Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

billzz <billzz@wildblue.net> wrote in
news:bcb769fc-ee98-4c59-afb2-5c10bb7f1aaf@o16g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

> On Jan 28, 8:16 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:34:24 -0800 (PST), billzz
>> <bil...@wildblue.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Jan 27, 11:41 am, "Cameo" <ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
>> >> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first?
>> >> Wouldn't it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this
>> >> yet.
>>
>> >As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
>> >after test-driving the Toyota Venza. My wife absolutely hated the
>> >fly
> -
>> >by-wire steering.
>>
>> That can't be right. Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
>> Toyota steering can be pretty numb. Maybe you mean electric power
>> steering. Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
>> expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.
>
> Hmm. Well, I do not know. All I know is that we had a short test-
> drive, and my wife hated the steering. The salesman said that the
> Toyota Venza had the latest "fly-by-wire" as they had in the latest
> airplanes. What that meant, I did not know, but I associated it with
> my wife's hating the steering. Of course salesmen say a lot of
> things, and I should have looked under the hood, and I could have
> determined what it was, but you know how it is....if your wife says
> that she hates it, then that's it! So we left.



The amount of total bullshit that permeates Usenet is amazing. Is Usenet
the CB radio of the 21st Century? So it would seem.

Fact 1: ALL cars to this very minute have ordinary (and quite mechanical)
steering just like any vehicle since the very day steering was introduced.

Fact 2: This "fly by wire" thing refers to the THROTTLE, not the STEERING.

The newest power steering systems use electric motors rather than
hydraulics to effect the power-assist that makes it easier to turn the
steering wheel. This is the source of the confusion that results in the
mis-identification of electric assist as being "fly-by-wire".


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On 01/27/2010 11:41 AM, Cameo wrote:
> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

this "recall" stinks of politics/protectionism.

1. why would [politically naive] toyota have a recall after buying cts
sensors [with what, three failures?] when domestics using the same
supplier haven't the slightest whiff of recall?

2. google for reports of bmw stuck throttle problems and you'll find
plenty, but i don't see the national media whipping themselves up into a
xenophobic frenzy over it.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On 01/29/2010 07:16 PM, Tegger wrote:
> billzz<billzz@wildblue.net> wrote in
> news:bcb769fc-ee98-4c59-afb2-5c10bb7f1aaf@o16g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Jan 28, 8:16�pm, Gordon McGrew<RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:34:24 -0800 (PST), billzz
>>> <bil...@wildblue.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 11:41�am, "Cameo"<ca...@cameo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first?
>>>>> Wouldn't it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this
>>>>> yet.
>>>
>>>> As a matter of fact, we just took delivery of a Honda Pilot Touring,
>>>> after test-driving the Toyota Venza. �My wife absolutely hated the
>>>> fly
>> -
>>>> by-wire steering.
>>>
>>> That can't be right. �Surely the steering is a mechanical linkage.
>>> Toyota steering can be pretty numb. �Maybe you mean electric power
>>> steering. �Honda has that too. I'm not a big fan of it but I would
>>> expect the Honda system to have more road feel than Toyota.
>>
>> Hmm. Well, I do not know. All I know is that we had a short test-
>> drive, and my wife hated the steering. The salesman said that the
>> Toyota Venza had the latest "fly-by-wire" as they had in the latest
>> airplanes. What that meant, I did not know, but I associated it with
>> my wife's hating the steering. Of course salesmen say a lot of
>> things, and I should have looked under the hood, and I could have
>> determined what it was, but you know how it is....if your wife says
>> that she hates it, then that's it! So we left.
>
>
>
> The amount of total bullshit that permeates Usenet is amazing. Is Usenet
> the CB radio of the 21st Century? So it would seem.
>
> Fact 1: ALL cars to this very minute have ordinary (and quite mechanical)
> steering just like any vehicle since the very day steering was introduced.
>
> Fact 2: This "fly by wire" thing refers to the THROTTLE, not the STEERING.
>
> The newest power steering systems use electric motors rather than
> hydraulics to effect the power-assist that makes it easier to turn the
> steering wheel. This is the source of the confusion that results in the
> mis-identification of electric assist as being "fly-by-wire".
>
>

well said.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On 01/27/2010 06:28 PM, Tegger wrote:
> Making Car Sense<christopherasachs@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:60662132-82bb-42e4-b628-60bfa8a318d1@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>
>> I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
>> reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
>> trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
>> Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
>> fault or not. Any thoughts?
>
>
>
> You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your advertised
> website.
>
> ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of federal
> emissions-control regulations.

it really offers no advantages on emissions [other than maybe total CO2,
but that's also an economy thing]. but it does offer two significant
advantages for control:

1. cruise control is now a piece of cake.

