TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

Paul S wrote:
> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
> filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
> is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
> this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
> after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
> noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
> it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
> That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
> off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
> with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
> filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
> leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
> on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
> and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
> with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
> ("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
> canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
> stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
> car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
> of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
> run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
> correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
> or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
> there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.
>
1. is there a chance that one old rubber gasket was still stuck to the
engine, and then you installed an oil filter with it's rubber gasket on
top? Common problem in the trade.

2. NEVER tighten a oil filter with a filter wrench! It shouldn't even
be necessary to do any more than what is printed on filters, hand
tighten 1/4 turn past where it stops screwing on freely.

3. the pipe nipple, a hollow threaded pipe that holds on a filter, often
has a retainer nut to lock it against the screw threads in the engine
block. Is that properly tight? If loose, the filter can lock against
the locknut, but, the pipe nipple that holds the filter on, could
actually be loose and the filter would leak.

Check out all the above, make it right, and then put new oil in the
engine. See if you have simply had a very close call! Best of luck!

Do let us know!

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

Paul S wrote:
> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
<snip waffly story>

the chances of total engine failure in that time frame is very slight.
what happened was that the old filter seal was stuck to the block, then
you put another on top of it with the new filter. the old one blew out
under the pressure.

simply refit a new filter - NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE FRAM - and refill
with oil.

seriously, don't use fram filters - not only are they terrible for the
problem you just experienced, they're not very good at filtering either.
if you want to go cheap, buy walmart st3593a filters. otherwise, buy
honda or denso filters online.

next time, learn to ALWAYS check for old gaskets stuck to the block.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

"Paul S" <pauls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hja823198kc9dq0fad7c5n937ea0sm84u3@4ax.com...
>
> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
> filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
> is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
> this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
> after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
> noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
> it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
> That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
> off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
> with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
> filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
> leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
> on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
> and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
> with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
> ("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
> canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
> stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
> car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
> of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
> run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
> correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
> or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
> there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.
>
>

As for the engine's future, the noise is the part that worries me. A minute
of idling without oil pressure is not a good thing but not normally a
catastrophe.

There are two main areas that you need to be concerned about: cam bearings
and crank bearings. Dunno about Hondas for sure, but the cam bearings I've
seen were just polished steel. I'm thinking that is where the noise came
from. They may survive, but I haven't had any experience with cam bearings
and oil starvation.

The second area, the crank bearings, are the part I've had experience with
:-( Crank bearings are normally indium plated, producing a pink surface
that is vital to proper operation. If the indium is stripped away by oil
loss the crank journal and the exposed base metal of the bearing will chew
at each other. Within a day of normal use you will be able to hear a soft
brushing sound; within a week it will become a rhythmic tap. In theory, I
suppose you could drop the pan and examine the accessible halves of the
crank bearings. It will be obvious whether the indium was ruined or not, and
the accessible halves of the journal bearings are the ones that receive the
pressure. On the rod ends, the upper halves receive the pressure but at
least those are accessible without removing the crank. The problem is: what
will you do if you find damage? You could replace the rod bearings and the
lower halves of the journal bearings, then hope for the best with the upper
halves of the journal bearings. It's a devil's choice.

Here's the thing: either there is damage or there is not. If there is damage
it will become apparent within a week - a month at the very outside - by the
sound. Trying to head off progressive damage to the crank bearings isn't the
same as fixing everything if they are damaged. Or... you dodged the bullet
and there is no bottom end damage. Cam damage is no fun, but can be repaired
for a semi-affordable amount without pulling the engine.

Best wishes.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

"Paul S" <pauls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hja823198kc9dq0fad7c5n937ea0sm84u3@4ax.com...
>
> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
> filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
> is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
> this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
> after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
> noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
> it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
> That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
> off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
> with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
> filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
> leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
> on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
> and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
> with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
> ("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
> canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
> stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
> car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
> of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
> run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
> correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
> or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
> there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.
>
>

Another thought comes to mind - it took some time for the oil pump to pump
all that oil out at idle. If there was any back-pressure where it was
leaking out, there was probably some oil making it to the bearings for part
of that time. That supports the choice to wait and see.

