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Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. >> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the >> auto manufacturers collapse? > > Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up > to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand > assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant > engineers do you? i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. > >>> The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring >>> freezes and overtime freezes, >> so what choice do they have if the industry collapses? 'cos their >> precious jobs are sure gonna disappear quick if there's no industry left >> to work in. > > they don't believe it'll happen. > >>> the government typically steps in and >>> caves to labor in the disputes. >> great, prop up the insanity. sort the problem, don't band-aid it. > > I never said it was the right thing to do, but I don't make > federal policy. > >>> An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers >>> strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!! >>> because they thought it would make some jobs redundent. >> wow, where do you get your information? i live by one of the affected >> ports. the unions didn't strike, they were locked out. and it wasn't >> bar codes, it was hiring of non-union labor to do inventory management >> rather than train existing labor. > > incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff > nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. > It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology > implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. > http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 i don't think you even read your own citation! > >>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor >>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last >>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into >>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. >>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. >> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. >> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make >> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. > > Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of > individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay > uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the > case in europe. well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action > Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is > not so pervasive as here. eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. >> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the >> auto manufacturers collapse? > > Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up > to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand > assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant > engineers do you? i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. > >>> The unions block attempts at automation, the unions block hiring >>> freezes and overtime freezes, >> so what choice do they have if the industry collapses? 'cos their >> precious jobs are sure gonna disappear quick if there's no industry left >> to work in. > > they don't believe it'll happen. > >>> the government typically steps in and >>> caves to labor in the disputes. >> great, prop up the insanity. sort the problem, don't band-aid it. > > I never said it was the right thing to do, but I don't make > federal policy. > >>> An example of the insanity of us unions was the dockworkers >>> strike a few years back, they were striking due to BAR CODES!! >>> because they thought it would make some jobs redundent. >> wow, where do you get your information? i live by one of the affected >> ports. the unions didn't strike, they were locked out. and it wasn't >> bar codes, it was hiring of non-union labor to do inventory management >> rather than train existing labor. > > incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff > nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. > It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology > implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. > http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 i don't think you even read your own citation! > >>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor >>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last >>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into >>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. >>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. >> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. >> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make >> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. > > Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of > individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay > uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the > case in europe. well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action > Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is > not so pervasive as here. eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
The combined zones of two vehicles will not prevent serious injury, or
death, if the terminal speed of the collision is too high. As one who designed crumple zone in the automotive industry, I can assure you properly belted passenger, riding is a vehicle in which the passenger compartment was no intruded upon, can and do die if the terminal speed of the 'third collision,' where one organs strike the skeleton, is too high. mike "john doe" <john.doe@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:46561947$0$500$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:46550138.36DFC080@hotmail.com... >> >> >> jim beam wrote: >> >>> >>> indeed - you want the extremities to deform and absorb shock, and the >>> passenger shell to be uncrushable. >> >> For clarification for the benefit of the unconvinced, the slow >> deformation of the >> crush/crumple zones provides relatively gentle deceleration compared to a >> vehicle >> that doesn't bend much. >> >> The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a >> cushion >> in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick wall >> because >> there's no 'give'. > > True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into > one that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade > that crumples on impact. If I hit a rock wall or some other object with no > give then I better hope I'm not going very fast. The crush zones of both > vehicles together matters more than which vehicle crushes, unless you're > donating your passenger compartment as part of that crush zone. > >> >> Graham >> >> > > |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
The combined zones of two vehicles will not prevent serious injury, or
death, if the terminal speed of the collision is too high. As one who designed crumple zone in the automotive industry, I can assure you properly belted passenger, riding is a vehicle in which the passenger compartment was no intruded upon, can and do die if the terminal speed of the 'third collision,' where one organs strike the skeleton, is too high. mike "john doe" <john.doe@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:46561947$0$500$815e3792@news.qwest.net... > > "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:46550138.36DFC080@hotmail.com... >> >> >> jim beam wrote: >> >>> >>> indeed - you want the extremities to deform and absorb shock, and the >>> passenger shell to be uncrushable. >> >> For clarification for the benefit of the unconvinced, the slow >> deformation of the >> crush/crumple zones provides relatively gentle deceleration compared to a >> vehicle >> that doesn't bend much. >> >> The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a >> cushion >> in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick wall >> because >> there's no 'give'. > > True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into > one that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade > that crumples on impact. If I hit a rock wall or some other object with no > give then I better hope I'm not going very fast. The crush zones of both > vehicles together matters more than which vehicle crushes, unless you're > donating your passenger compartment as part of that crush zone. > >> >> Graham >> >> > > |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
> >>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.
