NancyK

Thanks very much Tegger for your reply.
I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho
the car is not driven under severe conditions.
I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and
see if I can’t get a straight answer.
Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot
both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and
found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested
in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected.

NancyK

Thanks very much Tegger for your reply.
I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho
the car is not driven under severe conditions.
I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and
see if I can’t get a straight answer.
Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot
both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and
found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested
in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected.

NancyK

Thanks very much Tegger for your reply.
I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho
the car is not driven under severe conditions.
I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and
see if I can’t get a straight answer.
Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot
both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and
found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested
in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected.

NancyK

Thanks very much Tegger for your reply.
I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho
the car is not driven under severe conditions.
I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and
see if I can’t get a straight answer.
Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot
both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and
found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested
in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected.

NancyK

Tegger,
I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB?
Thanks....Nancy

"Tegger" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
>
> > In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil getting
> pumped
> >> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >> changes.
> >
> > There's plainly another reason, because it happens like this
> on my
> > father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> > Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >
> > There's something else going on with that particular engine.
> >
>
>
> Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> dealer.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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NancyK

Tegger,
I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB?
Thanks....Nancy

"Tegger" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
>
> > In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil getting
> pumped
> >> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >> changes.
> >
> > There's plainly another reason, because it happens like this
> on my
> > father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> > Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >
> > There's something else going on with that particular engine.
> >
>
>
> Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> dealer.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

--
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NancyK

Tegger,
I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB?
Thanks....Nancy

"Tegger" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
>
> > In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil getting
> pumped
> >> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >> changes.
> >
> > There's plainly another reason, because it happens like this
> on my
> > father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> > Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >
> > There's something else going on with that particular engine.
> >
>
>
> Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> dealer.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

--
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NancyK

Tegger,
I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB?
Thanks....Nancy

"Tegger" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
>
> > In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> > Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >
> >> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil getting
> pumped
> >> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >> changes.
> >
> > There's plainly another reason, because it happens like this
> on my
> > father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> > Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >
> > There's something else going on with that particular engine.
> >
>
>
> Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> dealer.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

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NancyK

Jim,

Interesting idea and plausible- I know nothing about cars as you might
gather but your explanation makes sense.

I’m the OP and wonder if you think that the lesser grade oil put in at
the dealer would still affect the throttle thing after about 5K miles.
Thats about the time it takes for me to notice it, even tho I always
change oil at 3750.

I’m going to call the original dealer and if I get the same run around
I am really going to be upset. Will report on what their verdict is.
Thanks

"jim beam" wrote
> Tegger wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> > news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
> >
> >> In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> >> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >>
> >>> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil
> getting pumped
> >>> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >>> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >>> changes.
> >> There's plainly another reason, because it happens like
> this on my
> >> father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> >> Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >>
> >> There's something else going on with that particular
> engine.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> > dealer.
> >
> from what i can gather, the dealer solution is to spray
> throttle body
> cleaner in there and that's all. i agree with elmo that there
> is
> something going on. i agree that it's got to be something
> from the oil
> vapor like you say, but it shouldn't be happening nonetheless.
>
> this kinda-sorta brings me to something i've been meaning to
> post for a
> while. for the past year, i've been running mobil 1 as a
> science
> project. i've also done a lot of reading around the subject
> of motor
> oils [and believe me, oil companies are slipperier than their
> product
> when it comes to keeping consumers in the dark]. here's part
> of what i
> conclude, and it may be relevant in this case:
>
> m1 /definitely/ has a lower oil burn-off rate than castrol
> gtx. [this
> may be relevant for your integra tegger.] what i find is that
> within
> the first 1000-odd miles of high speed driving, my civic will
> burn about
> half a quart of m1, but after that, it'll burn maybe another
> quart over
> the whole next 9000 miles that i run it. including initial
> fill, that's
> a total of 5 quarts over 10k. not too shabby for a clunker.
> with gtx,
> a fine oil btw, it'll burn a quart in about 1500 miles, and
> keep on
> doing so, so it's a constant monitoring and refill process.
> over 6k, it
> uses nearly 7 quarts including initial fill.
>
> some of this burn-off is due to volatile fractions in the base
> oil
> simply evaporating at high temperatures of operation - no
> surprises
> there. the difference is that m1 is much more isomerised than
> gtx and
> therefore has a much narrower spectrum of molecular weights in
> the base
> oil. therefore, there are fewer over-light fractions that can
>
> evaporate. now, if evaporation means this oil vapor from the
> crank case
> being able to circulate to the throttle body via the breather
> and
> condense into goo when the motor is turned off, then it's
> worth
> experimenting with a different oil with a lower evaporation
> rate to see
> if it mitigates the problem. it'll cost an extra $20-odd
> bucks at oil
> change time, but how much does it cost to have the dealer take
> off the
> intake and squirt cleaner every 50k?
>
> just a thought.