2. automatic shifting is now a piece of cake.

for #2, old style shifting under full power meant having a transmission
with converters/clutches that could take the load/wear. not a trivial
mechanical solution, and thus, not cheap either. this was partially
addressed in the 90's with retarding ignition timing to reduce engine
output at the critical moment, which helps, but it's not a real
solution. with electronic throttle, you can have a quick and precise
power-down exactly in sync with the shift event, thus reducing
mechanical load, gas consumption, and offering the potential to make the
shift smoother. it's an excellent thing.


> In case anybody's wondering, steering is
> still steel-to-steel, as it has been since forever.
>
> There were two problems with the affected Toyotas:
> 1) aftermarket floor mats (the cop that died was driving a loaner that had
> aftermarket mats which had bunched up and kept the pedal down), and
> 2) poor-quality pedal/sensor assemblies from a Toyota supplier.
>
> The sensor problem has to do with gas pedal assemblies supplied to Toyota
> by a Canadian branch of a US company called CTS. This only affected
> American and Canadian-built vehicles. Japanese-built cars have Denso-
> supplied pedal assemblies. These are not subject to the sensor recall.
>
> Note that Toyota, like Honda and all other foreign-owned makes, is forced
> to buy a certain percentage of their parts from NAFTA-eligible suppliers in
> order for their NA-assembled vehicles to be exempt from the various import
> tariffs. Just about all of Toyota's recent recalls have involved NA
> suppliers. Doesn't say much for us, that's for sure.
>

indeed.

the dead stinking herring for me though, is why are none of the other
[domestic] manufacturers cts supplies subject to the same kind of
hysteria? you can count the number of toyota instances of "failure" on
one hand. but frod?

http://www.pr.com/press-release/46864
http://www.fordf150.net/forums/viewt...p?f=69&t=73480
http://www.safetyforum.com/fordsua/
etc.

why is the "media" not trying to whip the proles into a frenzy of
anti-frod fear and loathing?

and another thing: i've had a stuck [mechanical] throttle [cable] once.
all you do is knock the transmission into neutral and stop the car.
instances of death, allegedly due to stuck throttles are
incomprehensible to me - the car would need to have a stuck throttle,
stuck ignition switch, brake failure and stuck transmission - those do
not all happen at once. driver error otoh, well, some people just can't
accept responsibility for their own incompetence, otherwise known as
"natural selection".

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:zc6dncM8iMOY0fnWnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> On 01/27/2010 06:28 PM, Tegger wrote:
>> Making Car Sense<christopherasachs@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:60662132-82bb-42e4-b628-60bfa8a318d1
@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
>>> reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
>>> trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
>>> Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
>>> fault or not. Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your
>> advertised website.
>>
>> ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of
>> federal emissions-control regulations.
>
> it really offers no advantages on emissions [other than maybe total
> CO2, but that's also an economy thing]. but it does offer two
> significant advantages for control:
>
> 1. cruise control is now a piece of cake.
>
> 2. automatic shifting is now a piece of cake.



It's more than that, I've since learned: it's primarily for VSA and
Traction Control, not emissions or cruise.

VSA and TRAC are dependent on the ECM/PCM having complete control over
the throttle.



> all you do is knock the transmission into neutral and stop the car.
> instances of death, allegedly due to stuck throttles are
> incomprehensible to me - the car would need to have a stuck throttle,
> stuck ignition switch, brake failure and stuck transmission - those do
> not all happen at once. driver error otoh, well, some people just
> can't accept responsibility for their own incompetence, otherwise
> known as "natural selection".
>


And some more information I learned...

That "Smart Start" button is part of the problem. The 3-second delay
(there for liability reasons) must be terribly confusing in a panic
situation.

Those two-gate automatic shifters are another source of the problem. The
cop that died (in a loaner car) had tried to push his shifter into
Neutral, but had pulled the lever over into the "Sport" side of the
gate, which toggled between up and down in Drive only. In his panic, he
didn't realize that.

Also, apparently some people are not riding the brake /hard enough/.
They are doing it in stages, letting off between, which overheats the
brakes. If they would simply stomp the pedal as hard as possible, and
/keep the pedal down/, the brakes will overpower the engine and sto the
car.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On 01/30/2010 08:34 AM, Tegger wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:zc6dncM8iMOY0fnWnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> On 01/27/2010 06:28 PM, Tegger wrote:
>>> Making Car Sense<christopherasachs@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:60662132-82bb-42e4-b628-60bfa8a318d1
> @g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
>>>> reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
>>>> trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
>>>> Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
>>>> fault or not. Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your
>>> advertised website.
>>>
>>> ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of
>>> federal emissions-control regulations.
>>
>> it really offers no advantages on emissions [other than maybe total
>> CO2, but that's also an economy thing]. but it does offer two
>> significant advantages for control:
>>
>> 1. cruise control is now a piece of cake.
>>
>> 2. automatic shifting is now a piece of cake.
>
>
>
> It's more than that, I've since learned: it's primarily for VSA and
> Traction Control, not emissions or cruise.
>
> VSA and TRAC are dependent on the ECM/PCM having complete control over
> the throttle.

true, electronic throttle makes those relatively easy [and cheap] too.

