Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

On May 24, 8:57 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Dave Kelsen wrote:
> > On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>
> >> bill wrote:
> >>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >>>> Tegger wrote:
> >>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
> >>>>>news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.co m:
> >>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
> >>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep out
> >>>>>> the competition.
> >>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
> >>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and compete,
> >>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling it.
> >>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology curve,
> >>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
> >>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
> >>>> their
> >>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
> >>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
> >>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about scratching
> >>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
> >>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured that
> >>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
> >>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
> >>>> bastards.
> >>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>
> >>>>> The domestics are
> >>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
> >>>>> displace
> >>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>
> >>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
> >>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
> >>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
> >>> hammer.
> >>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
> >>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
> >>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
> >>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
> >>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
> >>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
> >>> they're worth.
>
> >> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions on
> >> componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own personal
> >> favorite, production technology aka automation. absent /any/
> >> attention in those departments, american cars will forever remain
> >> utter crap.
>
> > Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
> > decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost added
> > by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the 'Big 3'
> > is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER VEHICLE*.
>
> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our cheap
> abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought, superior
> technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply cannot believe
> that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless there's something
> /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't control costs. blaming
> unions is just smoke designed to cover for total lack of balls in
> sorting problems out - if they exist. need more argument? look at
> europe. germany has unions /way/ more restrictive than us or even
> japan. labor over there is ridiculously expensive and they only have a
> 35 hour week!!! so how do they get anything done? automation!!! every
> time i see financial news footage on tv showing detroit auto workers
> assembling vehicles by hand, /i/ see stunted and stupid management that
> doesn't have the brains or the balls to sort out their production
> technology.
>
> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>
>
>
> > The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
> > strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
> > think about the process and engineering improvements that could be made
> > with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>
> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>
>
>
> > Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have made
> > smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most people
> > in the decision making process believed that the status quo would
> > prevail forever.
>
> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their fundamental
> management paralysis is the problem.
>
>
>
> > They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now. They
> > are hoisted on their own petard.
>
> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase for
> the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will underwrite
> /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get their act
> back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions were faced
> with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the latter. and
> now management and unions work closely so remaining workers are highly
> paid but also highly productive. there has to be a way, but i don't see
> detroit even trying.


everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.
The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring
freezes and overtime freezes, the government typically steps in and
caves to labor in the disputes.
An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers
strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!!
because they thought it would make some jobs redundent.
As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor
was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last
time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into
play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor.
the unions in europe are nothing next to our own.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

bill wrote:
> On May 24, 8:57 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>>>> bill wrote:
>>>>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>>>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
>>>>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep out
>>>>>>>> the competition.
>>>>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
>>>>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and compete,
>>>>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling it.
>>>>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology curve,
>>>>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
>>>>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
>>>>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
>>>>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about scratching
>>>>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
>>>>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured that
>>>>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
>>>>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
>>>>>> bastards.
>>>>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>>>>>>> The domestics are
>>>>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
>>>>>>> displace
>>>>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>>>>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
>>>>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
>>>>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
>>>>> hammer.
>>>>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
>>>>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
>>>>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
>>>>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
>>>>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
>>>>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
>>>>> they're worth.
>>>> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions on
>>>> componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own personal
>>>> favorite, production technology aka automation. absent /any/
>>>> attention in those departments, american cars will forever remain
>>>> utter crap.
>>> Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
>>> decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost added
>>> by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the 'Big 3'
>>> is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER VEHICLE*.
>> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
>> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
>> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our cheap
>> abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought, superior
>> technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply cannot believe
>> that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless there's something
>> /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't control costs. blaming
>> unions is just smoke designed to cover for total lack of balls in
>> sorting problems out - if they exist. need more argument? look at
>> europe. germany has unions /way/ more restrictive than us or even
>> japan. labor over there is ridiculously expensive and they only have a
>> 35 hour week!!! so how do they get anything done? automation!!! every
>> time i see financial news footage on tv showing detroit auto workers
>> assembling vehicles by hand, /i/ see stunted and stupid management that
>> doesn't have the brains or the balls to sort out their production
>> technology.
>>
>> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
>>> strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
>>> think about the process and engineering improvements that could be made
>>> with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have made
>>> smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most people
>>> in the decision making process believed that the status quo would
>>> prevail forever.
>> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
>> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their fundamental
>> management paralysis is the problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>> They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now. They
>>> are hoisted on their own petard.
>> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
>> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase for
>> the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will underwrite
>> /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get their act
>> back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions were faced
>> with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the latter. and
>> now management and unions work closely so remaining workers are highly
>> paid but also highly productive. there has to be a way, but i don't see
>> detroit even trying.
>
>
> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.