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NancyK

Jim,

Interesting idea and plausible- I know nothing about cars as you might
gather but your explanation makes sense.

I’m the OP and wonder if you think that the lesser grade oil put in at
the dealer would still affect the throttle thing after about 5K miles.
Thats about the time it takes for me to notice it, even tho I always
change oil at 3750.

I’m going to call the original dealer and if I get the same run around
I am really going to be upset. Will report on what their verdict is.
Thanks

"jim beam" wrote
> Tegger wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> > news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
> >
> >> In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> >> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >>
> >>> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil
> getting pumped
> >>> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >>> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >>> changes.
> >> There's plainly another reason, because it happens like
> this on my
> >> father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> >> Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >>
> >> There's something else going on with that particular
> engine.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> > dealer.
> >
> from what i can gather, the dealer solution is to spray
> throttle body
> cleaner in there and that's all. i agree with elmo that there
> is
> something going on. i agree that it's got to be something
> from the oil
> vapor like you say, but it shouldn't be happening nonetheless.
>
> this kinda-sorta brings me to something i've been meaning to
> post for a
> while. for the past year, i've been running mobil 1 as a
> science
> project. i've also done a lot of reading around the subject
> of motor
> oils [and believe me, oil companies are slipperier than their
> product
> when it comes to keeping consumers in the dark]. here's part
> of what i
> conclude, and it may be relevant in this case:
>
> m1 /definitely/ has a lower oil burn-off rate than castrol
> gtx. [this
> may be relevant for your integra tegger.] what i find is that
> within
> the first 1000-odd miles of high speed driving, my civic will
> burn about
> half a quart of m1, but after that, it'll burn maybe another
> quart over
> the whole next 9000 miles that i run it. including initial
> fill, that's
> a total of 5 quarts over 10k. not too shabby for a clunker.
> with gtx,
> a fine oil btw, it'll burn a quart in about 1500 miles, and
> keep on
> doing so, so it's a constant monitoring and refill process.
> over 6k, it
> uses nearly 7 quarts including initial fill.
>
> some of this burn-off is due to volatile fractions in the base
> oil
> simply evaporating at high temperatures of operation - no
> surprises
> there. the difference is that m1 is much more isomerised than
> gtx and
> therefore has a much narrower spectrum of molecular weights in
> the base
> oil. therefore, there are fewer over-light fractions that can
>
> evaporate. now, if evaporation means this oil vapor from the
> crank case
> being able to circulate to the throttle body via the breather
> and
> condense into goo when the motor is turned off, then it's
> worth
> experimenting with a different oil with a lower evaporation
> rate to see
> if it mitigates the problem. it'll cost an extra $20-odd
> bucks at oil
> change time, but how much does it cost to have the dealer take
> off the
> intake and squirt cleaner every 50k?
>
> just a thought.

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NancyK

Jim,

Interesting idea and plausible- I know nothing about cars as you might
gather but your explanation makes sense.

I’m the OP and wonder if you think that the lesser grade oil put in at
the dealer would still affect the throttle thing after about 5K miles.
Thats about the time it takes for me to notice it, even tho I always
change oil at 3750.

I’m going to call the original dealer and if I get the same run around
I am really going to be upset. Will report on what their verdict is.
Thanks

