Grumpy AuContraire

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2007 23:35:51 -0700, isquat@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
>>
>>>never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
>>>became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.
>>>
>>
>>Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
>>early 21st century.
>
>
> Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge
> technology for the next 50 years?
>
> As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or
> so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a
> television until then because they had tube technology?
>

Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum tube..



>>I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
>>a day, but that might just be me silly.
>
>
> Rebooting?
>
>
>>I wonder if the same
>>problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
>>or Tesla has a simpler system.
>
>
> What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the
> Prius.
>
>


A note regarding the Tesla, I believe that it is solely electric. I'm
following the sedan design closely as if it works out, it is not all
that far (costwise) from being within range from an economic standpoint.



>>Someone is going to buy that fat pig
>>anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
>>or so shaved for the rest of the population.
>
>
> What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius?
>
>
>>>Response: Prius
>>>isn't a subcompact <snip>
>>
>>That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted
>>it down with the nickel anchor.
>
>
> ??? The current Prius was designed for the ground up to be a mid-size
> hybrid car.
>
>

Gordon McGrew

On 23 Mar 2007 10:36:03 -0700, isquat@gmail.com wrote:

>On Mar 22, 8:49 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
>> On 21 Mar 2007 23:35:51 -0700, isq...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
>> >> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
>> >> became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.
>>
>> >Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
>> >early 21st century.
>>
>> Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge
>> technology for the next 50 years?
>>
>It was a piece of junk when it came out.
>The only notable part is the hybrid power train.

Certainly the most notable aspect of the car, but it is otherwise a
competent family vehicle. Comfortable and reliable.

>Remove that and you are left with an obviously shitty platform.

Why?

>> As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or
>> so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a
>> television until then because they had tube technology?
>
>Tubes have their place in high end audio. Just like the prius:
>niche technology adopted far wider than it should have been.
>Taxis and mail delivery: maybe. I don't see what use
>there is to the general public.

General transportation with excellent fuel economy. What's wrong with
that?

>> >I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
>> >a day, but that might just be me silly.
>>
>> Rebooting?
>
>http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ot-hybrid.html

Modified early production Prius being run in an unorthodox manner at
the Bonneville salt flats. This may have been related to the recall
problem discussed below. I don't recall any automotive reviews or
owner reports mentioning this as a problem, at least since the recall
was completed.


>> > I wonder if the same
>> >problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
>> >or Tesla has a simpler system.
>>
>> What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the
>> Prius.
>
>Design defects? You mean aside from being a boring piece of ? As

If you want to rant about boring pieces of , why don't you pick on
the Dodge Caravan? The Prius doesn't have the performance I would
personally prefer, but it is interesting in its unconventional
operation.

>for production defects there are plenty:
>http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyaut...s-hybrids.html
>http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyaut...s-hybrids.html
>if you google enough you'd find a bit more with the older
>Echo based crappola.

So, the car had a recall. Lots of cars have recalls. Why pick on
this one? The Prius has an excellent reliability record.

The old model wasn't as good as the new one in many respects, but it
is still more reliable than just about anything that isn't a Toyota or
Honda product.


>> > Someone is going to buy that fat pig
>> >anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
>> >or so shaved for the rest of the population.
>>
>> What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius?
>
>Same buggy electrical system I suppose.

I doubt it. The Tesla is pure electric. Why would its electrical
system have anything to do with a Prius. Other than the glitch with
the recalled 04/05s (which have all been fixed by now), what Prius
bugs are you referring to? Be specific.

>Too early to tell,
>but judging by the delayed shipment of the first ones
>they had serious problems going into production even
>with the helping hand of Lotus. In all fairness the first
>crop of bmw 3xx had their share of electrical problems also.
>The problem is: prius is not half the car beemer is.

Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius,
Tesla or BMW?

By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of . My personal
guess is that it will be an exciting piece of , assuming you can
get it somewhere fun to drive it without drastically depleting the
batteries. Buy a trailer and a pickup to haul it to the track.

Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328)
that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far
cheaper to operate. The BMW will have much more luxury and
performance, but you will pay a lot for it, probably twice as much.

For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either
of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW
is mostly a status symbol. Not that it isn't fun to drive and
modestly luxurious, but most buyers don't know what to do with the
performance and equivalent luxury could be had in a far less finicky
(and somewhat less expensive) Japanese car.

isquat@gmail.com

On Mar 22, 11:38 pm, "Bucky" <uw_badg...@email.com> wrote:
> On Mar 22, 8:43 am, isq...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > The one I was next to the other day in a parking lot DID have
> > the gasoline engine idling so I don't see where you pulled the
> > 90% number out of. From the tesla marketing materials?
> > That one surely does not run the motor at idle.
>
> man, you are skeptical. Tesla? that's an all-electric. which probably
> produces more emissions than a hybrid because the electricity is
> generated by burning coal, natural gas, and oil.
>
You are saying that the power plant that for example burns
diesel does so with more emissions than a diesel car does?
Nuclear plants produce relatively clean electricity
unless they blow up or the by products are disposed of improperly.
It's definitely easier to control the waste from immovable
plant than from hundreds of millions of cars (some of which
are even exempt from emissions testing in the US, and out
of USA I bet some countries don't even have a requirement to
test the cars as a part of an annual check).

Michael Pardee

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174671362.983547.81990@o5g2000hsb.googlegrou ps.com...
>
> http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ot-hybrid.html
>
He would have saved himself embarrassment if he had RTFM. Can't fault the
car for the driver's error.

Mike

Michael Pardee

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
newsjUMh.178064$5j1.165452@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum
> tube..
>

And high power or GHz+ transmitters and microwave ovens still use tubes.
There will always be conventional power trains, too, in trucks and
motorcycles. But just as most electronics applications today are solid state
it is a safe bet that passenger cars will be almost entirely hybridized (or
whatever comes next) in a handful of decades.

Change is something we either accept or not, but it occurs anyway because of
market forces or government fiat. I would not have predicted the complete
takeover of EFI in the US, but the requirements of emission control
outweighed the high cost and modest benefit. If CAFE comes back with a
vengeance the changeover to hybridization may be quicker than I expect. In
the end, the performance will be what the public will demand even if the
gov'ts don't.

"... 'cause it's understood I got a fuel injected engine under my hood!
What, all of you too?" Apologies to the Beach Boys.

Mike

jim beam

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
> newsjUMh.178064$5j1.165452@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> Even today, when one buys a CRT TV, that component is still a vacuum
>> tube..
>>
>
> And high power or GHz+ transmitters and microwave ovens still use tubes.
> There will always be conventional power trains, too, in trucks and
> motorcycles. But just as most electronics applications today are solid state
> it is a safe bet that passenger cars will be almost entirely hybridized (or
> whatever comes next) in a handful of decades.
>
> Change is something we either accept or not, but it occurs anyway because of
> market forces or government fiat. I would not have predicted the complete
> takeover of EFI in the US, but the requirements of emission control
> outweighed the high cost and modest benefit.

"modest benefit"??? gotta tell you dude, my injected civics are /way/
more reliable than any carburetted car i ever owned. that's no "modest
benefit". much easier to fix too. different, but definitely easier.

> If CAFE comes back with a
> vengeance the changeover to hybridization may be quicker than I expect. In
> the end, the performance will be what the public will demand even if the
> gov'ts don't.
>
> "... 'cause it's understood I got a fuel injected engine under my hood!
> What, all of you too?" Apologies to the Beach Boys.
>
> Mike
>
>
>

Bucky

On Mar 23, 5:27 pm, isq...@gmail.com wrote:
> You are saying that the power plant that for example burns
> diesel does so with more emissions than a diesel car does?

it's quite possible that the amount of emissions produced by the power
plant to produce the electricity to charge a Telsa car could be more
than the emissions than a gasoline car.