when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the
auto manufacturers collapse?

> The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring
> freezes and overtime freezes,

so what choice do they have if the industry collapses? 'cos their
precious jobs are sure gonna disappear quick if there's no industry left
to work in.

> the government typically steps in and
> caves to labor in the disputes.

great, prop up the insanity. sort the problem, don't band-aid it.

> An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers
> strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!!
> because they thought it would make some jobs redundent.

wow, where do you get your information? i live by one of the affected
ports. the unions didn't strike, they were locked out. and it wasn't
bar codes, it was hiring of non-union labor to do inventory management
rather than train existing labor.

> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor
> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last
> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into
> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor.
> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own.

you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there.
unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make
more for less. it ain't a union problem bud.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

bill wrote:
> On May 24, 8:57 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>>>> bill wrote:
>>>>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>>>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
>>>>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep out
>>>>>>>> the competition.
>>>>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
>>>>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and compete,
>>>>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling it.
>>>>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology curve,
>>>>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
>>>>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
>>>>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
>>>>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about scratching
>>>>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
>>>>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured that
>>>>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
>>>>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
>>>>>> bastards.
>>>>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>>>>>>> The domestics are
>>>>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
>>>>>>> displace
>>>>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>>>>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
>>>>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
>>>>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
>>>>> hammer.
>>>>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
>>>>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
>>>>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
>>>>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
>>>>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
>>>>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
>>>>> they're worth.
>>>> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions on
>>>> componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own personal
>>>> favorite, production technology aka automation. absent /any/
>>>> attention in those departments, american cars will forever remain
>>>> utter crap.
>>> Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
>>> decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost added
>>> by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the 'Big 3'
>>> is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER VEHICLE*.
>> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
>> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
>> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our cheap
>> abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought, superior
>> technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply cannot believe
>> that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless there's something
>> /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't control costs. blaming
>> unions is just smoke designed to cover for total lack of balls in
>> sorting problems out - if they exist. need more argument? look at
>> europe. germany has unions /way/ more restrictive than us or even
>> japan. labor over there is ridiculously expensive and they only have a
>> 35 hour week!!! so how do they get anything done? automation!!! every
>> time i see financial news footage on tv showing detroit auto workers
>> assembling vehicles by hand, /i/ see stunted and stupid management that
>> doesn't have the brains or the balls to sort out their production
>> technology.
>>
>> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
>>> strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
>>> think about the process and engineering improvements that could be made
>>> with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have made
>>> smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most people
>>> in the decision making process believed that the status quo would
>>> prevail forever.
>> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
>> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their fundamental
>> management paralysis is the problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>> They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now. They
>>> are hoisted on their own petard.
>> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
>> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase for
>> the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will underwrite
>> /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get their act
>> back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions were faced
>> with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the latter. and
>> now management and unions work closely so remaining workers are highly
>> paid but also highly productive. there has to be a way, but i don't see
>> detroit even trying.
>
>
> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.

when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the
auto manufacturers collapse?

> The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring
> freezes and overtime freezes,

so what choice do they have if the industry collapses? 'cos their
precious jobs are sure gonna disappear quick if there's no industry left
to work in.