"jim beam" wrote
> Tegger wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> > news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
> >
> >> In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> >> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >>
> >>> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil
> getting pumped
> >>> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >>> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >>> changes.
> >> There's plainly another reason, because it happens like
> this on my
> >> father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> >> Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >>
> >> There's something else going on with that particular
> engine.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> > dealer.
> >
> from what i can gather, the dealer solution is to spray
> throttle body
> cleaner in there and that's all. i agree with elmo that there
> is
> something going on. i agree that it's got to be something
> from the oil
> vapor like you say, but it shouldn't be happening nonetheless.
>
> this kinda-sorta brings me to something i've been meaning to
> post for a
> while. for the past year, i've been running mobil 1 as a
> science
> project. i've also done a lot of reading around the subject
> of motor
> oils [and believe me, oil companies are slipperier than their
> product
> when it comes to keeping consumers in the dark]. here's part
> of what i
> conclude, and it may be relevant in this case:
>
> m1 /definitely/ has a lower oil burn-off rate than castrol
> gtx. [this
> may be relevant for your integra tegger.] what i find is that
> within
> the first 1000-odd miles of high speed driving, my civic will
> burn about
> half a quart of m1, but after that, it'll burn maybe another
> quart over
> the whole next 9000 miles that i run it. including initial
> fill, that's
> a total of 5 quarts over 10k. not too shabby for a clunker.
> with gtx,
> a fine oil btw, it'll burn a quart in about 1500 miles, and
> keep on
> doing so, so it's a constant monitoring and refill process.
> over 6k, it
> uses nearly 7 quarts including initial fill.
>
> some of this burn-off is due to volatile fractions in the base
> oil
> simply evaporating at high temperatures of operation - no
> surprises
> there. the difference is that m1 is much more isomerised than
> gtx and
> therefore has a much narrower spectrum of molecular weights in
> the base
> oil. therefore, there are fewer over-light fractions that can
>
> evaporate. now, if evaporation means this oil vapor from the
> crank case
> being able to circulate to the throttle body via the breather
> and
> condense into goo when the motor is turned off, then it's
> worth
> experimenting with a different oil with a lower evaporation
> rate to see
> if it mitigates the problem. it'll cost an extra $20-odd
> bucks at oil
> change time, but how much does it cost to have the dealer take
> off the
> intake and squirt cleaner every 50k?
>
> just a thought.

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NancyK

Jim,

Interesting idea and plausible- I know nothing about cars as you might
gather but your explanation makes sense.

I’m the OP and wonder if you think that the lesser grade oil put in at
the dealer would still affect the throttle thing after about 5K miles.
Thats about the time it takes for me to notice it, even tho I always
change oil at 3750.

I’m going to call the original dealer and if I get the same run around
I am really going to be upset. Will report on what their verdict is.
Thanks

"jim beam" wrote
> Tegger wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in
> > news:elmop-B6E8EF.10491010122006@nntp4.usenetserver.com:
> >
> >> In article <Xns98955EB50A647tegger@207.14.116.130>,
> >> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> >>
> >>> A sticky gas pedal is usually due to sludge and oil
> getting pumped
> >>> into the throttle body from the crankcase breather tube.
> The usual
> >>> reason for the oil is poor maintenance, specifically
> insufficient oil
> >>> changes.
> >> There's plainly another reason, because it happens like
> this on my
> >> father's 98 Odyssey (4 cylinder) and it happened like this
> on my 2000
> >> Accord, both of which get very regular maintenance.
> >>
> >> There's something else going on with that particular
> engine.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Then there ought to be a TSB on the problem. The OP needs to
> ask his
> > dealer.
> >
> from what i can gather, the dealer solution is to spray
> throttle body
> cleaner in there and that's all. i agree with elmo that there
> is
> something going on. i agree that it's got to be something
> from the oil
> vapor like you say, but it shouldn't be happening nonetheless.
>
> this kinda-sorta brings me to something i've been meaning to
> post for a
> while. for the past year, i've been running mobil 1 as a
> science
> project. i've also done a lot of reading around the subject
> of motor
> oils [and believe me, oil companies are slipperier than their
> product
> when it comes to keeping consumers in the dark]. here's part
> of what i
> conclude, and it may be relevant in this case:
>
> m1 /definitely/ has a lower oil burn-off rate than castrol
> gtx. [this
> may be relevant for your integra tegger.] what i find is that
> within
> the first 1000-odd miles of high speed driving, my civic will
> burn about
> half a quart of m1, but after that, it'll burn maybe another
> quart over
> the whole next 9000 miles that i run it. including initial
> fill, that's
> a total of 5 quarts over 10k. not too shabby for a clunker.
> with gtx,
> a fine oil btw, it'll burn a quart in about 1500 miles, and
> keep on
> doing so, so it's a constant monitoring and refill process.
> over 6k, it
> uses nearly 7 quarts including initial fill.
>
> some of this burn-off is due to volatile fractions in the base
> oil
> simply evaporating at high temperatures of operation - no
> surprises
> there. the difference is that m1 is much more isomerised than
> gtx and
> therefore has a much narrower spectrum of molecular weights in
> the base
> oil. therefore, there are fewer over-light fractions that can
>
> evaporate. now, if evaporation means this oil vapor from the
> crank case
> being able to circulate to the throttle body via the breather
> and
> condense into goo when the motor is turned off, then it's
> worth
> experimenting with a different oil with a lower evaporation
> rate to see
> if it mitigates the problem. it'll cost an extra $20-odd
> bucks at oil
> change time, but how much does it cost to have the dealer take
> off the
> intake and squirt cleaner every 50k?
>
> just a thought.

