windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
08-20-2003, 06:34 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
I haven't owned a Japanese vehicle since my 1997 Lexus but it and
my two previous Lexus' did not have a manual recirc, they ALL had
automatic recirc as part of the system, as do most American
cars. Only the low end American cars like the Escort have the
less expensive manual recirc. Even on recirc some air is drawn
from outside and exhausted, in any event
mike hunt
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> In article <rMK0b.128907$_R5.49685693@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
> >
> > If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
>
> Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
> suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
> have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
>
> > > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > > have one.
> >
> > Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> > I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> > windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> > someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> > Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
>
> That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
> very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
> recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
> want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
>
> > Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> > including US makes, have also had them.
>
> I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
> the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
> cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
> the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
> Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
> law.
>
> The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
> I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
> where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
> Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
> Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
>
> > I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> > describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
> >
> > "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> > mode."
>
> yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
> something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
> recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
> But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
> time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
> recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
> I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
> offer.
>
> > Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> > recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> > fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> > humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> > which states:
> >
> > "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> > conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> > dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
>
> Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
> button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
> dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
> If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
> won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
>
> Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
> INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
> don't have.
>
> > > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> >
> > Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> > a major source of fresh air.
>
> Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
> which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
> start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
> is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
> the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
>
> Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
> outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
> work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
> You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
> air, which means less noise.
>
> > I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> > recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
>
> Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
>
> And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
> it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
>
> > My point is that
> > there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> > all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> > the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
>
> Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
> Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
my two previous Lexus' did not have a manual recirc, they ALL had
automatic recirc as part of the system, as do most American
cars. Only the low end American cars like the Escort have the
less expensive manual recirc. Even on recirc some air is drawn
from outside and exhausted, in any event
mike hunt
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> In article <rMK0b.128907$_R5.49685693@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
> >
> > If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
>
> Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
> suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
> have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
>
> > > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > > have one.
> >
> > Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> > I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> > windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> > someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> > Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
>
> That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
> very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
> recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
> want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
>
> > Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> > including US makes, have also had them.
>
> I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
> the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
> cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
> the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
> Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
> law.
>
> The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
> I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
> where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
> Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
> Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
>
> > I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> > describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
> >
> > "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> > mode."
>
> yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
> something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
> recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
> But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
> time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
> recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
> I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
> offer.
>
> > Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> > recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> > fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> > humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> > which states:
> >
> > "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> > conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> > dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
>
> Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
> button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
> dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
> If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
> won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
>
> Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
> INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
> don't have.
>
> > > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> >
> > Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> > a major source of fresh air.
>
> Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
> which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
> start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
> is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
> the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
>
> Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
> outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
> work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
> You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
> air, which means less noise.
>
> > I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> > recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
>
> Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
>
> And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
> it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
>
> > My point is that
> > there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> > all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> > the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
>
> Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
> Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
08-20-2003, 08:00 PM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:X4I0b.11640$zC4.6398@fe13.atl2.webusenet.com. ..
> In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
> > house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
> > house.
>
> There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
>
> Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> have one.
they have a "MAX A/C" button- same thing.
>
>
>
> > FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
> > window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
> > interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
>
> Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
> recommends the above? It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
>
>
>
> > With the
> > windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
> > coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
>
> Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
> air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
> more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
> cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
> the 140 degree interior air.
>
08-20-2003, 08:00 PM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:X4I0b.11640$zC4.6398@fe13.atl2.webusenet.com. ..
> In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
> > house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
> > house.
>
> There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
>
> Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> have one.
they have a "MAX A/C" button- same thing.
>
>
>
> > FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
> > window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
> > interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
>
> Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
> recommends the above? It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
>
>
>
> > With the
> > windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
> > coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
>
> Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
> air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
> more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
> cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
> the 140 degree interior air.
>
08-20-2003, 09:17 PM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <WYT0b.210690$o%2.96646@sccrnsc02>,
"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> they have a "MAX A/C" button- same thing.
no, it's not. MAC A/C turns on the air conditioner--period. I may not
want that. I want control of my systems, including a separate
recirculate button that's not tied to any other system. It just
operates the blend door and closes it. Period. No other system is
touched, and the A/C doesn't come on just because I wanted recirculate
for a moment or two while I get away from the stinky bus.
"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> they have a "MAX A/C" button- same thing.
no, it's not. MAC A/C turns on the air conditioner--period. I may not
want that. I want control of my systems, including a separate
recirculate button that's not tied to any other system. It just
operates the blend door and closes it. Period. No other system is
touched, and the A/C doesn't come on just because I wanted recirculate
for a moment or two while I get away from the stinky bus.
08-20-2003, 09:17 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <WYT0b.210690$o%2.96646@sccrnsc02>,
"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> they have a "MAX A/C" button- same thing.
no, it's not. MAC A/C turns on the air conditioner--period. I may not
want that. I want control of my systems, including a separate
recirculate button that's not tied to any other system. It just
operates the blend door and closes it. Period. No other system is
touched, and the A/C doesn't come on just because I wanted recirculate
for a moment or two while I get away from the stinky bus.
"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> they have a "MAX A/C" button- same thing.
no, it's not. MAC A/C turns on the air conditioner--period. I may not
want that. I want control of my systems, including a separate
recirculate button that's not tied to any other system. It just
operates the blend door and closes it. Period. No other system is
touched, and the A/C doesn't come on just because I wanted recirculate
for a moment or two while I get away from the stinky bus.
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