> the government typically steps in and
> caves to labor in the disputes.

great, prop up the insanity. sort the problem, don't band-aid it.

> An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers
> strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!!
> because they thought it would make some jobs redundent.

wow, where do you get your information? i live by one of the affected
ports. the unions didn't strike, they were locked out. and it wasn't
bar codes, it was hiring of non-union labor to do inventory management
rather than train existing labor.

> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor
> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last
> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into
> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor.
> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own.

you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there.
unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make
more for less. it ain't a union problem bud.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

On May 24, 1:24 am, Dan Bloomquist <publi...@lakeweb.com> wrote:
> Useful Info wrote:
> > Read all about it, here:http://Muvy.org
>
> And the stupidity of this thread gets deeper.....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=klDlEVkZh0A
VW's 282 mpg is nothing compared to the Toyota Corolla that runs on
water. ;)

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

On May 24, 1:24 am, Dan Bloomquist <publi...@lakeweb.com> wrote:
> Useful Info wrote:
> > Read all about it, here:http://Muvy.org
>
> And the stupidity of this thread gets deeper.....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=klDlEVkZh0A
VW's 282 mpg is nothing compared to the Toyota Corolla that runs on
water. ;)

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

> > everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.
> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the
> auto manufacturers collapse?

Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up
to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand
assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant
engineers do you?

> > The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring
> > freezes and overtime freezes,
> so what choice do they have if the industry collapses? 'cos their
> precious jobs are sure gonna disappear quick if there's no industry left
> to work in.

they don't believe it'll happen.

> > the government typically steps in and
> > caves to labor in the disputes.
> great, prop up the insanity. sort the problem, don't band-aid it.

I never said it was the right thing to do, but I don't make
federal policy.

> > An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers
> > strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!!
> > because they thought it would make some jobs redundent.
>
> wow, where do you get your information? i live by one of the affected
> ports. the unions didn't strike, they were locked out. and it wasn't
> bar codes, it was hiring of non-union labor to do inventory management
> rather than train existing labor.

incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff
nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff.
It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology
implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168

> > As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor
> > was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last
> > time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into
> > play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor.
> > the unions in europe are nothing next to our own.
>
> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there.
> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make
> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud.

Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of
individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay
uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the
case in europe. Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is
not so pervasive as here.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

> > everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.
> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the
> auto manufacturers collapse?

Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up
to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand
assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant
engineers do you?

> > The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring
> > freezes and overtime freezes,
> so what choice do they have if the industry collapses? 'cos their
> precious jobs are sure gonna disappear quick if there's no industry left
> to work in.

they don't believe it'll happen.

> > the government typically steps in and
> > caves to labor in the disputes.
> great, prop up the insanity. sort the problem, don't band-aid it.

I never said it was the right thing to do, but I don't make
federal policy.

> > An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers
> > strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!!
> > because they thought it would make some jobs redundent.
>
> wow, where do you get your information? i live by one of the affected
> ports. the unions didn't strike, they were locked out. and it wasn't
> bar codes, it was hiring of non-union labor to do inventory management
> rather than train existing labor.

incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff
nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff.
It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology
implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168

> > As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor
> > was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last
> > time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into
> > play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor.
> > the unions in europe are nothing next to our own.
>
> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there.
> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make
> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud.

Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of
individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay
uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the
case in europe. Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is
not so pervasive as here.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46550138.36DFC080@hotmail.com...
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> >
>> > A 'stiff' vehicle will in fact exert much higher damaging g-forces on
>> > its
>> > occupants than one that does indeed have crush zones.
>> >
>> > Yet another classic example where so-called 'common sense' proves to be
>> > very
>> > unsensible.
>>
>> indeed - you want the extremities to deform and absorb shock, and the
>> passenger shell to be uncrushable.
>
> For clarification for the benefit of the unconvinced, the slow
> deformation of the
> crush/crumple zones provides relatively gentle deceleration compared to a
> vehicle
> that doesn't bend much.
>
> The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a
> cushion
> in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick wall
> because
> there's no 'give'.