> Nuclear plants produce relatively clean electricity
> unless they blow up or the by products are disposed of improperly.

ok, but you cannot choose your power source when you use electricity.
The power sources all mixed in the electrical grid. And about 80% of
U.S. power comes from coal, oil, and natural gas.

http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/Stat1.html

isquat@gmail.com

On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
wrote:

the goddamn creation of the google braniacs lost my rant
about the shittiness of the Echo platform later stretched
into the modern day Prius here. Who wrote that composer widget???
Same guy who designed Echo?

> Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius,
> Tesla or BMW?

We are talking about a car versus a transportation implement
among other things. The Prius being the latter and Tesla/BMW
being the former.

>
> By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of . My personal
> guess is that it will be an exciting piece of , assuming you can
> get it somewhere fun to drive it without drastically depleting the
> batteries. Buy a trailer and a pickup to haul it to the track.
>
Where people in Elise/Exige would smoke you, get into an accident,
fix the front end, crash again and buy another Elise for the
amount of money you spent on the 500lbs heavier car.
Tesla is a no contender. It's too heavy.

> Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328)
> that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far
> cheaper to operate. The BMW will have much more luxury and
> performance, but you will pay a lot for it, probably twice as much.

??? If I compared it to G35/Z350 you would've discounted
my comparison less?

> For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either
> of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW
> is mostly a status symbol. Not that it isn't fun to drive and
> modestly luxurious, but most buyers don't know what to do with the
> performance and equivalent luxury could be had in a far less finicky
> (and somewhat less expensive) Japanese car.

It's a pity but you might be right. I leave in the ubercompetitive
part of california and forget that there are places with the
pace of life of the mide west. Maybe I should relocate to cure
my authomotive enthusiasm.

isquat@gmail.com

On Mar 23, 5:27 pm, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com>
wrote:
> <isq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174671362.983547.81990@o5g2000hsb.googlegrou ps.com...
>
> >http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ot-hybrid.html
>
> He would have saved himself embarrassment if he had RTFM. Can't fault the
> car for the driver's error.
>
Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study
the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement.

Michael Pardee

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174896946.103173.138450@y66g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...

> Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study
> the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement.
>
>

You've probably noticed there is a strong current of RTFM here. People who
don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were supposed
to change their timing belts or use only Honda fluids in their AT or PS.

I guess you are a baby-boomer like me, and remember when an owner's manual
was only to tell you where the switches and fuses were, or how to place the
jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse
than not knowing how to start the car!

Mike

Grumpy AuContraire

Michael Pardee wrote:
> <isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1174896946.103173.138450@y66g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>>Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study
>>the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement.
>>
>>
>
>
> You've probably noticed there is a strong current of RTFM here. People who
> don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were supposed
> to change their timing belts or use only Honda fluids in their AT or PS.
>
> I guess you are a baby-boomer like me, and remember when an owner's manual
> was only to tell you where the switches and fuses were, or how to place the
> jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse
> than not knowing how to start the car!
>
> Mike
>
>


Which I believe is a step backwards. Stepping away from standardization
in the end will hurt rather than help a manufacturer. It effects
everything from costs, selection and is a time consumer when life is
getting ever more complicated.

Since retiring, I've spent more time performing tasks which should be
"rolled in" regarding services, bill paying etc.

Maybe I should just sell everything and move to a tropical island and
just live off the land and take life one day at a time while ignoring
the useless squabbling going on in the world...

JT

(So long as the coconuts don't run out that is!)

isquat@gmail.com

On Mar 27, 4:47 am, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com>
wrote:
> <isq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1174896946.103173.138450@y66g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...
>
> > Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study
> > the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement.
>
> You've probably noticed there is a strong current of RTFM here. People who
> don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were supposed
> to change their timing belts or use only Honda fluids in their AT or PS.

For maintenance, yes it makes sense.

> I guess you are a baby-boomer like me, and remember when an owner's manual
> was only to tell you where the switches and fuses were, or how

Not really. mid 30s. If I were older I
might have appreciated the softly sprung suspension
and intermittently noiseless operation while in the city.
On the highway it's useless naturally since the wind
noise drowns the engine noise unless you have a fart can
for exhaust I guess. Very unlikely on Prius :-]

to place the
> jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse
> than not knowing how to start the car!

