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Re: Setting Toe
"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:449B2429.B610260F@spam.now...
> Elle wrote: >> >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote >> > Elle wrote: >> >> I personally replaced the trailing arm bushings on Monday. >> > >> > I'm just a little bit curious. Exactly which bushings are >> > you referring to, the ones labeled as part #12 in this diagram >> > http://tinyurl.com/fwt4y or the large one in the middle of the rear >> > trailing arm through which bolt #26 goes to help mount the trailing >> > arm to the car? >> >> I replaced both, but the one to which I refer above is the >> larger one (with bolts #26 going through it), Honda part >> #52385-SR3000 , only available in the last several years or >> so. Schley produced a special (and super fast and super >> effective) tool for removing it only in the last couple of >> years. I have a fuller discussion at the bottom of >> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lio...tml#tabushings, >> with some links to excellent sites with photos of the >> process. > > OK, thanks for clarifying the work that you did. > >> >> But I gather your advice does not change. > > No, a four wheel alignment is definitely in order. > > Eric That's what I hadn't considered - I haven't had to do four wheel alignment before. While I imagine it could be done with a similar procedure (measuring rear wear and torque steer besides the front part) it makes a lot more sense to take that to a pro. Mike |
Re: Setting Toe
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in > news:TeWdndi8BJnvWQfZnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@insightbb.co m: > > >>"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message >>news:Xns97EA7CC498C17tegger@207.14.116.130... >> >>>Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL >>> >> >>I'm a lurker in a.a.h., and I have noticed that you seem very >>knowledgable. > > > > > I pretend well, huh? > > > > >>So, your comment about rear disc breake intrigues me. I >>thought rear discs were desirable? If not, why not? >> > > > > > Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing department. > Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound so hi-tech and > sporty. They enable the sales department to have greater success liberating > greenbacks from your wallet. > > Rear discs in a road-going FWD car are otherwise utterly useless and > trouble-prone. They never work hard enough to get very hot, so they rust, > seize and wear out with distressing haste and regularity unless the car is > used in SoCal or Arizona. > > Any more questions? > retrogrouch! in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. they also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking effectiveness. for a vehicle that potters about town getting groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, these benefits cease to be so theoretical. |
Re: Setting Toe
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in > news:TeWdndi8BJnvWQfZnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@insightbb.co m: > > >>"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message >>news:Xns97EA7CC498C17tegger@207.14.116.130... >> >>>Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL >>> >> >>I'm a lurker in a.a.h., and I have noticed that you seem very >>knowledgable. > > > > > I pretend well, huh? > > > > >>So, your comment about rear disc breake intrigues me. I >>thought rear discs were desirable? If not, why not? >> > > > > > Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing department. > Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound so hi-tech and > sporty. They enable the sales department to have greater success liberating > greenbacks from your wallet. > > Rear discs in a road-going FWD car are otherwise utterly useless and > trouble-prone. They never work hard enough to get very hot, so they rust, > seize and wear out with distressing haste and regularity unless the car is > used in SoCal or Arizona. > > Any more questions? > retrogrouch! in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. they also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking effectiveness. for a vehicle that potters about town getting groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, these benefits cease to be so theoretical. |
Re: Setting Toe
TeGGeR® wrote:
> "R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in > news:TeWdndi8BJnvWQfZnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@insightbb.co m: > > >>"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message >>news:Xns97EA7CC498C17tegger@207.14.116.130... >> >>>Finally I find ONE advantage to having rear disc brakes! LOL >>> >> >>I'm a lurker in a.a.h., and I have noticed that you seem very >>knowledgable. > > > > > I pretend well, huh? > > > > >>So, your comment about rear disc breake intrigues me. I >>thought rear discs were desirable? If not, why not? >> > > > > > Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing department. > Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound so hi-tech and > sporty. They enable the sales department to have greater success liberating > greenbacks from your wallet. > > Rear discs in a road-going FWD car are otherwise utterly useless and > trouble-prone. They never work hard enough to get very hot, so they rust, > seize and wear out with distressing haste and regularity unless the car is > used in SoCal or Arizona. > > Any more questions? > retrogrouch! in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. they also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking effectiveness. for a vehicle that potters about town getting groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, these benefits cease to be so theoretical. |
Re: Setting Toe