True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into one
that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade that
crumples on impact. If I hit a rock wall or some other object with no give
then I better hope I'm not going very fast. The crush zones of both vehicles
together matters more than which vehicle crushes, unless you're donating
your passenger compartment as part of that crush zone.

>
> Graham
>
>

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46550138.36DFC080@hotmail.com...
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> >
>> > A 'stiff' vehicle will in fact exert much higher damaging g-forces on
>> > its
>> > occupants than one that does indeed have crush zones.
>> >
>> > Yet another classic example where so-called 'common sense' proves to be
>> > very
>> > unsensible.
>>
>> indeed - you want the extremities to deform and absorb shock, and the
>> passenger shell to be uncrushable.
>
> For clarification for the benefit of the unconvinced, the slow
> deformation of the
> crush/crumple zones provides relatively gentle deceleration compared to a
> vehicle
> that doesn't bend much.
>
> The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a
> cushion
> in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick wall
> because
> there's no 'give'.

True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into one
that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade that
crumples on impact. If I hit a rock wall or some other object with no give
then I better hope I'm not going very fast. The crush zones of both vehicles
together matters more than which vehicle crushes, unless you're donating
your passenger compartment as part of that crush zone.

>
> Graham
>
>

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

john doe wrote:

> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >
> > The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a
> > cushion in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick
> wall
> > because there's no 'give'.
>
> True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into one
> that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade that
> crumples on impact.

So you've got time to chosew hich car you're going to hit when you crash ?

Hit another stiff car and you're as badly off as hitting the brick wall.

Why are Americans never ever capable of thinking where their stupid ideas
totally fall down ? And why do you engage in this insane rush to buy ever
heavier cars to 'protect' yourselves whilst moaning about the ever-increasing
cost of running them because you're making them more fuel thirsty.

Do please THINK !

Graham

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

john doe wrote:

> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >
> > The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a
> > cushion in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick
> wall
> > because there's no 'give'.
>
> True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into one
> that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade that
> crumples on impact.

So you've got time to chosew hich car you're going to hit when you crash ?

Hit another stiff car and you're as badly off as hitting the brick wall.

Why are Americans never ever capable of thinking where their stupid ideas
totally fall down ? And why do you engage in this insane rush to buy ever
heavier cars to 'protect' yourselves whilst moaning about the ever-increasing
cost of running them because you're making them more fuel thirsty.

Do please THINK !

Graham

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

On 5/24/2007 7:57 AM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

> Dave Kelsen wrote:
>> On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>>
>>> bill wrote:
>>>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
>>>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep out
>>>>>>> the competition.
>>>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
>>>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and compete,
>>>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling it.
>>>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology curve,
>>>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
>>>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
>>>>> their
>>>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
>>>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
>>>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about scratching
>>>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
>>>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured that
>>>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
>>>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
>>>>> bastards.
>>>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The domestics are
>>>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
>>>>>> displace
>>>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
>>>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
>>>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
>>>> hammer.
>>>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
>>>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
>>>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
>>>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
>>>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
>>>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
>>>> they're worth.
>>>>
>>> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions on
>>> componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own personal
>>> favorite, production technology aka automation. absent /any/
>>> attention in those departments, american cars will forever remain
>>> utter crap.
>>
>> Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
>> decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost added
>> by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the 'Big 3'
>> is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER VEHICLE*.
>
> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our cheap
> abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought, superior
> technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply cannot believe
> that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless there's something
> /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't control costs. blaming
> unions is just smoke designed to cover for total lack of balls in
> sorting problems out - if they exist. need more argument? look at
> europe. germany has unions /way/ more restrictive than us or even
> japan. labor over there is ridiculously expensive and they only have a
> 35 hour week!!! so how do they get anything done? automation!!! every
> time i see financial news footage on tv showing detroit auto workers
> assembling vehicles by hand, /i/ see stunted and stupid management that
> doesn't have the brains or the balls to sort out their production
> technology.