Mike

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Paul S" <pauls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hja823198kc9dq0fad7c5n937ea0sm84u3@4ax.com...
>> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
>> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
>> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
>> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
>> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
>> filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
>> is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
>> this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
>> after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
>> noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
>> it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
>> That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
>> off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
>> with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
>> filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
>> leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
>> on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
>> and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
>> with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
>> ("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
>> canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
>> stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
>> car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
>> of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
>> run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
>> correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
>> or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
>> there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
>> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.
>>
>>
>
> Another thought comes to mind - it took some time for the oil pump to pump
> all that oil out at idle. If there was any back-pressure where it was
> leaking out, there was probably some oil making it to the bearings for part
> of that time. That supports the choice to wait and see.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
probably spraying oil onto the belts that was making the noise. good
idea to replace them.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

jim beam wrote:

> probably spraying oil onto the belts that was making the noise. good
> idea to replace them.


Yea, that was my 'best case' choice.

Did the screeching continue after you added oil?

Did it continue for a few seconds after restart, then stop?
That might be a bad thing, implying that oil starved surfaces suddenly
recieved lubrication as the oil system represurized.

-Greg

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

Greg Campbell wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> probably spraying oil onto the belts that was making the noise. good
>> idea to replace them.
>
>
> Yea, that was my 'best case' choice.
>
> Did the screeching continue after you added oil?
>
> Did it continue for a few seconds after restart, then stop?
> That might be a bad thing, implying that oil starved surfaces suddenly
> recieved lubrication as the oil system represurized.
>
> -Greg

theoretically yes, but i've seen motors run dry, and they rarely squeal
- they just seize up. or they clatter if the bearings melt. squealing
is usually belts or clutch bearings.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

about the fram oil filter. they are good oil filters. probably the best for
the money they cost. you were probably turning the filter the wrong way with
your wrench and over tightened it. look for the old oil filter gasket still
stuck on the engine. i've never had that happen with a fram oil filter where
it would leave the old gasket on the engine but if it was over tightened
that much it's possible it got stuck on there. avoid cheapy purolator
filters because their gaskets do pop right off and will cause that problem
for you again. i highly doubt you did damage to your engine i just wouldn't
let it happen again. i do use an filter wrench to tighten my oil filters on
but not super tight just snugged up good. let us know what you find is
causing the leak.



"Paul S" <pauls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hja823198kc9dq0fad7c5n937ea0sm84u3@4ax.com...
>
> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
> filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
> is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
> this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
> after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
> noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
> it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
> That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
> off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
> with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
> filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
> leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
> on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
> and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
> with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
> ("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
> canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
> stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
> car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
> of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
> run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
> correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
> or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
> there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.
>

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:06:44 +0000, Jeff wrote:

> about the fram oil filter. they are good oil filters. probably the best
> for the money they cost. you were probably turning the filter the wrong
> way with your wrench and over tightened it. look for the old oil filter
> gasket still stuck on the engine. i've never had that happen with a fram
> oil filter where it would leave the old gasket on the engine but if it was
> over tightened that much it's possible it got stuck on there. avoid cheapy
> purolator filters because their gaskets do pop right off and will cause
> that problem for you again. i highly doubt you did damage to your engine i
> just wouldn't let it happen again. i do use an filter wrench to tighten my
> oil filters on but not super tight just snugged up good. let us know what
> you find is causing the leak.

But...but...you're only supposed to go hand tight then 1/4 turn.

And, it's been a while since I changed a filter on a Honda, but on my
Toyotas they seem to tighten as they go along.

I'm sure there's a torque spec somewhere...



>
>
>
> "Paul S" <pauls@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hja823198kc9dq0fad7c5n937ea0sm84u3@4ax.com...
>>
>> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
>> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
>> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
>> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
>> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil filter after I
>> changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this is only the
>> second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on this particular
>> vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks after starting
>> the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching noise within a
>> minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but it was a full
>> 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car. That's when I found
>> the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took off the Bosch filter
>> and put a new identical one on, then re-filled with new oil. This time I
>> actually tried to tighten it with an oil filter wrench, and I got it
>> very tight but it still had a leak (a slow leak this time) when I
>> started up the car. The filter which had been on there from the last oil
>> change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A, and it was real, REAL tight. I
>> tried and tried and tried to get it off with the oil filter wrench, and
>> finally had to use a lubricant ("liquid wrench") and so much force that
>> I actually crushed the canister. I mention this as a possible reason for
>> the leak if I stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my
>> engine??? The car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started
>> it up, though of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak.
>> But it did run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch
>> 3315 the correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I
>> stripped or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was
>> on there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
>> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.
>>
>>

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:44:45 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> seriously, don't use fram filters - not only are they terrible for the
> problem you just experienced, they're not very good at filtering either.
> if you want to go cheap, buy walmart st3593a filters. otherwise, buy
> honda or denso filters online.