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:QLOdna4xzsJi3AbZnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >> > > retrogrouch! Who, me? Nah... > > in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. Absolutely. Which is why *real* performance cars used in *actual* performance applications use them. > they > also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking > effectiveness. True again (you're on a roll here, jim...) > for a vehicle that potters about town getting > groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, > these benefits cease to be so theoretical. > My point exactly. A grocery-getter (which describes 99% of road-going cars) does NOT need rear discs, and in fact is adversely affected by their presence. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:QLOdna4xzsJi3AbZnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >> > > retrogrouch! Who, me? Nah... > > in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. Absolutely. Which is why *real* performance cars used in *actual* performance applications use them. > they > also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking > effectiveness. True again (you're on a roll here, jim...) > for a vehicle that potters about town getting > groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, > these benefits cease to be so theoretical. > My point exactly. A grocery-getter (which describes 99% of road-going cars) does NOT need rear discs, and in fact is adversely affected by their presence. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:QLOdna4xzsJi3AbZnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >> > > retrogrouch! Who, me? Nah... > > in reality, disks offer better cooling, therefore less fade. Absolutely. Which is why *real* performance cars used in *actual* performance applications use them. > they > also offer more linearity between pedal pressure and braking > effectiveness. True again (you're on a roll here, jim...) > for a vehicle that potters about town getting > groceries, this is not an issue, but for one that gets driven hard, > these benefits cease to be so theoretical. > My point exactly. A grocery-getter (which describes 99% of road-going cars) does NOT need rear discs, and in fact is adversely affected by their presence. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
"R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in
news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns97EA8CB861B33tegger@207.14.116.130... >> Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing >> department. Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound >> so hi-tech and sporty. >> >> Any more questions? >> > > No, just a comment. I guess their marketing worked well, because I > didn't even think about it. Nor did I, back in the dark days of early 1991... My famous 1991 Integra famously has those infamous rear discs... > Back in the old days, many cars had drums > all around. Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > Then the front 2 discs came out, And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > and I guess people > thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars > in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
"R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in
news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns97EA8CB861B33tegger@207.14.116.130... >> Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing >> department. Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound >> so hi-tech and sporty. >> >> Any more questions? >> > > No, just a comment. I guess their marketing worked well, because I > didn't even think about it. Nor did I, back in the dark days of early 1991... My famous 1991 Integra famously has those infamous rear discs... > Back in the old days, many cars had drums > all around. Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > Then the front 2 discs came out, And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > and I guess people > thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars > in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
"R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in
news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: > "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns97EA8CB861B33tegger@207.14.116.130... >> Rear dics brakes in a FWD car are desirable to the marketing >> department. Buyers tend to get a woody over them because they sound >> so hi-tech and sporty. >> >> Any more questions? >> > > No, just a comment. I guess their marketing worked well, because I > didn't even think about it. Nor did I, back in the dark days of early 1991... My famous 1991 Integra famously has those infamous rear discs... > Back in the old days, many cars had drums > all around. Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > Then the front 2 discs came out, And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > and I guess people > thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars > in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. -- TeGGeR® The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message news:Xns97EADC0BC8473tegger@207.14.116.130... > "R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in > news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: > Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan > your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > > > >> Then the front 2 discs came out, > > > > And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! > Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > > > >> and I guess people >> thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars >> in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. > > > Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. > For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. > > > -- > TeGGeR® > > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large trucks and tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are some exceptions but most use drums. I hadn't really considered this until your above comments... Dave D |
Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message news:Xns97EADC0BC8473tegger@207.14.116.130... > "R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in > news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: > Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan > your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > > > >> Then the front 2 discs came out, > > > > And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! > Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > > > >> and I guess people >> thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars >> in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. > > > Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. > For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. > > > -- > TeGGeR® > > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large trucks and tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are some exceptions but most use drums. I hadn't really considered this until your above comments... Dave D |
Re: Setting Toe
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message news:Xns97EADC0BC8473tegger@207.14.116.130... > "R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in > news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: > Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan > your stops in advance, preferably in writing. > > > >> Then the front 2 discs came out, > > > > And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! > Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. > > > >> and I guess people >> thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars >> in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. > > > Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. > For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. > > > -- > TeGGeR® > > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large trucks and tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are some exceptions but most use drums. I hadn't really considered this until your above comments... Dave D |
Re: Setting Toe
Dave and Trudy wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns97EADC0BC8473tegger@207.14.116.130... > >>"R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in >>news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: >>Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan >>your stops in advance, preferably in writing. >> >> >> >> >>>Then the front 2 discs came out, >> >> >> >>And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! >>Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. >> >> >> >> >>>and I guess people >>>thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars >>>in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. >> >> >>Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. >>For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. >> >> >>-- >>TeGGeR® >> >>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ >>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large trucks and > tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are some exceptions > but most use drums. I hadn't really considered this until your above > comments... > > Dave D > > very few of the modern tour buses use drums these days, or at least, not on the front. the main reason drums are still used on large trucks, especially big rigs, is because of the air brake thing. unlike cars and lighter vehicles, they're "fail safe" which means their "natural" position is full on as opposed to off like a car. strong springs inside the drums press the shoes real hard against the drum, and the air system actuates against the springs to hold the shoes off the drum so the vehicle can roll. if the braking system fails, the brakes come on, and the 30+ ton cargo comes to a halt. hopefully. "fail safe" is much more complicated to implement on disk brakes, but real simple inside a drum. plus imo, a lot of domestic truck manufacturers are not exactly innovative pioneers in the engineering department - the quality of the chrome plating seems to get more attention from what i can see. |
Re: Setting Toe
Dave and Trudy wrote:
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > news:Xns97EADC0BC8473tegger@207.14.116.130... > >>"R Flowers" <rflowers@Tinbowlinggreen.com> wrote in >>news:FK6dnVW-malmfwfZnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@insightbb.com: >>Ever driven un-powered 4-wheel drums? GAWD they were awful. Terrible! Plan >>your stops in advance, preferably in writing. >> >> >> >> >>>Then the front 2 discs came out, >> >> >> >>And it was akin to a religious conversion: YES LAWD, AH SEE THE LIGHT!!! >>Discs were a sea-change compared to drums. >> >> >> >> >>>and I guess people >>>thought "Well, if 2 are good, let's do all 4!" I remember sports cars >>>in the 70s and 80s touting their 4 wheel discs. >> >> >>Yep. But there is a point of diminishing returns, and rear discs was it. >>For road-going, legal speed, grocery-getting FWD cars, of course. >> >> >>-- >>TeGGeR® >> >>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ >>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ > > Just one question...If disks are so much better, why do the large trucks and > tour buses still use drums on all axles? I know there are some exceptions > but most use drums. I hadn't really considered this until your above > comments... > > Dave D > > very few of the modern tour buses use drums these days, or at least, not on the front. the main reason drums are still used on large trucks, especially big rigs, is because of the air brake thing. unlike cars and lighter vehicles, they're "fail safe" which means their "natural" position is full on as opposed to off like a car. strong springs inside the drums press the shoes real hard against the drum, and the air system actuates against the springs to hold the shoes off the drum so the vehicle can roll. if the braking system fails, the brakes come on, and the 30+ ton cargo comes to a halt. hopefully. "fail safe" is much more complicated to implement on disk brakes, but real simple inside a drum. plus imo, a lot of domestic truck manufacturers are not exactly innovative pioneers in the engineering department - the quality of the chrome plating seems to get more attention from what i can see. |
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