I'm trying to find where I got that figure (the $1350 average); it might
have been US News, but maybe not. Anyway, the $100 figure for Toyota is
for the American-built model, as I understand it. They were able to
start with modern (at the time) facilities, automate a great deal, hire
non-union labor. They were also able to negotiate reasonable retirement
benefits.

I will continue to look for the source of those numbers - I saw it
within the last week - but I doubt I'll find it. Most stuff I read goes
by and if I don't capture it, I never see it again. So I can't back it
up - unless I do some additional research.

> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>
>>
>> The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
>> strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
>> think about the process and engineering improvements that could be made
>> with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>
> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>
>>
>> Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have made
>> smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most people
>> in the decision making process believed that the status quo would
>> prevail forever.
>
> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their fundamental
> management paralysis is the problem.

Their fundamental problem is paying for the improvements needed in
process and material. While it may be true that they are unable to
discern those needs, I don't believe it.


>> They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now. They
>> are hoisted on their own petard.
>
> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase for
> the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will underwrite
> /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get their act
> back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions were faced
> with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the latter. and
> now management and unions work closely so remaining workers are highly
> paid but also highly productive. there has to be a way, but i don't see
> detroit even trying.

They could address it today, and *begin* doing what is needed to fix it.
In my opinion, the unions' stand is simple: if they go the way of the
dinosaur, they'll by god take the automakers with them. That may not be
the case, but I think it is. You seem to believe that they'll take less
in lieu of nothing; I think they've decided that less isn't worth it.
FWIW, I do not think that union labor is the only problem GM et al has.
But it's a big problem, and I don't see how they'll resolve it.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
Without nipples, breasts would be pointless.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

On 5/24/2007 7:57 AM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

> Dave Kelsen wrote:
>> On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>>
>>> bill wrote:
>>>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
>>>>>> news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
>>>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep out
>>>>>>> the competition.
>>>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
>>>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and compete,
>>>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling it.
>>>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology curve,
>>>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
>>>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
>>>>> their
>>>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
>>>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
>>>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about scratching
>>>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
>>>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured that
>>>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
>>>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
>>>>> bastards.
>>>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The domestics are
>>>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
>>>>>> displace
>>>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
>>>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
>>>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
>>>> hammer.
>>>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
>>>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
>>>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
>>>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
>>>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
>>>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
>>>> they're worth.
>>>>
>>> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions on
>>> componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own personal
>>> favorite, production technology aka automation. absent /any/
>>> attention in those departments, american cars will forever remain
>>> utter crap.
>>
>> Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
>> decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost added
>> by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the 'Big 3'
>> is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER VEHICLE*.
>
> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our cheap
> abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought, superior
> technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply cannot believe
> that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless there's something
> /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't control costs. blaming
> unions is just smoke designed to cover for total lack of balls in
> sorting problems out - if they exist. need more argument? look at
> europe. germany has unions /way/ more restrictive than us or even
> japan. labor over there is ridiculously expensive and they only have a
> 35 hour week!!! so how do they get anything done? automation!!! every
> time i see financial news footage on tv showing detroit auto workers
> assembling vehicles by hand, /i/ see stunted and stupid management that
> doesn't have the brains or the balls to sort out their production
> technology.

I'm trying to find where I got that figure (the $1350 average); it might
have been US News, but maybe not. Anyway, the $100 figure for Toyota is
for the American-built model, as I understand it. They were able to
start with modern (at the time) facilities, automate a great deal, hire
non-union labor. They were also able to negotiate reasonable retirement
benefits.

I will continue to look for the source of those numbers - I saw it
within the last week - but I doubt I'll find it. Most stuff I read goes
by and if I don't capture it, I never see it again. So I can't back it
up - unless I do some additional research.

> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>
>>
>> The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
>> strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
>> think about the process and engineering improvements that could be made
>> with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>
> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>
>>
>> Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have made
>> smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most people
>> in the decision making process believed that the status quo would
>> prevail forever.
>
> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their fundamental
> management paralysis is the problem.

