Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On Jan 28, 9:03 pm, "Bob Jones" <em...@me.not> wrote:
snip
>
> Toyotas tend to have softer and quieter ride. Hondas are more sporty and
> better handing.

Generally, previous generation Honda cars were sportier than their
current iterations. The mainstream products from both these companies
are none too sporty.

>Road noise has a lot to do with the kind of tires you put on too.

Yup, The Tire Rack asks users to provide input re. tire noise. That
said, Toyota/Lexus is known for insulation from road noise.

> Nissan Altima used to be a good car. Not sure if it has gotten better or
> worst in terms of quality.

It's hard to find a poor car in the family sedan class. Competition
works.
But if you look at last year's sales, Subaru and Hyundai are the
standouts with increases while the rest of the industry took it on the
chin.
Car shoppers should consider how they will use the car (city? highway?
lots of night driving? more than 2 kids?), where they live (snow
country? mountains?) and buy something that meets their own needs
(e.g., minivan).

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

Cameo wrote:
> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

My parents will soon replace their 1994 Toyota Camry after almost 14
years of excellent service. This car has not received a lot of care and
has held up amazingly well in spite of that.

The Toyota recalls and just a desire to see the other offerings may have
them looking at the Honda Accord.
Their two main criteria are reliability and overall comfort. Road noise
is definitely a factor. It also needs to have 4 doors, but will rarely
have someone in the back seat anymore. The least important thing for
them is how sporty it is.

They are also looking for something as close to their current Camry as
possible as far as price, (adjusted for 2010 of course), gas mileage,
and trunk capacity.

Looking at the Accord is a given, but I was wondering what other cars in
this general criteria range they should be checking out. I have been
researching it some and nothing but the Accord is really standing out so
far.

Thanks!

Pat

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On 1/28/10 10:14 PM, in article hjtnb4$han$1@news.eternal-september.org,
"Eternal Searcher" <eternalsearcherREMOVE7219@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Bob Jones wrote:
>
>> Nissan Altima used to be a good car. Not sure if it has gotten better or
>> worst in terms of quality.
>
> Nissan overall has seen its quality slip significantly over the years, to
> the point where it is probably the least reliable Japanese car maker. I
> wonder if we can blame that on the fact that they are owned by Renault?

I usually refrain from commenting on these blanket indictments, but since I
have some first hand experience with both recent Hondas and Nissans, I would
really like to know where you are getting this tidbit. It is simply not
true, especially with regard to the cars. Recent Nissans, with the sole
exception of the large trucks, are just as reliable as any Toyota or Honda
and more "sporty" than either one of them.

I have owned '96, '00 and '06 Hondas (and Odyssey, TL & CRV) and '96, '97,
'02, '08 & '09 Nissans (G20, I30, Pathfinder, Altima & G37). Currently in
my garage is an '06 Honda CRV and an '09 G37S. My daughter has an '08
Altima which has been flawless up to now.

The Nissan are significantly quieter than than Hondas across the board, ride
better and handle better. They haven't used timing belts since the early
'90s.

I do my own routine maintenance. The Hondas are more difficult to work on
(whose bright idea was it to put the oil filter above the exhaust on the
back of the engine anyway?).

The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

In article <C7886087.169EA%e.p.meyer@verizon.net>,
"E. Meyer" <e.p.meyer@verizon.net> wrote:

> My daughter has an '08
> Altima which has been flawless up to now.

Good God, an 08 ANYTHING would be flawless.

I hope that's not your criterion for "it's a good car"...

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

In article <C7886087.169EA%e.p.meyer@verizon.net>,
"E. Meyer" <e.p.meyer@verizon.net> wrote:

> The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
> when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
> summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
> warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
> nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.

Wow.

You were dealing with the wrong dealership.

Did you CALL American Honda and open a log on this yourself? Or did you
just talk to the dealership service manager and take his word for
everything?