> >> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the > >> auto manufacturers collapse? > > > Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up > > to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand > > assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant > > engineers do you? > > i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. the simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! US auto makers lead the field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. for example, unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps navigation ALL originated in us cars, and were later implemented by other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. In europe their unions strike ONLY when they have good cause, not to prevent ing barcodes from eliminating a few jobs by streamlining the processes. > > incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff > > nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. > > It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology > > implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. > >http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 > i don't think you even read your own citation! And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still comes off making them look like childish twats. > >>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor > >>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last > >>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into > >>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. > >>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. > >> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. > >> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make > >> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. > > Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of > > individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay > > uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the > > case in europe. > > well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. > trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, > untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals > there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. > > http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. In the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers $33,000) salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and pricing. and as for french cars.... what french cars? Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead industries and jobs moved overseas. > > Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is > > not so pervasive as here. > eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they > get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the > whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a > problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to prove your point. I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, it isn't. you are just too ing stupid for words. I tried to deal with you rationally, but you just have your head too far up your ass. |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
> >>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed.
> >> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the > >> auto manufacturers collapse? > > > Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up > > to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand > > assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant > > engineers do you? > > i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. the simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! US auto makers lead the field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. for example, unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps navigation ALL originated in us cars, and were later implemented by other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. In europe their unions strike ONLY when they have good cause, not to prevent ing barcodes from eliminating a few jobs by streamlining the processes. > > incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff > > nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. > > It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology > > implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. > >http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 > i don't think you even read your own citation! And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still comes off making them look like childish twats. > >>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor > >>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last > >>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into > >>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. > >>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. > >> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. > >> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make > >> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. > > Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of > > individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay > > uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the > > case in europe. > > well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. > trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, > untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals > there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. > > http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. In the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers $33,000) salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and pricing. and as for french cars.... what french cars? Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead industries and jobs moved overseas. > > Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is > > not so pervasive as here. > eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they > get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the > whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a > problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to prove your point. I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, it isn't. you are just too ing stupid for words. I tried to deal with you rationally, but you just have your head too far up your ass. |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
<snip retardation> >you just have your head too far up your ass. > i must if i waste time responding to you! b-bye! |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