Their fundamental problem is paying for the improvements needed in
process and material. While it may be true that they are unable to
discern those needs, I don't believe it.


>> They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now. They
>> are hoisted on their own petard.
>
> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase for
> the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will underwrite
> /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get their act
> back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions were faced
> with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the latter. and
> now management and unions work closely so remaining workers are highly
> paid but also highly productive. there has to be a way, but i don't see
> detroit even trying.

They could address it today, and *begin* doing what is needed to fix it.
In my opinion, the unions' stand is simple: if they go the way of the
dinosaur, they'll by god take the automakers with them. That may not be
the case, but I think it is. You seem to believe that they'll take less
in lieu of nothing; I think they've decided that less isn't worth it.
FWIW, I do not think that union labor is the only problem GM et al has.
But it's a big problem, and I don't see how they'll resolve it.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
Without nipples, breasts would be pointless.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

Dave Kelsen wrote:
> On 5/24/2007 7:57 AM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>>>
>>>> bill wrote:
>>>>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>>>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
>>>>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> the competition.
>>>>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
>>>>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and
>>>>>> compete,
>>>>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology
>>>>>> curve,
>>>>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
>>>>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
>>>>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
>>>>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about
>>>>>> scratching
>>>>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
>>>>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
>>>>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
>>>>>> bastards.
>>>>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The domestics are
>>>>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
>>>>>>> displace
>>>>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
>>>>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
>>>>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
>>>>> hammer.
>>>>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
>>>>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
>>>>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
>>>>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
>>>>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
>>>>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
>>>>> they're worth.
>>>>>
>>>> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions
>>>> on componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own
>>>> personal favorite, production technology aka automation. absent
>>>> /any/ attention in those departments, american cars will forever
>>>> remain utter crap.
>>>
>>> Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
>>> decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost
>>> added by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the
>>> 'Big 3' is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER
>>> VEHICLE*.
>>
>> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
>> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
>> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our
>> cheap abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought,
>> superior technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply
>> cannot believe that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless
>> there's something /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't
>> control costs. blaming unions is just smoke designed to cover for
>> total lack of balls in sorting problems out - if they exist. need
>> more argument? look at europe. germany has unions /way/ more
>> restrictive than us or even japan. labor over there is ridiculously
>> expensive and they only have a 35 hour week!!! so how do they get
>> anything done? automation!!! every time i see financial news footage
>> on tv showing detroit auto workers assembling vehicles by hand, /i/
>> see stunted and stupid management that doesn't have the brains or the
>> balls to sort out their production technology.
>
> I'm trying to find where I got that figure (the $1350 average); it might
> have been US News, but maybe not. Anyway, the $100 figure for Toyota is
> for the American-built model, as I understand it. They were able to
> start with modern (at the time) facilities, automate a great deal, hire
> non-union labor. They were also able to negotiate reasonable retirement
> benefits.
>
> I will continue to look for the source of those numbers - I saw it
> within the last week - but I doubt I'll find it. Most stuff I read goes
> by and if I don't capture it, I never see it again. So I can't back it
> up - unless I do some additional research.
>
>> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>>
>>>
>>> The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
>>> strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
>>> think about the process and engineering improvements that could be
>>> made with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>>
>> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have
>>> made smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most
>>> people in the decision making process believed that the status quo
>>> would prevail forever.
>>
>> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
>> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their
>> fundamental management paralysis is the problem.
>
> Their fundamental problem is paying for the improvements needed in
> process and material. While it may be true that they are unable to
> discern those needs, I don't believe it.
>
>
>>> They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now.
>>> They are hoisted on their own petard.
>>
>> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
>> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase
>> for the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will
>> underwrite /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get
>> their act back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions
>> were faced with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the
>> latter. and now management and unions work closely so remaining
>> workers are highly paid but also highly productive. there has to be a
>> way, but i don't see detroit even trying.
>
> They could address it today, and *begin* doing what is needed to fix it.
> In my opinion, the unions' stand is simple: if they go the way of the
> dinosaur, they'll by god take the automakers with them. That may not be
> the case, but I think it is. You seem to believe that they'll take less
> in lieu of nothing; I think they've decided that less isn't worth it.
> FWIW, I do not think that union labor is the only problem GM et al has.
> But it's a big problem, and I don't see how they'll resolve it.