Quick story: way back when, mid-80s, I owned a 79 Civic. Loved that
car. Gas tank had a bad design, the straps held moisture and the tank
rusted. Went to my dealer. "Yeah, that shouldn't have happened. Honda
has offered to buy the tank, if you'll pay labor." Done.

Based on that, a year later my GF bought a 79 Civic. Shortly
thereafter, rusting gas tank. "No problem," I said. She took it to the
dealer nearest her--different from mine--and explained it all. This was
on a Friday.

Friday afternoon at 4:00 she called me, very upset, and said that the
dealer apparently forgot about Honda buying the tank, and wanted her to
pay the full bill. When she reminded them about the campaign, they said
"Oh, well, you can leave the car here if you like, and we'll talk to the
zone rep when he comes by." "Bullshit," sez I. I called American
Honda, the zone office directly, and explained the situation to the guy
who answered. "Hang on," he said.

Ten minutes later he comes back. "Go pick up your car. You'll pay
labor only."

Remember, this was at 4:15 on a Friday afternoon.

We go into the dealership to pick up the car, and the service manager is
at the desk. She sees us and says, "Went over our heads, did you?" You
bet your ass we did, sweetie. you and your incompetence.

25 years later I still give my dealership all of my Honda business, and
they still treat people the same way--with respect. I've had several
repairs taken care of under a goodwill policy, repairs that technically
weren't covered by warranty but which a reasonable person would say,
"Oh, that shouldn't have happened." And I've never waited to get an
answer--the service manager makes the decision on the spot.

One time, I took it in at 7pm, and the service writer called the service
manager at home to get an answer to my request for goodwill
consideration. He granted it, too. Of course, he knows me, and I'm a
regular customer. That helps.

It also helps to know that this isn't coming out of the dealership's
pocket. American Honda gives the dealership discretionary funds to take
care of gray area crap like this.

One month out of warranty? American Honda, had you called them
directly, wouldn't have hesitated to fix the entire thing. Shoot, I had
an idle air control valve go out 9 months--but only 3K miles--out of
warranty. $300 repair, and the service manager didn't hesitate to take
care of it for me, no charge.

You could have worked the system better, had you come here and asked.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

E. Meyer wrote:

> The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
> when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
> summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
> warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
> nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.


Honda's environmental control system design logic -- by default,
toggling the A/C 'ON' every time air is directed onto the windscreen,
then leaving the A/C 'ON' even after blower output is set to dash or
floor -- undoubtedly contributes to a much higher than anticipated A/C
clutch duty cycle and that particular failure.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

"E. Meyer" <e.p.meyer@verizon.net> wrote in
news:C7886087.169EA%e.p.meyer@verizon.net:


>
> The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has
> been when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self
> destructed last summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one
> month past the 3 year warranty period. The entire AC system had to be
> replaced at a cost of nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even
> talk to me about it.
>


There is a TSB out on that problem. Cost to fix depends on how far the
fragments went into the system.

My boss has an '03 CR-V. Same problem, but he has 280,000 miles on the car,
so he's not going to bother to fix the A/C.

He's probably going to dump the CR-V in the spring, but probably not for
another CR-V since he doesn't like the styling of the new ones. This is his
second CR-V, plus his wife has a '97.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

In article <leCdnbHAW5sArf7WnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
News <News@Group.Name> wrote:

> E. Meyer wrote:
>
> > The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
> > when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
> > summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
> > warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
> > nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.
>
>
> Honda's environmental control system design logic -- by default,
> toggling the A/C 'ON' every time air is directed onto the windscreen,
> then leaving the A/C 'ON' even after blower output is set to dash or
> floor -- undoubtedly contributes to a much higher than anticipated A/C
> clutch duty cycle and that particular failure.

But the AC won't cycle below a certain outside temperature.

Above that temperature, it's prudent to have the defroster actually
provide dry, defrosting air to the windshield.