<snip retardation> >you just have your head too far up your ass. > i must if i waste time responding to you! b-bye! |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response. >>>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. >>>> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the >>>> auto manufacturers collapse? >>> Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up >>> to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand >>> assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant >>> engineers do you? >> i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. > > That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove > your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker > and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my company either. > the > simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the > unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china. > US auto makers lead the > field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they > were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. cite. > for example, > unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps > navigation ALL originated in us cars, wrong. unibody was citroen, france. the germans were into crash deformation zones in the 40's. if by "computers", you mean fuel injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel injection was usa, but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by californias emissions laws. the assembly line, was ford, us. gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k. > and were later implemented by > other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete > plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants > without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it, that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of them. and start again. happens in other union industries. > In > europe their unions strike ONLY when they have good cause, like 35 hours weeks??? that's a great cause! > not to > prevent ing barcodes from eliminating a few jobs by streamlining > the processes. read your own cites. > >>> incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff >>> nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. >>> It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology >>> implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. >>> http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 >> i don't think you even read your own citation! > > And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far > toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still > comes off making them look like childish twats. so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not contradicts it!!! > >>>>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor >>>>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last >>>>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into >>>>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. >>>>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. >>>> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. >>>> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make >>>> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. >>> Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of >>> individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay >>> uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the >>> case in europe. >> well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. >> trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, >> untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals >> there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. >> >> http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action > > nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The > redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line > of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many engineering grads here are going to work for that? > In > the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid > salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers > on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers > $33,000) in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers. > salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, > starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, > union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting > salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense. > Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now > with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and > pricing. really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads? > and as for french cars.... what french cars? er, peugeot, citroen, nissan... > Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota > factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead > industries and jobs moved overseas. and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china, along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point. > >>> Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is >>> not so pervasive as here. >> eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they >> get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the >> whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a >> problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. > > Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to > prove your point. as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go home. > I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or > that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker > mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, > it isn't. you've never been to europe!!! > you are just too ing stupid for words. I tried to deal > with you rationally, but you just have your head too far up your ass. > |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response. >>>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. >>>> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the >>>> auto manufacturers collapse? >>> Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up >>> to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand >>> assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant >>> engineers do you? >> i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. > > That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove > your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker > and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my company either. > the > simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the > unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china. > US auto makers lead the > field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they > were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. cite. > for example, > unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps > navigation ALL originated in us cars, wrong. unibody was citroen, france. the germans were into crash deformation zones in the 40's. if by "computers", you mean fuel injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel injection was usa, but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by californias emissions laws. the assembly line, was ford, us. gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k. > and were later implemented by > other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete > plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants > without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it, that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of them. and start again. happens in other union industries. > In > europe their unions strike ONLY when they have good cause, like 35 hours weeks??? that's a great cause! > not to > prevent ing barcodes from eliminating a few jobs by streamlining > the processes. read your own cites. > >>> incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff >>> nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. >>> It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology >>> implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. >>> http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 >> i don't think you even read your own citation! > > And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far > toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still > comes off making them look like childish twats. so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not contradicts it!!! > >>>>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor >>>>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last >>>>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into >>>>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. >>>>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. >>>> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. >>>> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make >>>> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. >>> Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of >>> individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay >>> uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the >>> case in europe. >> well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. >> trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, >> untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals >> there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. >> >> http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action > > nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The > redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line > of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many engineering grads here are going to work for that? > In > the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid > salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers > on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers > $33,000) in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers. > salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, > starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, > union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting > salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense. > Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now > with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and > pricing. really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads? > and as for french cars.... what french cars? er, peugeot, citroen, nissan... > Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota > factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead > industries and jobs moved overseas. and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china, along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point. > >>> Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is >>> not so pervasive as here. >> eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they >> get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the >> whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a >> problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. > > Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to > prove your point. as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go home. > I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or > that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker > mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, > it isn't. you've never been to europe!!! > you are just too ing stupid for words. I tried to deal > with you rationally, but you just have your head too far up your ass. > |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
Eeyore wrote: > > john doe wrote: > > >>"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >>>The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a >>>cushion in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick >> >>wall >> >>>because there's no 'give'. >> >>True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into one >>that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade that >>crumples on impact. > > > So you've got time to chosew hich car you're going to hit when you crash ? > > Hit another stiff car and you're as badly off as hitting the brick wall. > > Why are Americans never ever capable of thinking where their stupid ideas > totally fall down ? And why do you engage in this insane rush to buy ever > heavier cars to 'protect' yourselves whilst moaning about the ever-increasing > cost of running them because you're making them more fuel thirsty. > > Do please THINK ! > > Graham > I think that it is YOU who misunderstands here. Consider the fact that Honda Civics which once were small now weight at least a 1,000 lbs more than their original models. More weight demands more HP to move 'em around. All this (for the most part) in the name of safety when a good dose of common sense would suffice. Add to this, consumers demands for more room and performance. There is no guv'ment regulation stronger than that which exists in the US. Hell, I would prefer to have a EN1 engine in my '82 & '83 Civics rather than the EJ1 but such was not permitted. Oh, when you mention heavier and "stiff" cars, you're venturing into vintage tin, not today's SUVs. I will be the first to concede the rationale behind owning SUVs is practically no rationale at all... JT |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
Eeyore wrote: > > john doe wrote: > > >>"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >>>The crumpled metal may be what saved your life ! It's like they act as a >>>cushion in an accident whereas in stiff vehicle it's like hitting a brick >> >>wall >> >>>because there's no 'give'. >> >>True, but if I'm driving a stiff vehicle with no give, but I crash into one >>that has plenty then I'm still protected, like hitting a barricade that >>crumples on impact. > > > So you've got time to chosew hich car you're going to hit when you crash ? > > Hit another stiff car and you're as badly off as hitting the brick wall. > > Why are Americans never ever capable of thinking where their stupid ideas > totally fall down ? And why do you engage in this insane rush to buy ever > heavier cars to 'protect' yourselves whilst moaning about the ever-increasing > cost of running them because you're making them more fuel thirsty. > > Do please THINK ! > > Graham > I think that it is YOU who misunderstands here. Consider the fact that Honda Civics which once were small now weight at least a 1,000 lbs more than their original models. More weight demands more HP to move 'em around. All this (for the most part) in the name of safety when a good dose of common sense would suffice. Add to this, consumers demands for more room and performance. There is no guv'ment regulation stronger than that which exists in the US. Hell, I would prefer to have a EN1 engine in my '82 & '83 Civics rather than the EJ1 but such was not permitted. Oh, when you mention heavier and "stiff" cars, you're venturing into vintage tin, not today's SUVs. I will be the first to concede the rationale behind owning SUVs is practically no rationale at all... JT |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
On May 25, 1:24 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> bill wrote: > > on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response. > > >>>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. > >>>> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the > >>>> auto manufacturers collapse? > >>> Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up > >>> to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand > >>> assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant > >>> engineers do you? > >> i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. > > > That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove > > your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker > > and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. > > wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my > company either. > > > the > > simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the > > unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! > > so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the > legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union > protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is > highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has > unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china. > > > US auto makers lead