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Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns97E9E0CAE877Etegger@207.14.116.130: > If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly > straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're > right. And it does not matter if this happens. To clarify: If you have to rotate the steering wheel and hold it there to make the car track straight, this is an issue quite separate from the "dog walking". "Dog walking" by itself does not cause steering pull. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in > news:Xns97E9E0CAE877Etegger@207.14.116.130: > > > >>If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly >>straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're >>right. And it does not matter if this happens. > > > > > To clarify: If you have to rotate the steering wheel and hold it there to > make the car track straight, this is an issue quite separate from the "dog > walking". "Dog walking" by itself does not cause steering pull. > > > "dog walking" is also why you may have to adjust the toe /both/ sides of the rear, not just one. the angle each side of the center line has to be identical with their bisector passing exactly through the center line of the vehicle. |
Re: Setting Toe
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in > news:Xns97E9E0CAE877Etegger@207.14.116.130: > > > >>If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly >>straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're >>right. And it does not matter if this happens. > > > > > To clarify: If you have to rotate the steering wheel and hold it there to > make the car track straight, this is an issue quite separate from the "dog > walking". "Dog walking" by itself does not cause steering pull. > > > "dog walking" is also why you may have to adjust the toe /both/ sides of the rear, not just one. the angle each side of the center line has to be identical with their bisector passing exactly through the center line of the vehicle. |
Re: Setting Toe
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in > news:Xns97E9E0CAE877Etegger@207.14.116.130: > > > >>If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the road perfectly >>straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one side, you're >>right. And it does not matter if this happens. > > > > > To clarify: If you have to rotate the steering wheel and hold it there to > make the car track straight, this is an issue quite separate from the "dog > walking". "Dog walking" by itself does not cause steering pull. > > > "dog walking" is also why you may have to adjust the toe /both/ sides of the rear, not just one. the angle each side of the center line has to be identical with their bisector passing exactly through the center line of the vehicle. |
Re: Setting Toe
"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote: >> >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be >> adjusted: Toe. >> >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? >> > > [snip] > > If you've had the rear trailing arms replaced, then you > need to have the > rear toe adjusted. I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. But I gather your advice does not change. > The best way to do this is to have a professional > alignment done. Just pay the $50-60 or whatever and get a > 4 wheel > alignment done. I've done many alignments using > computerized laser sensors > which are mounted to the wheels. A small amount of > adjustment at the rears > typically makes a large difference. I believe that a > professional 4 wheel > alignment will be the best thing you can do to maximize > the longevity of > your tires (including of course regularly checking the air > pressure and > rotating them periodically so that they get even wear). Knowing this helps a lot, Eric. I value your opinion. |
Re: Setting Toe
"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote: >> >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be >> adjusted: Toe. >> >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? >> > > [snip] > > If you've had the rear trailing arms replaced, then you > need to have the > rear toe adjusted. I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. But I gather your advice does not change. > The best way to do this is to have a professional > alignment done. Just pay the $50-60 or whatever and get a > 4 wheel > alignment done. I've done many alignments using > computerized laser sensors > which are mounted to the wheels. A small amount of > adjustment at the rears > typically makes a large difference. I believe that a > professional 4 wheel > alignment will be the best thing you can do to maximize > the longevity of > your tires (including of course regularly checking the air > pressure and > rotating them periodically so that they get even wear). Knowing this helps a lot, Eric. I value your opinion. |
Re: Setting Toe
"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote: >> >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be >> adjusted: Toe. >> >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? >> > > [snip] > > If you've had the rear trailing arms replaced, then you > need to have the > rear toe adjusted. I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. But I gather your advice does not change. > The best way to do this is to have a professional > alignment done. Just pay the $50-60 or whatever and get a > 4 wheel > alignment done. I've done many alignments using > computerized laser sensors > which are mounted to the wheels. A small amount of > adjustment at the rears > typically makes a large difference. I believe that a > professional 4 wheel > alignment will be the best thing you can do to maximize > the longevity of > your tires (including of course regularly checking the air > pressure and > rotating them periodically so that they get even wear). Knowing this helps a lot, Eric. I value your opinion. |
Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> You can't do it yourself with any precision. Okay. > The job is properly done this way: > 1) Adjust REAR *total* toe FIRST. This gives you your > "thrust center line", > upon which the FRONT toe depends. > 2) After rear toe is adjusted, front toe is adjusted using > the steering > outer tie-rod ends so that two things occur: > a) *Total* front toe is within spec, and > b) front-end toe on either side of the thrust center line > is equal. Okay, thanks for the elaboration. > Thrust center line (rear axle forwards): > _ > | > |-------- > | > - > > > Front wheels pointed towards the thrust center line. Their > angles must > intersect the thrust line at the same point: > > _ \ > | > |--------- > | > - / > > The shop will often not adjust BOTH compensator arms, but > only one. It's > not necessary to do both, so long as the thrust center > line is such that > the front end can be made to conform to it within its > range of adjustment. > The thrust line does NOT have to parallel the car body's > front-to-back > centerline. > > If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the > road perfectly > straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one > side, you're right. > And it does not matter if this happens. Some cars (certain > domestics come > to mind) only have a single rear adjustment on ONE side. I googled before I posted and did indeed notice discussion of certain Fords, for one, having the adjustment on only one rear side. My dealer IIRC wants $89 for the job but I think I'll shop around a bit. The car has no pull or any odd steering. The tie rod ends (originals) appear quite secure. The inner tire wear on the front pass side may have been due to worn bushings and a darn near totally corroded stabilizer link on that side. All have been replaced. Very smooth ride now (and I think it's more than the placebo effect; I'm feeling that cornering on rails thing), but I know after all this work an alignment (the first ever) is a very good idea. |
Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> You can't do it yourself with any precision. Okay. > The job is properly done this way: > 1) Adjust REAR *total* toe FIRST. This gives you your > "thrust center line", > upon which the FRONT toe depends. > 2) After rear toe is adjusted, front toe is adjusted using > the steering > outer tie-rod ends so that two things occur: > a) *Total* front toe is within spec, and > b) front-end toe on either side of the thrust center line > is equal. Okay, thanks for the elaboration. > Thrust center line (rear axle forwards): > _ > | > |-------- > | > - > > > Front wheels pointed towards the thrust center line. Their > angles must > intersect the thrust line at the same point: > > _ \ > | > |--------- > | > - / > > The shop will often not adjust BOTH compensator arms, but > only one. It's > not necessary to do both, so long as the thrust center > line is such that > the front end can be made to conform to it within its > range of adjustment. > The thrust line does NOT have to parallel the car body's > front-to-back > centerline. > > If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the > road perfectly > straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one > side, you're right. > And it does not matter if this happens. Some cars (certain > domestics come > to mind) only have a single rear adjustment on ONE side. I googled before I posted and did indeed notice discussion of certain Fords, for one, having the adjustment on only one rear side. My dealer IIRC wants $89 for the job but I think I'll shop around a bit. The car has no pull or any odd steering. The tie rod ends (originals) appear quite secure. The inner tire wear on the front pass side may have been due to worn bushings and a darn near totally corroded stabilizer link on that side. All have been replaced. Very smooth ride now (and I think it's more than the placebo effect; I'm feeling that cornering on rails thing), but I know after all this work an alignment (the first ever) is a very good idea. |
Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> You can't do it yourself with any precision. Okay. > The job is properly done this way: > 1) Adjust REAR *total* toe FIRST. This gives you your > "thrust center line", > upon which the FRONT toe depends. > 2) After rear toe is adjusted, front toe is adjusted using > the steering > outer tie-rod ends so that two things occur: > a) *Total* front toe is within spec, and > b) front-end toe on either side of the thrust center line > is equal. Okay, thanks for the elaboration. > Thrust center line (rear axle forwards): > _ > | > |-------- > | > - > > > Front wheels pointed towards the thrust center line. Their > angles must > intersect the thrust line at the same point: > > _ \ > | > |--------- > | > - / > > The shop will often not adjust BOTH compensator arms, but > only one. It's > not necessary to do both, so long as the thrust center > line is such that > the front end can be made to conform to it within its > range of adjustment. > The thrust line does NOT have to parallel the car body's > front-to-back > centerline. > > If you've guessed that the car may not travel down the > road perfectly > straight, but may "crab" or "dog walk" a little to one > side, you're right. > And it does not matter if this happens. Some cars (certain > domestics come > to mind) only have a single rear adjustment on ONE side. I googled before I posted and did indeed notice discussion of certain Fords, for one, having the adjustment on only one rear side. My dealer IIRC wants $89 for the job but I think I'll shop around a bit. The car has no pull or any odd steering. The tie rod ends (originals) appear quite secure. The inner tire wear on the front pass side may have been due to worn bushings and a darn near totally corroded stabilizer link on that side. All have been replaced. Very smooth ride now (and I think it's more than the placebo effect; I'm feeling that cornering on rails thing), but I know after all this work an alignment (the first ever) is a very good idea. |