But simply aiming the air at the windshield doesn't trigger the AC.
Using the defrost button does, but not manually aiming the air at the
windshield.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <leCdnbHAW5sArf7WnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
> News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>
>> E. Meyer wrote:
>>
>>> The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
>>> when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
>>> summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
>>> warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
>>> nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.
>>
>> Honda's environmental control system design logic -- by default,
>> toggling the A/C 'ON' every time air is directed onto the windscreen,
>> then leaving the A/C 'ON' even after blower output is set to dash or
>> floor -- undoubtedly contributes to a much higher than anticipated A/C
>> clutch duty cycle and that particular failure.
>
> But the AC won't cycle below a certain outside temperature.
>
> Above that temperature, it's prudent to have the defroster actually
> provide dry, defrosting air to the windshield.
>
> But simply aiming the air at the windshield doesn't trigger the AC.
> Using the defrost button does, but not manually aiming the air at the
> windshield.


Nope. Not on the 2005 CRV SE at least.

There is no "DEFROST" option, other than the electrical heating elements
for mirrors and rear window.

The blower options are location-specific: cabin, mixed cabin/floor,
floor, and windscreen.

Selecting the windscreen option automatically triggers the A/C circuit
(which down to local temp minima in the teens F continues to operate).

De-selecting the windscreen option leaves the A/C on, which is a problem
when the driver is unaware that it has been left on (which many are).

Hence the greater A/C clutch duty cycle and adverse impact on MPG.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On 1/29/10 1:44 PM, in article
AoqdnSvABv4fp_7WnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "News" <News@Group.Name>
wrote:

> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article <leCdnbHAW5sArf7WnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>> News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>>
>>> E. Meyer wrote:
>>>
>>>> The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
>>>> when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
>>>> summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
>>>> warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
>>>> nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.
>>>
>>> Honda's environmental control system design logic -- by default,
>>> toggling the A/C 'ON' every time air is directed onto the windscreen,
>>> then leaving the A/C 'ON' even after blower output is set to dash or
>>> floor -- undoubtedly contributes to a much higher than anticipated A/C
>>> clutch duty cycle and that particular failure.
>>
>> But the AC won't cycle below a certain outside temperature.
>>
>> Above that temperature, it's prudent to have the defroster actually
>> provide dry, defrosting air to the windshield.
>>
>> But simply aiming the air at the windshield doesn't trigger the AC.
>> Using the defrost button does, but not manually aiming the air at the
>> windshield.
>
>
> Nope. Not on the 2005 CRV SE at least.
>
> There is no "DEFROST" option, other than the electrical heating elements
> for mirrors and rear window.
>
> The blower options are location-specific: cabin, mixed cabin/floor,
> floor, and windscreen.
>
> Selecting the windscreen option automatically triggers the A/C circuit
> (which down to local temp minima in the teens F continues to operate).
>
> De-selecting the windscreen option leaves the A/C on, which is a problem
> when the driver is unaware that it has been left on (which many are).
>
> Hence the greater A/C clutch duty cycle and adverse impact on MPG.

I suspect that might contribute to it, but the failure happened on a day
when it was 110 degrees F; to my wife; on her way to my daughter's wedding
rehearsal. The glow was definitely off Honda after this incident.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