Evasive maneuvers, eh?
Anyhow, that was just a one off car purpose built
i don't suppose you have to do the same in yours.

Gordon McGrew

On 26 Mar 2007 01:14:54 -0700, isquat@gmail.com wrote:

>On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
>
>the goddamn creation of the google braniacs lost my rant
>about the shittiness of the Echo platform later stretched
>into the modern day Prius here. Who wrote that composer widget???
>Same guy who designed Echo?
>
>> Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius,
>> Tesla or BMW?
>
>We are talking about a car versus a transportation implement
>among other things. The Prius being the latter and Tesla/BMW
>being the former.

What you are talking about is a performance car versus a family car.
The BMW is a reasonable substitute for a Prius if you have the money
and want to spend it on a car. The Tesla is a toy, and a pretty
expensive one at that. For the price, there are a lot of other toys
that I would rather own.

Face it, some people either can't afford a BMW or simply don't care
about performance and luxury enough to fork over the extra cash. But
even if you enjoy sneering at such people, why pick on Prius owners.
Why not sneer at Corolla owners or Civic DX owners or owners of
whatever boxes GM, Ford and Chrysler are selling now.


>> By all accounts, the Tesla is not a boring piece of . My personal
>> guess is that it will be an exciting piece of , assuming you can
>> get it somewhere fun to drive it without drastically depleting the
>> batteries. Buy a trailer and a pickup to haul it to the track.
>>
>Where people in Elise/Exige would smoke you, get into an accident,
>fix the front end, crash again and buy another Elise for the
>amount of money you spent on the 500lbs heavier car.
>Tesla is a no contender. It's too heavy.

Oh, don't get me wrong. There are a hell of a lot of cars that would
be more fun for less money, but the Tesla would still be fun (when it
is running.)

>> Isn't it a little stupid to be comparing the Prius to a car (BMW 328)
>> that costs 50% more? Not to mention that the Prius will be far
>> cheaper to operate. The BMW will have much more luxury and
>> performance, but you will pay a lot for it, probably twice as much.
>
>??? If I compared it to G35/Z350 you would've discounted
>my comparison less?

Uh, no. You are still comparing cars that cost $10K more. In the
case of the Z car you are comparing a $33K sports car to a $23K green
family car. Does that sound like a reasonable comparison to you?

>
>> For most buyers, the Prius would be the best choice by far over either
>> of these other cars. The Tesla will be wildly impractical. The BMW
>> is mostly a status symbol. Not that it isn't fun to drive and
>> modestly luxurious, but most buyers don't know what to do with the
>> performance and equivalent luxury could be had in a far less finicky
>> (and somewhat less expensive) Japanese car.
>
>It's a pity but you might be right. I leave in the ubercompetitive
>part of california and forget that there are places with the
>pace of life of the mide west. Maybe I should relocate to cure
>my authomotive enthusiasm.

That explains a lot. Automotive enthusiasm is not your problem.
Superficiality may be. It is fine to enjoy high performance and/or
luxury in an automobile. It is more than a bit tacky to look down on
people because they can't afford an expensive car or simply value
different things in a car than you do.

isquat@gmail.com

On Mar 27, 7:45 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> On 26 Mar 2007 01:14:54 -0700, isq...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Mar 23, 4:11 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >the goddamn creation of the google braniacs lost my rant
> >about the shittiness of the Echo platform later stretched
> >into the modern day Prius here. Who wrote that composer widget???
> >Same guy who designed Echo?
>
> >> Argument by meandering non sequitur? Are we talking about Prius,
> >> Tesla or BMW?
>
> >We are talking about a car versus a transportation implement
> >among other things. The Prius being the latter and Tesla/BMW
> >being the former.
>
> What you are talking about is a performance car versus a family car.
> The BMW is a reasonable substitute for a Prius if you have the money
> and want to spend it on a car. The Tesla is a toy, and a pretty
> expensive one at that. For the price, there are a lot of other toys
> that I would rather own.
>
> Face it, some people either can't afford a BMW or simply don't care
> about performance and luxury enough to fork over the extra cash. But
> even if you enjoy sneering at such people, why pick on Prius owners.
> Why not sneer at Corolla owners or Civic DX owners or owners of
> whatever boxes GM, Ford and Chrysler are selling now.
>