Hmmm...i've used Fram filters for a while.

Of course, with Toyotas I use Toyota filters, since they were rated the
best filter by Consumer Reports (um...20 years ago!). Since I usually have
two or three cars that use the same filter, I buy them by the case!


Also, do you know who makes the Wal*Mart filters? I would think they would
be Fram or Purolater.

Another good filter (according to what I have read about filters, at any
rate) is Wix. They have two grades: Professional and Economy. Get the Wix
filter in the white and yellow box from CarQuest.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

On Apr 16, 10:24 pm, Paul S <p...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi - I had a very serious event happen tonight during an attempted oil
> change with my 2004 Honda Accord (LX, 4dr., 2.4 litre). In fact, I am
> wondering if I've ruined my car. I am sitting here writing this with
> 4.2 litres of 5W-20 synthetic all over my garage floor at the moment,
> all of which came gushing out from around a new Bosch oil
> filter after I changed the engine oil and started up the car. But this
> is only the second time I have changed my oil at home (first time on
> this particular vehicle), and I forgot to look under the car for leaks
> after starting the engine. I began hearing this horrendous screaching
> noise within a minute (yep....like metal grating against metal), but
> it was a full 10-15 seconds before I was able to turn off the car.
> That's when I found the 4.2 litres of oil all over the floor. I took
> off the Bosch filter and put a new identical one on, then re-filled
> with new oil. This time I actually tried to tighten it with an oil
> filter wrench, and I got it very tight but it still had a leak (a slow
> leak this time) when I started up the car. The filter which had been
> on there from the last oil change at the shop was a Fram CPH3593A,
> and it was real, REAL tight. I tried and tried and tried to get it off
> with the oil filter wrench, and finally had to use a lubricant
> ("liquid wrench") and so much force that I actually crushed the
> canister. I mention this as a possible reason for the leak if I
> stripped the threads. FIRST QUESTION: Have I ruined my engine??? The
> car sounded OK once I re-filled with new oil and started it up, though
> of course I had to turn it right back off with that leak. But it did
> run with no oil at all for about 15 seconds. Also, is a Bosch 3315 the
> correct oil filter for my car? And finally, is it possibe I stripped
> or warped the threads when taking off the Fram filter which was on
> there with 3 million foot pounds of torque? ANY ideas or suggestions
> would be very greatly appreciated. - Paul S.

You'd be surprised how long a car will run with no oil. I speak from
experience.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

On 17 Apr 2007 13:01:15 -0700, z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote:
>
>You'd be surprised how long a car will run with no oil. I speak from
>experience.

That's good to hear....I sure hope it's applicable in this case. Paul.

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:bpGdnddfn5p9XrnbnZ2dnUVZ_qarnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
> theoretically yes, but i've seen motors run dry, and they rarely squeal -
> they just seize up. or they clatter if the bearings melt. squealing is
> usually belts or clutch bearings.
>

That's been my experience. Unless they have hydraulic lifters (which clatter
like crazy without oil) there is usually little warning :-( A
sister-in-law asked me to look at her Buick, which died when she came to a
red light. She asked if it could be related to the banging noise she had
heard, and I felt cold. Sure enough, a socket on the crankshaft felt like I
had hooked up to a solid piece of metal. Seems the oil warning light had
burnt out and she never checked the oil or had it changed.

Mike

Mike

Re: TOTAL Oil Loss....Have I Ruined My Engine?
 

Jeff wrote:
> about the fram oil filter. they are good oil filters. probably the best
> for the money they cost.

Oh really? What information do you base this on? The construction
quality of Fram filters compared to others is hardly inspiring of
confidence.