <hls@nospam.nix> wrote in message
>> news:AbSdnfXKY7BVcS7XnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Who gives a about your Accord RICEMOBILE? This is a ING Toyota
>>>> newsgroup. Get the out.
>>>
>>> Did the next to the last man on earth die and leave you his position of
>>> authority?
>>
>> Indeed, yes. The rest of you are pansy, Honda-driving *******.
> I dont drive a Honda, but have every right to post here if I wish, and I
> WILL
> if I wish, psycho.

Suck dick, DEMONrat LIEbrawl.

hls

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:meKdnVFqzeV0binXnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> On 09/19/2009 07:56 AM, hls wrote:
>>
>> "jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>>>
>>> but that almost never happens. even if you get those disks cherry red,
>>> you'll have a real hard time warping them.
>>
>>
>> I have seen it happen rather frequently.
>
> you've seen the symptoms of the braking problem, but i'll bet you haven't
> seen [or measured] actual disk warpage.

Yes, I have. You are apparently not paying attention.