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Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that.
>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up
>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a
>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out
>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too.
>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had
>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I
>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk
>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally
>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible.
>>
>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel
>> has only 75K on it.
>
> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in
> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive
> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark
> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire,
> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always
> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo
> gasoline can give poor combustion too.



Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is
whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine,
as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, as well as the
obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators.



>>
>>
>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does
>> not.
>
> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the
> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized.
> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and
> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my
> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just
> when you're getting ready to change yours!



So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not.
Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was
200,000 miles ago.

And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going
on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel.



>
>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect.
>>
>>
>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like
>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing
>>>> will fix that except a rebuild.
>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the
>>> new one?
>>
>>
>>
>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any
>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards.
>
> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference
> between consumption before and after the head gasket change?
>
>>
>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds
>
> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and
> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes
> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause.




Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time
long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known
phenomenon.



>
>> and worn rings. Nothing
>> else.
>
> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you
> done a leakdown test?
>
>>
>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt.
>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt.
>>
>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the
>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand
>> miles.
>
> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is
> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that
> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed
> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a
> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will
> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get
> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem,
> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference.
>


Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might
drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. He reports that when he
did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny
smooth all over. My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket
change.

Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a
factor either. Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the
intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high
silica in the oil.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that.
>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up
>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a
>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out
>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too.
>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had
>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I
>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk
>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally
>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible.
>>
>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel
>> has only 75K on it.
>
> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in
> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive
> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark
> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire,
> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always
> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo
> gasoline can give poor combustion too.



Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is
whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine,
as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, as well as the
obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators.



>>
>>
>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does
>> not.
>
> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the
> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized.
> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and
> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my
> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just
> when you're getting ready to change yours!



So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not.
Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was
200,000 miles ago.

And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going
on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel.



>
>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect.
>>
>>
>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like
>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing
>>>> will fix that except a rebuild.
>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the
>>> new one?
>>
>>
>>
>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any
>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards.
>
> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference
> between consumption before and after the head gasket change?
>
>>
>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds
>
> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and
> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes
> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause.




Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time
long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known
phenomenon.



>
>> and worn rings. Nothing
>> else.
>
> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you
> done a leakdown test?
>
>>
>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt.
>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt.
>>
>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the
>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand
>> miles.
>
> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is
> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that
> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed
> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a
> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will
> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get
> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem,
> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference.
>


Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might
drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. He reports that when he
did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny
smooth all over. My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket
change.

Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a
factor either. Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the
intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high
silica in the oil.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that.
>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up
>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a
>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out
>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too.
>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had
>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I
>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk
>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally
>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible.
>>
>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel
>> has only 75K on it.
>
> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in
> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive
> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark
> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire,
> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always
> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo
> gasoline can give poor combustion too.



Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is
whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine,
as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, as well as the
obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators.



>>
>>
>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does
>> not.
>
> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the
> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized.
> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and
> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my
> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just
> when you're getting ready to change yours!



So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not.
Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was
200,000 miles ago.

And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going
on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel.



>
>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect.
>>
>>
>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like
>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing
>>>> will fix that except a rebuild.
>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the
>>> new one?
>>
>>
>>
>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any
>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards.
>
> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference
> between consumption before and after the head gasket change?
>
>>
>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds
>
> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and
> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes
> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause.




Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time
long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known
phenomenon.



>
>> and worn rings. Nothing
>> else.
>
> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you
> done a leakdown test?
>
>>
>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt.
>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt.
>>
>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the
>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand
>> miles.
>
> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is
> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that
> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed
> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a
> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will
> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get
> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem,
> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference.
>


Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might
drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. He reports that when he
did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny
smooth all over. My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket
change.

Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a
factor either. Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the
intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high
silica in the oil.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/