the > > field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they > > were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. > > cite. > > > for example, > > unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps > > navigation ALL originated in us cars, > > wrong. unibody was citroen, france. in partnership with chrysler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque > the germans were into crash deformation zones in the 40's. I stand corrected. > if by "computers", you mean fuel injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel injection was usa, Well, still happened :) but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by californias emissions laws. no, I meant the ECU. again, you'll just say it was installed to deal with epa laws, but it still happened here. As did the catalytic converter. > the assembly line, was ford, us. gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your > body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k. here's an interesting bit. anyway, until pretty recently, the us auto industry was at least fully competitive with anyone's best. What changed? I'll tell you, the technology changed and the companies were prevented from implementing it due to UCS interference (union suckers) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...latives#Firsts > > and were later implemented by > > other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete > > plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants > > without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. > sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it, > that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of > them. and start again. happens in other union industries. If management doesn't have the balls to face down a strike, lose billions of dollars and precious market share, and then have the federal government step in and decide what to do based on what will win votes you mean? look, this isn't complicated, the unions are strangling the industry, they aren't the only problem, but they are the biggest. > >>> incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff > >>> nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. > >>> It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology > >>> implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. > >>>http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 > >> i don't think you even read your own citation! > > And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far > > toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still > > comes off making them look like childish twats. > so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not > contradicts it!!! It does support what I said. they had a dispute about freaking bar codes. I was wrong about strike vs lockout, but it really amounts to the same thing, the unions refused to use the new tech, and the company said you have to. the clerical staff is and was nonunion, so the union claims that they were trying to exclude the clerical staff from the union were bullshit. It's a little hard to find decent objective analysis of political bullshit that happened 10 years ago, so I'm going to have to ask you to look past the spin they put on that one. > >>>>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor > >>>>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last > >>>>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into > >>>>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. > >>>>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. > >>>> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. > >>>> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make > >>>> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. > >>> Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of > >>> individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay > >>> uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the > >>> case in europe. > >> well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. > >> trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, > >> untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals > >> there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. > >>http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action > > nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The > > redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line > > of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. > eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many > engineering grads here are going to work for that? All of them. starting salary for ALL branches of engineering is 40k plus or minus 5 depending on location and specialty. > > In > > the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid > > salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers > > on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers > > $33,000) > in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers. As they do here. > > salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, > > starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, > > union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting > > salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. > > if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense. Okay, thing 1 was that I was talking about union pay scales compared to professional pay scales, and pointing out that they are consistently higher. > > Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now > > with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and > > pricing. > really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads? Lag. unions work great as long as nothing changes. you'll note that for the past 20 years, bmw and mercedes have been declining HARD in quality, reliability and overall desireability. besides, luxury cars are a bit of a special case. > > and as for french cars.... what french cars? > er, peugeot, citroen, nissan... Nissan is japanese and the rest of them combined do not amount to the sales on the toyota prius. France effectively has no auto industry. > > Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota > > factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead > > industries and jobs moved overseas. > > and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china, > along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology > at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point. the reason we don't do that is the unions will not allow it. very simple, and very clearly true. Automation eliminates jobs. > >>> Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is > >>> not so pervasive as here. > >> eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they > >> get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the > >> whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a > >> problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. > > Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to > > prove your point. > as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go > home. Okay, but we're trying to answer the "why can't they make it?" question, and the answer is very simple. Unions. 100% of all union auto manufacturers in the world are losing market share compared to 100% of the non-union manufacturers which are gaining. Those numbers do not lie. No bleating, No squalking, just the cold facts, unions and long term success are incompatible. > > I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or > > that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker > > mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, > > it isn't. > you've never been to europe!!! As it happens, and not that it's relevent, I've spent over a year in europe, married a woman from there, worked with 3 companies, and been in 7 countries. |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