>
>
>
>> all you do is knock the transmission into neutral and stop the car.
>> instances of death, allegedly due to stuck throttles are
>> incomprehensible to me - the car would need to have a stuck throttle,
>> stuck ignition switch, brake failure and stuck transmission - those do
>> not all happen at once. driver error otoh, well, some people just
>> can't accept responsibility for their own incompetence, otherwise
>> known as "natural selection".
>>
>
>
> And some more information I learned...
>
> That "Smart Start" button is part of the problem. The 3-second delay
> (there for liability reasons) must be terribly confusing in a panic
> situation.

i hadn't considered, that, but yes, you're right, that would be a major
problem. there should be a "KILL" button on all-electronic cars, just
like on race cars.


>
> Those two-gate automatic shifters are another source of the problem. The
> cop that died (in a loaner car) had tried to push his shifter into
> Neutral, but had pulled the lever over into the "Sport" side of the
> gate, which toggled between up and down in Drive only. In his panic, he
> didn't realize that.

natural selection. familiarize yourself with the vehicle controls
before driving.


>
> Also, apparently some people are not riding the brake /hard enough/.
> They are doing it in stages, letting off between, which overheats the
> brakes. If they would simply stomp the pedal as hard as possible, and
> /keep the pedal down/, the brakes will overpower the engine and sto the
> car.

indeed.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

On Jan 27, 8:28 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> Making Car Sense <christopherasa...@gmail.com> wrote innews:60662132-82bb-42e4-b628-60bfa8a318d1@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > I still have respect for Toyota, however, a once highly regarded
> > reputation will now take some time to recover from this. I've been
> > trying to find out if Toyota utilizes Drive-by-Wire technology that
> > Honda uses as their throttle system. Wondering if this design is to
> > fault or not. Any thoughts?
>
> You're a bit out of the loop on this. Funny that, given your advertised
> website.
>
> ALL automakers now use throttle-by-wire. It's an aftershock of federal
> emissions-control regulations. In case anybody's wondering, steering is
> still steel-to-steel, as it has been since forever.
>
> There were two problems with the affected Toyotas:
> 1) aftermarket floor mats (the cop that died was driving a loaner that had
> aftermarket mats which had bunched up and kept the pedal down), and
> 2) poor-quality pedal/sensor assemblies from a Toyota supplier.
>
> The sensor problem has to do with gas pedal assemblies supplied to Toyota
> by a Canadian branch of a US company called CTS. This only affected
> American and Canadian-built vehicles. Japanese-built cars have Denso-
> supplied pedal assemblies. These are not subject to the sensor recall.
>
> Note that Toyota, like Honda and all other foreign-owned makes, is forced
> to buy a certain percentage of their parts from NAFTA-eligible suppliers in
> order for their NA-assembled vehicles to be exempt from the various import
> tariffs. Just about all of Toyota's recent recalls have involved NA
> suppliers. Doesn't say much for us, that's for sure.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

I appreciate your demonstration of being in the know, and true most
all manufactures use drive by wire technology, though, not all
vehicles use it, and not all vehicles use the same kind of technology;
same concept, but different technologies.

Yes, floor mats are an issue, however, after your post, Toyota
announced http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/t...ry-102572.aspx
what the actual problem is.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

Thus spake ACAR <dimndsonmywndshld@yahoo.com> :


>
>The Toyota floor mat issue has been around for a while. That didn't
>stop me from buying a new Sienna after putting 250K nearly trouble-
>free miles on a 1998 Sienna.

Here's what bugs me about the floor mat issue. My 96 Civic had a
recall due to sliding floor mats.Thirteen years later Toyota didn't
remember that? My Honda floor mats for my Fit have neat little clips
on the fronts that keep them from moving forward. Those little
"sticky-outty" things on the bottom of a mat only last for so long.

>
>YMMV
>
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

Re: Toyota's troubles Honda's fortune?
 

Cameo wrote:
> Really ... Where are wouldbe Toyota buyers turning now first? Wouldn't
> it be Honda? I wonder if there are any indication of this yet.

It looks like Ford, & Hyundai are the main beneficiaries. I have seen a
ton of Ford Fusion cars around.