I don't sneer at Civic DX owners. Aside from the
lack of A/C that people in some climates don't
need there is nothing to sneer at. Stick a hybrid
powertrain in it and it's still a decent car.
Yep, corolla is a different story though.
At about 85+ mph the steering calibration
and testing just was not performed.
Nothing is wrong with PT cruiser.
I just prefer BARs over Tommy submachine guns.

> Oh, don't get me wrong. There are a hell of a lot of cars that would
> be more fun for less money, but the Tesla would still be fun (when it
> is running.)

I'm sure it will be a fun city car
for people who don't keep a habit of running
out of gas, er, charge.

> >??? If I compared it to G35/Z350 you would've discounted
> >my comparison less?
>
> Uh, no. You are still comparing cars that cost $10K more. In the
> case of the Z car you are comparing a $33K sports car to a $23K green
> family car. Does that sound like a reasonable comparison to you?
>
Yes. Bottom line z350 cost $27k and wrx cost about
$23. To me both are fine family cars if you keep
inlaws in shape. Nevermind the 08 wrx. prius
looks prettier than that :-[

>
> That explains a lot. Automotive enthusiasm is not your problem.
> Superficiality may be. It is fine to enjoy high performance and/or
> luxury in an automobile. It is more than a bit tacky to look down on
> people because they can't afford an expensive car or simply value
> different things in a car than you do.

I don't look down on people who can't afford expensive
cars. I look down on people who are buying
cars that, as a whole, are a piece of junk
even though there are much better choices for thousands less.
But I guess you are partially right. No contest.

Michael Pardee

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175013279.158992.92970@e65g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> On Mar 27, 4:47 am, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com>
> wrote:
>> <isq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1174896946.103173.138450@y66g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> > Behold, finally there is a car where a driver MUST study
>> > the manual before driving. Isn't that an achievement.
>>
>> You've probably noticed there is a strong current of RTFM here. People
>> who
>> don't RTFM too often come here because they didn't know they were
>> supposed
>> to change their timing belts or use only Honda fluids in their AT or PS.
>
> For maintenance, yes it makes sense.
>
>> I guess you are a baby-boomer like me, and remember when an owner's
>> manual
>> was only to tell you where the switches and fuses were, or how
>
> Not really. mid 30s. If I were older I
> might have appreciated the softly sprung suspension
> and intermittently noiseless operation while in the city.
> On the highway it's useless naturally since the wind
> noise drowns the engine noise unless you have a fart can
> for exhaust I guess. Very unlikely on Prius :-]
>

(Disclaimer - I have the sedan, not the hatchback.) The suspension is
typical of family cars of the same dimensions. The wind noise is not bad at
all; rather, road noise is mostly what the passengers hear. I had some
Pirellis on it that made a weird "flying saucer" noise on smooth pavement.
In town it is very hard to tell when the engine starts and stops, except for
the odd occasion when the engine lurches when it shuts down.

> to place the
>> jack. Now every owner who ignores the manual will suffer, and a lot worse
>> than not knowing how to start the car!
>
> Evasive maneuvers, eh?
> Anyhow, that was just a one off car purpose built
> i don't suppose you have to do the same in yours.
>
>

I'm not sure I follow you there, but the sedan version of the Prius is more
conventional in starting. Like any other auto tranny car, the "shifter"
(more properly, "mode selector") is left in Park and the driver puts his
foot on the brake while starting and while shifting into gear. IIRC the new
model, the hatchback, requires the car to be started with the brake
depressed. The version I have doesn't.

Mike