E. Meyer wrote:
> On 1/29/10 1:44 PM, in article
> AoqdnSvABv4fp_7WnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@speakeasy.net, "News" <News@Group.Name>
> wrote:
>
>> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article <leCdnbHAW5sArf7WnZ2dnUVZ_oWdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> ,
>>> News <News@Group.Name> wrote:
>>>
>>>> E. Meyer wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The only major catastrophe I have experienced with a car since '96 has been
>>>>> when the AC compressor on the '06 Honda CRV completely self destructed last
>>>>> summer without warning at only 40,000 miles & one month past the 3 year
>>>>> warranty period. The entire AC system had to be replaced at a cost of
>>>>> nearly $2000 and American Honda would not even talk to me about it.
>>>> Honda's environmental control system design logic -- by default,
>>>> toggling the A/C 'ON' every time air is directed onto the windscreen,
>>>> then leaving the A/C 'ON' even after blower output is set to dash or
>>>> floor -- undoubtedly contributes to a much higher than anticipated A/C
>>>> clutch duty cycle and that particular failure.
>>> But the AC won't cycle below a certain outside temperature.
>>>
>>> Above that temperature, it's prudent to have the defroster actually
>>> provide dry, defrosting air to the windshield.
>>>
>>> But simply aiming the air at the windshield doesn't trigger the AC.
>>> Using the defrost button does, but not manually aiming the air at the
>>> windshield.
>>
>> Nope. Not on the 2005 CRV SE at least.
>>
>> There is no "DEFROST" option, other than the electrical heating elements
>> for mirrors and rear window.
>>
>> The blower options are location-specific: cabin, mixed cabin/floor,
>> floor, and windscreen.
>>
>> Selecting the windscreen option automatically triggers the A/C circuit
>> (which down to local temp minima in the teens F continues to operate).
>>
>> De-selecting the windscreen option leaves the A/C on, which is a problem
>> when the driver is unaware that it has been left on (which many are).
>>
>> Hence the greater A/C clutch duty cycle and adverse impact on MPG.
>
> I suspect that might contribute to it, but the failure happened on a day
> when it was 110 degrees F; to my wife; on her way to my daughter's wedding
> rehearsal. The glow was definitely off Honda after this incident.
>


Understandably!

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

"News" <News@Group.Name> wrote in message
news:AoqdnSvABv4fp_7WnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> There is no "DEFROST" option, other than the electrical heating
> elements for mirrors and rear window.
>
> The blower options are location-specific: cabin, mixed cabin/floor,
> floor, and windscreen.
>
> Selecting the windscreen option automatically triggers the A/C circuit
> (which down to local temp minima in the teens F continues to operate).
>
> De-selecting the windscreen option leaves the A/C on, which is a
> problem when the driver is unaware that it has been left on (which
> many are).
>
> Hence the greater A/C clutch duty cycle and adverse impact on MPG.

Hm, I never heard of this. I wonder if this is also the case on my '94
Accord. It would be good to know.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

Gordon McGrew wrote:

> That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
> Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power
> steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
> expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.

I don't know about the Venza, but I do know that the current Corolla has
electric power steering.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

E. Meyer wrote:

>> Nissan overall has seen its quality slip significantly over the years, to
>> the point where it is probably the least reliable Japanese car maker. I
>> wonder if we can blame that on the fact that they are owned by Renault?
>
> I usually refrain from commenting on these blanket indictments, but since I
> have some first hand experience with both recent Hondas and Nissans, I would
> really like to know where you are getting this tidbit. It is simply not
> true, especially with regard to the cars. Recent Nissans, with the sole
> exception of the large trucks, are just as reliable as any Toyota or Honda
> and more "sporty" than either one of them.

This is just a sample. They are from a Canadian source, but Canadian market
cars are usually exactly the same mechanically as U.S. market cars. Lots of
detail, but I have provided links below. In particular, the "close-coupled"
catalytic converter used with the 2.5L engine (used in the Altima and
Sentra) was known for self-destructing, resulting in catastrophic engine
trouble.

2002-2006 Altima:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/1...002-2006-2.htm

2000-2003 Maxima:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2008/1...-2000-2003.htm

2001-2006 Sentra:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/0...001-2006.htm/3

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On Jan 28, 8:16 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:34:24 -0800 (PST), billzz <bil...@wildblue.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
> >> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> >> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.
>
> >As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
> >after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the fly-
> >by-wire steering.
>
> That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
> Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power
> steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
> expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.

Hmm. Well, I do not know. All I know is that we had a short test-
drive, and my wife hated the steering. The salesman said that the
Toyota Venza had the latest "fly-by-wire" as they had in the latest
airplanes. What that meant, I did not know, but I associated it with
my wife's hating the steering. Of course salesmen say a lot of
things, and I should have looked under the hood, and I could have
determined what it was, but you know how it is....if your wife says
that she hates it, then that's it! So we left.