Re: Setting Toe
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be >> adjusted: Toe. >> >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? >> > > I've done several by looking at the wear pattern. > Initially I've tried to get close with a measuring tape, > but all the stuff in the way makes that hopeless. > > If you find a fairly straight stretch of road and put > masking tape (duct tape if the masking tape won't hold) > from sidewall to sidewall on the front tires, you can > drive a mile or so and check the wear. I think I'll give this a try just to see what it turns up. I wish I'd done it before all my suspension renovation work so I could compare. Thanks Michael! > Excessive toe-in shows up as wear on the outer edges while > toe-out appears as wear on the inner edges. I start with > half turn adjustments on each tie rod; your intuition > should do just fine for the finer adjustments. > > It goes without saying the differential tie rod adjustment > affects how your steering wheel sits, so the iterative > process often ends with adjusting the centering after you > get the wear dialed in. Within an hour you should have a > really fine result. Understood. Thanks again! |
Re: Setting Toe
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be >> adjusted: Toe. >> >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? >> > > I've done several by looking at the wear pattern. > Initially I've tried to get close with a measuring tape, > but all the stuff in the way makes that hopeless. > > If you find a fairly straight stretch of road and put > masking tape (duct tape if the masking tape won't hold) > from sidewall to sidewall on the front tires, you can > drive a mile or so and check the wear. I think I'll give this a try just to see what it turns up. I wish I'd done it before all my suspension renovation work so I could compare. Thanks Michael! > Excessive toe-in shows up as wear on the outer edges while > toe-out appears as wear on the inner edges. I start with > half turn adjustments on each tie rod; your intuition > should do just fine for the finer adjustments. > > It goes without saying the differential tie rod adjustment > affects how your steering wheel sits, so the iterative > process often ends with adjusting the centering after you > get the wear dialed in. Within an hour you should have a > really fine result. Understood. Thanks again! |
Re: Setting Toe
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be >> adjusted: Toe. >> >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? >> > > I've done several by looking at the wear pattern. > Initially I've tried to get close with a measuring tape, > but all the stuff in the way makes that hopeless. > > If you find a fairly straight stretch of road and put > masking tape (duct tape if the masking tape won't hold) > from sidewall to sidewall on the front tires, you can > drive a mile or so and check the wear. I think I'll give this a try just to see what it turns up. I wish I'd done it before all my suspension renovation work so I could compare. Thanks Michael! > Excessive toe-in shows up as wear on the outer edges while > toe-out appears as wear on the inner edges. I start with > half turn adjustments on each tie rod; your intuition > should do just fine for the finer adjustments. > > It goes without saying the differential tie rod adjustment > affects how your steering wheel sits, so the iterative > process often ends with adjusting the centering after you > get the wear dialed in. Within an hour you should have a > really fine result. Understood. Thanks again! |
Re: Setting Toe
Elle wrote:
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote > > Elle wrote: > >> > >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other > >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be > >> adjusted: Toe. > >> > >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools > >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as > >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? > >> > > > > [snip] > > > > If you've had the rear trailing arms replaced, then you > > need to have the > > rear toe adjusted. > > I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. > I'm just a little bit curious. Exactly which bushings are you referring to, the ones labeled as part #12 in this diagram http://tinyurl.com/fwt4y or the large one in the middle of the rear trailing arm through which bolt #26 goes to help mount the trailing arm to the car? Eric |
Re: Setting Toe
Elle wrote:
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote > > Elle wrote: > >> > >> Without serious modifications, my 91 Civic (among other > >> Honda models) permits only one alignment angle to be > >> adjusted: Toe. > >> > >> Has anyone here set the toe themselves? If so, what tools > >> did you use or devise? Was your effort successful as > >> indicated by tire wear and steering feel? > >> > > > > [snip] > > > > If you've had the rear trailing arms replaced, then you > > need to have the > > rear toe adjusted. > > I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. > I'm just a little bit curious. Exactly which bushings are you referring to, the ones labeled as part #12 in this diagram http://tinyurl.com/fwt4y or the large one in the middle of the rear trailing arm through which bolt #26 goes to help mount the trailing arm to the car? Eric |
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