looking at the quality of detroit product, or the lack thereof, looking
at the level of innovation and development in detroit product, or lack
thereof, looking at the pipeline bereft of new product, or lack thereof,
/those/ are the fundamental problems. /they/ are the elephant in the
room. blaming unions, who undoubtedly contribute, is nevertheless
fundamentally missing the point. convenient, headline grabbing,
distractingly divisive, yes, but fundamentally missing the point.

bottom line: detroit has been asleep at the switch for 30 years. they
suck. sort out quality, [management], sort out reinvestment
[management], sort out pipeline [management] and yes, sort out the
unions, [management]. bleating about unions when none of the rest is
being addressed is utterly retarded.

Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
 

Dave Kelsen wrote:
> On 5/24/2007 7:57 AM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>> On 5/23/2007 8:48 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:
>>>
>>>> bill wrote:
>>>>> On May 22, 11:32 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>>> Broderick Crawford <bcrawford2...@roadrunner.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:4652c91f$0$4724$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>>>>>>> safety, Drive right and you won't need it. Safety is just a
>>>>>>>> protection scheme invented by the American car companies to keep
>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>> the competition.
>>>>>>> If that's the case, the plan isn't working very well.
>>>>>> that's the ironic stupidity of it! rather than re-invest and
>>>>>> compete,
>>>>>> detroit simply put lipstick on their pig and hoped to keep selling
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> now, domestic product is /so/ bad and /so/ behind the technology
>>>>>> curve,
>>>>>> it's hard to see how they could ever catch up. it's not like anyone
>>>>>> couldn't see this coming, not least detroit, and they were filling
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> pants with their fears. but then they had the reprieve of the suv
>>>>>> phenomenon when they were suddenly making 50% /NET/ profits on those
>>>>>> pieces of the garbage, and the japanese were standing about
>>>>>> scratching
>>>>>> themselves wondering what the people were buying those dumb-ass
>>>>>> vehicles for. but ever the pragmatists, the japanese soon figured
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> if that's what the round-eyes wanted, that's what they would get, and
>>>>>> suddenly the only thing detroit had left was taken away. dumb
>>>>>> bastards.
>>>>>> they deserve to go down in flames if they can't get smart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The domestics are
>>>>>>> losing market share left right and center. Isn't Toyota poised to
>>>>>>> displace
>>>>>>> GM in the #1 position in a few years?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not helping that the cost of medical insurance in the us amounts
>>>>> to $1500/vehicle, and that the union labor cost is $25/hour for
>>>>> uneducated high school dropouts who can barely be trusted to swing a
>>>>> hammer.
>>>>> These costs cut into the profit margins on the manufacturing
>>>>> end, and must be made up somewhere, and you can't really do it with
>>>>> efficiency improvements because those are capital intensive. so they
>>>>> make up for it on skimpy design cycle and poor tolerance machining, n
>>>>> other words, our cushioned american asses make crap cars because our
>>>>> union cocksuckers would rather make crap cars than get paid what
>>>>> they're worth.
>>>>>
>>>> it's not a union thing dude. it's management that makes decisions
>>>> on componentry specs, re-investment in new design and my own
>>>> personal favorite, production technology aka automation. absent
>>>> /any/ attention in those departments, american cars will forever
>>>> remain utter crap.
>>>
>>> Jim, one (not the only one, of course) of the reasons that poor
>>> decisions are made in these areas is the cost. The average cost
>>> added by health care and retirement packages for for laborers in the
>>> 'Big 3' is $1350; for Toyota, that figure is right at $100. *PER
>>> VEHICLE*.
>>
>> i don't think i buy those numbers. land, construction, utilities,
>> materials, labor, etc., are all phenomenally expensive in japan. they
>> have no natural resources and have to import everything. with our
>> cheap abundant land, natural resources, and one would have thought,