On May 25, 1:24 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> bill wrote: > > on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response. > > >>>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. > >>>> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the > >>>> auto manufacturers collapse? > >>> Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up > >>> to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand > >>> assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant > >>> engineers do you? > >> i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. > > > That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove > > your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker > > and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. > > wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my > company either. > > > the > > simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the > > unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! > > so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the > legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union > protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is > highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has > unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china. > > > US auto makers lead the > > field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they > > were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. > > cite. > > > for example, > > unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps > > navigation ALL originated in us cars, > > wrong. unibody was citroen, france. in partnership with chrysler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque > the germans were into crash deformation zones in the 40's. I stand corrected. > if by "computers", you mean fuel injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel injection was usa, Well, still happened :) but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by californias emissions laws. no, I meant the ECU. again, you'll just say it was installed to deal with epa laws, but it still happened here. As did the catalytic converter. > the assembly line, was ford, us. gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your > body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k. here's an interesting bit. anyway, until pretty recently, the us auto industry was at least fully competitive with anyone's best. What changed? I'll tell you, the technology changed and the companies were prevented from implementing it due to UCS interference (union suckers) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...latives#Firsts > > and were later implemented by > > other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete > > plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants > > without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. > sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it, > that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of > them. and start again. happens in other union industries. If management doesn't have the balls to face down a strike, lose billions of dollars and precious market share, and then have the federal government step in and decide what to do based on what will win votes you mean? look, this isn't complicated, the unions are strangling the industry, they aren't the only problem, but they are the biggest. > >>> incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff > >>> nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. > >>> It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology > >>> implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. > >>>http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 > >> i don't think you even read your own citation! > > And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far > > toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still > > comes off making them look like childish twats. > so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not > contradicts it!!! It does support what I said. they had a dispute about freaking bar codes. I was wrong about strike vs lockout, but it really amounts to the same thing, the unions refused to use the new tech, and the company said you have to. the clerical staff is and was nonunion, so the union claims that they were trying to exclude the clerical staff from the union were bullshit. It's a little hard to find decent objective analysis of political bullshit that happened 10 years ago, so I'm going to have to ask you to look past the spin they put on that one. > >>>>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor > >>>>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last > >>>>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into > >>>>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. > >>>>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. > >>>> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. > >>>> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make > >>>> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. > >>> Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of > >>> individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay > >>> uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the > >>> case in europe. > >> well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. > >> trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, > >> untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals > >> there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. > >>http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action > > nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The > > redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line > > of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. > eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many > engineering grads here are going to work for that? All of them. starting salary for ALL branches of engineering is 40k plus or minus 5 depending on location and specialty. > > In > > the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid > > salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers > > on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers > > $33,000) > in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers. As they do here. > > salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, > > starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, > > union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting > > salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. > > if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense. Okay, thing 1 was that I was talking about union pay scales compared to professional pay scales, and pointing out that they are consistently higher. > > Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now > > with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and > > pricing. > really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads? Lag. unions work great as long as nothing changes. you'll note that for the past 20 years, bmw and mercedes have been declining HARD in quality, reliability and overall desireability. besides, luxury cars are a bit of a special case. > > and as for french cars.... what french cars? > er, peugeot, citroen, nissan... Nissan is japanese and the rest of them combined do not amount to the sales on the toyota prius. France effectively has no auto industry. > > Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota > > factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead > > industries and jobs moved overseas. > > and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china, > along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology > at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point. the reason we don't do that is the unions will not allow it. very simple, and very clearly true. Automation eliminates jobs. > >>> Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is > >>> not so pervasive as here. > >> eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they > >> get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the > >> whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a > >> problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. > > Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to > > prove your point. > as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go > home. Okay, but we're trying to answer the "why can't they make it?" question, and the answer is very simple. Unions. 100% of all union auto manufacturers in the world are losing market share compared to 100% of the non-union manufacturers which are gaining. Those numbers do not lie. No bleating, No squalking, just the cold facts, unions and long term success are incompatible. > > I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or > > that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker > > mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, > > it isn't. > you've never been to europe!!! As it happens, and not that it's relevent, I've spent over a year in europe, married a woman from there, worked with 3 companies, and been in 7 countries. |
Re: Volkswagon unveils car that gets 282 miles to the gallon.
bill wrote:
> On May 25, 1:24 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> bill wrote: >> >> on second thoughts, you /do/ deserve a response. >> >>>>>>> everything you are suggesting has been looked at and failed. >>>>>> when? how hard did they try? and what choice do the unions have if the >>>>>> auto manufacturers collapse? >>>>> Every time there's a new automation technology out, and right up >>>>> to the strike line. Do you seriously think they are having cars hand >>>>> assembled because they like it? don't think much of the plant >>>>> engineers do you? >>>> i don't think you can collect and present a coherent argument. >>> That's because you don't bother to read, pay atention, or remove >>> your head from your ass. Your daddy is probably a union cocksucker >>> and it has colored your views such that you can't open your eyes. >> wrong. and i've never been a union member of any sort. no unions in my >> company either. >> >>> the >>> simple fact is that every new automation improvement is met by the >>> unions at the gate with a resounding NO!! >> so what did /management/ do to bring it in here? it's not like the >> legal tools don't exist. it happened in europe despite massive union >> protection laws and national strikes. and guess what, now europe is >> highly automated and highly productive. germany at any rate. it has >> unemployment problems, but so will we if we keep exporting jobs to china. >> >>> US auto makers lead the >>> field in new concepts applied to vehicles, or at least did until they >>> were summarily strangled by union mandated bullshit. >> cite. >> >>> for example, >>> unibody, crumple zones, onboard computers, the assembly line, gps >>> navigation ALL originated in us cars, >> wrong. unibody was citroen, france. > > in partnership with chrysler > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque > >> the germans were into crash deformation zones in the 40's. > > I stand corrected. > >> if by "computers", you mean fuel injection, injection was used in germany in the 30's. electronic fuel injection was usa, > > Well, still happened :) > > but that was imposed on manufacturers, kicking and screaming, by > californias emissions laws. > > no, I meant the ECU. again, you'll just say it was installed to > deal with epa laws, but it still happened here. As did the catalytic > converter. but you were trying to argue it from the "automotive innovation" position, as if it was leadership by the auto industry. it wasn't. it was california's environmental laws that /forced/ a highly reluctant industry into compliance. and they fought it tooth and nail - all the way to federal court. > >> the assembly line, was ford, us. > > > > gps is /utterly/ irrelevant when your crankshafts are cast, your >> body pressings are mis-shapen and your transmissions barely last 100k. > > here's an interesting bit. anyway, until pretty recently, the us auto > industry was at least fully competitive with anyone's best. What > changed? I'll tell you, the technology changed and the companies were > prevented from implementing it due to UCS interference (union > suckers) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...latives#Firsts i can tell you for sure, the bit on injection chronology is wrong. the me109 german fighter plane from ww2 used fuel injection, and that system was tested extensively on german racing cars in the 1930's as the nazi's armed ready for war, but in "stealth mode" due to the treaty of versailles. it may not have been used on production vehicles over there, but to claim that it dates from the 50's is incorrect. > >>> and were later implemented by >>> other countries, the issue is that we can not close our obsolete >>> plants, modernize the ones we have, or outsource to modern plants >>> without facing a strike by uneducated union cocksuckers like you. >> sure we can. if management don't have the balls to get on with it, >> that's not a union problem. shut the industry down. fire the lot of >> them. and start again. happens in other union industries. > > If management doesn't have the balls to face down a strike, lose > billions of dollars and precious market share, and then have the > federal government step in and decide what to do based on what will > win votes you mean? look, this isn't complicated, the unions are > strangling the industry, they aren't the only problem, but they are > the biggest. unions are a problem, but other fundamental problems are much bigger. they're /not/ responsible for poor product design, they're /not/ responsible for poor product specification, they /not/ responsible for lack of innovation, they're /not/ responsible for failure to bring new product to market, and they're most /definitely/ not responsible for suv's! > >>>>> incorrect. the employers wanted to keep their clerical staff >>>>> nonunion, the union wanted to expand to include the clerical staff. >>>>> It seems that it was a lockout, they had to get the technology >>>>> implemented and the union refused to do so, so that was that. >>>>> http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=5168 >>>> i don't think you even read your own citation! >>> And I know you didn't read it. That article is spun as far >>> toward the dockworkers as it is possible to spin anything and still >>> comes off making them look like childish twats. >> so why did you cite it? cite something that supports your argument, not >> contradicts it!!! > > It does support what I said. they had a dispute about freaking > bar codes. no, they were on board with bar codes from day one - they simply wanted data inputters to have the choice of being union. what's so freakin' tough about that? > I was wrong about strike vs lockout, but it really amounts > to the same thing, the unions refused to use the new tech, and the > company said you have to. the clerical staff is and was nonunion, so > the union claims that they were trying to exclude the clerical staff > from the union were bullshit. It's a little hard to find decent > objective analysis of political