>> superior technology [we put a man on the moon remember] i simply
>> cannot believe that it costs more to produce a vehicle here. unless
>> there's something /seriously/ wrong with management and they can't
>> control costs. blaming unions is just smoke designed to cover for
>> total lack of balls in sorting problems out - if they exist. need
>> more argument? look at europe. germany has unions /way/ more
>> restrictive than us or even japan. labor over there is ridiculously
>> expensive and they only have a 35 hour week!!! so how do they get
>> anything done? automation!!! every time i see financial news footage
>> on tv showing detroit auto workers assembling vehicles by hand, /i/
>> see stunted and stupid management that doesn't have the brains or the
>> balls to sort out their production technology.
>
> I'm trying to find where I got that figure (the $1350 average); it might
> have been US News, but maybe not. Anyway, the $100 figure for Toyota is
> for the American-built model, as I understand it. They were able to
> start with modern (at the time) facilities, automate a great deal, hire
> non-union labor. They were also able to negotiate reasonable retirement
> benefits.
>
> I will continue to look for the source of those numbers - I saw it
> within the last week - but I doubt I'll find it. Most stuff I read goes
> by and if I don't capture it, I never see it again. So I can't back it
> up - unless I do some additional research.
>
>> bleating about costs? i don't buy it.
>>
>>>
>>> The American manufacturers can't get to Toyota's level under the
>>> strictures they operate within, but things could improve. Meanwhile,
>>> think about the process and engineering improvements that could be
>>> made with, say half of that $1250 per vehicle available.
>>
>> how many man-hours per vehicle?
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, they made their own bed; there was a time when they could have
>>> made smarter decisions and avoided this hole. But at that time, most
>>> people in the decision making process believed that the status quo
>>> would prevail forever.
>>
>> so fix it now!!! bleating about pensions liability relief and tax
>> concessions don't fix the problem - lack of addressing their
>> fundamental management paralysis is the problem.
>
> Their fundamental problem is paying for the improvements needed in
> process and material. While it may be true that they are unable to
> discern those needs, I don't believe it.
>
>
>>> They aren't in a position to make better engineering decisions now.
>>> They are hoisted on their own petard.
>>
>> they could fix it today. make the decision and execute. voluntary
>> redundancy. hiring freeze. overtime freeze. small salary increase
>> for the remainder. then AUTOMATE. the financial markets will
>> underwrite /substantial/ one-time charges if it means these morons get
>> their act back together. and getting back to costs, the german unions
>> were faced with the reality of suicide or cooperation. they chose the
>> latter. and now management and unions work closely so remaining
>> workers are highly paid but also highly productive. there has to be a
>> way, but i don't see detroit even trying.
>
> They could address it today, and *begin* doing what is needed to fix it.
> In my opinion, the unions' stand is simple: if they go the way of the
> dinosaur, they'll by god take the automakers with them. That may not be
> the case, but I think it is. You seem to believe that they'll take less
> in lieu of nothing; I think they've decided that less isn't worth it.
> FWIW, I do not think that union labor is the only problem GM et al has.
> But it's a big problem, and I don't see how they'll resolve it.

looking at the quality of detroit product, or the lack thereof, looking
at the level of innovation and development in detroit product, or lack
thereof, looking at the pipeline bereft of new product, or lack thereof,
/those/ are the fundamental problems. /they/ are the elephant in the
room. blaming unions, who undoubtedly contribute, is nevertheless
fundamentally missing the point. convenient, headline grabbing,
distractingly divisive, yes, but fundamentally missing the point.

bottom line: detroit has been asleep at the switch for 30 years. they
suck. sort out quality, [management], sort out reinvestment
[management], sort out pipeline [management] and yes, sort out the
unions, [management]. bleating about unions when none of the rest is
being addressed is utterly retarded.