bullshit that happened 10 years ago, > so I'm going to have to ask you to look past the spin they put on that > one. translation: it's hard to find anything that supports the "unions caused it" position! basically because it doesn't exist. > >>>>>>> As another, trains to this day have a conductor, the conductor >>>>>>> was the guy in the caboose who operated the brake. when is the last >>>>>>> time you saw a caboose? however, when the automated brakes came into >>>>>>> play, the union threw a hissy and made them keep the conductor. >>>>>>> the unions in europe are nothing next to our own. >>>>>> you've never been there evidently. i have, and i have family there. >>>>>> unions there are /way/ more entrenched and expensive. yet they make >>>>>> more for less. it ain't a union problem bud. >>>>> Yep, been there, and you are the most abjectly full of >>>>> individual ever in history. Our unions force companies to pay >>>>> uneducated workers more than the starting salary for a ph.d, not the >>>>> case in europe. >>>> well, that shows how little you know. trained workers here get paid. >>>> trained workers there get paid. untrained workers here don't get paid, >>>> untrained workers there don't get paid. qualified tech professionals >>>> there get paid /significantly/ less than their equivalents here. >>>> http://www.newscientistjobs.com/search.action >>> nope, shows that you are an ignorant arrogant piece of . The >>> redirect to a job-site for scientists europe was quite a clever line >>> of total bullshit with no potential whatsoever to prove anything. >> eh? european engineering grads being paid $40k is bullshit? home many >> engineering grads here are going to work for that? > > All of them. starting salary for ALL branches of engineering is > 40k plus or minus 5 depending on location and specialty. cite. > >>> In >>> the US, untrained uneducated unmotivated union cocksuckers get paid >>> salaries approaching those earned by doctors, ($74,000 for dockworkers >>> on average vs $100,000 for doctors starting salary for civil engineers >>> $33,000) >> in europe, grads consistently get paid less than union workers. > > As they do here. but you were arguing that it was a union problem /here/! it's not. it's a union "problem" everywhere. the point is, detroit is citing it as the "cause". it's not. it's management paralysis and lack of gonads in dealing with their own lack of input. > >>> salary for auto workers in the US, $25/hr, or 50,000/year, >>> starting salary for an engineer at ford, $25,000. or for example, >>> union garbagemen make an average of 50-75000/yr, vs an mba starting >>> salary at $42,000. this list doesn't end. >> if you're trying to contradict what i said, you're making no sense. > > Okay, thing 1 was that I was talking about union pay scales > compared to professional pay scales, and pointing out that they are > consistently higher. but it's the same or worse in europe. detroit citing "union" as the cause of their problem is simply failure to acknowledge the elephant in the room. > >>> Also note that the german automotive industry is in collapse now >>> with similar problems to ours in terms of innovation, quality and >>> pricing. >> really? is that why bmw, mercedes and vw are all over american roads? > > Lag. unions work great as long as nothing changes. you'll note > that for the past 20 years, bmw and mercedes have been declining HARD > in quality, reliability and overall desireability. besides, luxury > cars are a bit of a special case. nothing much luxury about a vw. besides, mercedes are low end crap in europe - it's only dumb americans being willing to pay a premium that makes them "prestige" over here. ever ridden a taxi in germany? > >>> and as for french cars.... what french cars? >> er, peugeot, citroen, nissan... > > Nissan is japanese controlled by renault, france. > and the rest of them combined do not amount to > the sales on the toyota prius. France effectively has no auto > industry. yes they do. they /export/ nothing to the us, but nissan sell well. see above. and they sell massively throughout europe, the middle east and south america. > >>> Modern quality cars come from japan or the NON-UNION toyota >>> factory in the us. Unions produce nothing these days but dead >>> industries and jobs moved overseas. >> and that's another point, why ship AMERICAN jobs overseas to china, >> along with our technology, when we can AUTOMATE and keep our technology >> at home. bleating about unions is totally missing the point. > > the reason we don't do that is the unions will not allow it. > very simple, and very clearly true. Automation eliminates jobs. no, exporting jobs to china eliminates jobs. automation retains jobs. fewer jobs for sure, but they are retained, along with the technology. ask motorola about the "returns" they get from exporting their jobs and technology to china - a market flooded with cheap knock-off chinese competition where they're having serious problems. motorola's technology and intellectual property walked out the door every evening when their chinese employees went home. and now it's being used against their dumb asses. if they'd stayed home and automated, they could compete on price and keep their technology safe. > >>>>> Also, in europe, the union cocksucker mentality is >>>>> not so pervasive as here. >>>> eh? ever heard of a country called france? how about germany? they >>>> get /national/ strike paralysis. i repeat - /national/ strikes. the >>>> whole freakin' country shuts down. and you say /our/ unions are a >>>> problem? you don't know what the hell you're talking about. >>> Other countries with nonviable auto industries fail horribly to >>> prove your point. >> as they should here. if they can't make it, they should pack up and go >> home. > > Okay, but we're trying to answer the "why can't they make it?" > question, and the answer is very simple. Unions. 100% of all union > auto manufacturers in the world are losing market share compared to > 100% of the non-union manufacturers which are gaining. Those numbers > do not lie. No bleating, No squalking, just the cold facts, unions > and long term success are incompatible. elephant in the room - their product sucks! if they can't make anything worth buying, they're going to go out of business. cost structures are immaterial in comparison. > >>> I wasn't saying that europe didn't have unions or >>> that they weren't pervasive, I was saying that the union cocksucker >>> mentality like yours wasn't so pervasive, and for the bulk of europe, >>> it isn't. >> you've never been to europe!!! > > As it happens, and not that it's relevent, I've spent over a year > in europe, married a woman from there, worked with 3 companies, and > been in 7 countries. > so how did you miss the fact that unions have europe strangled with a 35 hour week, toxic high wages and benefits, and labor laws that prevent terminations? none of those things exist here. companies here say they can't make a profit because of unions, but the europeans manage to be able to in spite of them? something's terribly wrong with that excuse, particularly when you understand that it's the /european/ divisions of gm and frod that are generating the profits that keep those two companies afloat. kinda. reality is, detroit management that has lost touch with their customer base over here. and has continued to ignore the 30 year rising tide of japanese manufacturers using AMERICAN management skills and AMERICAN quality control to thrash us at the games WE invented. unions may be a huge pita, but bleating about them is like bleating about the fleas on a dog when it has your balls in its mouth - they're simply not the #1 problem. |
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