gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:58:09 GMT, "Eric G."
<NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote:

>gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com> wrote in
>news:ds8pd25orts9h32ivp6t4janjjmhua6cch@4ax.com :
>
>> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:07:16 GMT, "Eric G."
>> <NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote:
>>
>>>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>>>news:5oRCg.4515$ID1.1966@bignews2.bellsouth.net :
>>>
>>>> To do it right, you need to start from scratch, which means you need
>>>> a good set of gauges and know how to use them. You also need a
>>>> vacuum pump to hook up to the system, which will cost you about $400
>>>> or so. You really do need to know the procedure so get a shop manual
>>>> for the car. If you do it wrong, and open up the high pressure side
>>>> to the can of freon, you're dead! It's really not that hard but you
>>>> just need to know the steps and precautions.
>>>
>>>Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
>>>hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
>>>charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system
>>>properly without a problem.
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>> You need a good sensitive refrigerant scale. Virtually all automotive
>> AC systems are charged by weight, not pressure/temperature.
>>
>> gerry
>
>From the factory, yes. In the field, it can actually be better to use
>pressure/temperature. What do you propose? Evacuate the entire system and
>add X ounces of refrigerant?

Weigh in is the ONLY proper way!!! That is also why legal recharging
places have recovery/recycle equipment. In the US, the EPA actually
requires 609 certification to work on MVAC equipment such as an
automobile. "Recharge kits" exist because R-141a does not need a
certification to purchase and the EPA overlooks the private usage.

Weigh-in is the only way to get a full charge without overcharging!

Automotive systems use an accumulator or receiver and TXV metering.
Since this setup keeps a reserve of liquid, the amount of reserve can
not be determined via pressure. Too little and you will get less than
desired capacity. Too much and you get liquid in the compressor and
destroy it. Pressure remains the same without regard to liquid level in
the receiver or accumulator.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:58:09 GMT, "Eric G."
<NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote:

>gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com> wrote in
>news:ds8pd25orts9h32ivp6t4janjjmhua6cch@4ax.com :
>
>> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:07:16 GMT, "Eric G."
>> <NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote:
>>
>>>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>>>news:5oRCg.4515$ID1.1966@bignews2.bellsouth.net :
>>>
>>>> To do it right, you need to start from scratch, which means you need
>>>> a good set of gauges and know how to use them. You also need a
>>>> vacuum pump to hook up to the system, which will cost you about $400
>>>> or so. You really do need to know the procedure so get a shop manual
>>>> for the car. If you do it wrong, and open up the high pressure side
>>>> to the can of freon, you're dead! It's really not that hard but you
>>>> just need to know the steps and precautions.
>>>
>>>Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
>>>hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
>>>charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system
>>>properly without a problem.
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>> You need a good sensitive refrigerant scale. Virtually all automotive
>> AC systems are charged by weight, not pressure/temperature.
>>
>> gerry
>
>From the factory, yes. In the field, it can actually be better to use
>pressure/temperature. What do you propose? Evacuate the entire system and
>add X ounces of refrigerant?

Weigh in is the ONLY proper way!!! That is also why legal recharging
places have recovery/recycle equipment. In the US, the EPA actually
requires 609 certification to work on MVAC equipment such as an
automobile. "Recharge kits" exist because R-141a does not need a
certification to purchase and the EPA overlooks the private usage.

Weigh-in is the only way to get a full charge without overcharging!

Automotive systems use an accumulator or receiver and TXV metering.
Since this setup keeps a reserve of liquid, the amount of reserve can
not be determined via pressure. Too little and you will get less than
desired capacity. Too much and you get liquid in the compressor and
destroy it. Pressure remains the same without regard to liquid level in
the receiver or accumulator.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:44:06 -0500, JS <jsuter@intrastardot.net> wrote:

>Eric G. wrote:
>> "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>> news:5oRCg.4515$ID1.1966@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>> To do it right, you need to start from scratch, which means you need a
>>> good set of gauges and know how to use them. You also need a vacuum
>>> pump to hook up to the system, which will cost you about $400 or so.
>>> You really do need to know the procedure so get a shop manual for the
>>> car. If you do it wrong, and open up the high pressure side to the
>>> can of freon, you're dead! It's really not that hard but you just
>>> need to know the steps and precautions.
>>
>> Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges, hooked
>> up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much charge the
>> system is supposed to have, you can fill the system properly without a
>> problem.
>
>You might not need a vacuum pump for your AC service, but I sure do.
>
>Of course, I like my AC cold and my pumps happy and long lasting. Iced
>up orifice tubes suck.
>
>JS


Automotive AC's don't use orifice tubes, they use TXV's for metering.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:44:06 -0500, JS <jsuter@intrastardot.net> wrote:

>Eric G. wrote:
>> "Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>> news:5oRCg.4515$ID1.1966@bignews2.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>> To do it right, you need to start from scratch, which means you need a
>>> good set of gauges and know how to use them. You also need a vacuum
>>> pump to hook up to the system, which will cost you about $400 or so.
>>> You really do need to know the procedure so get a shop manual for the
>>> car. If you do it wrong, and open up the high pressure side to the
>>> can of freon, you're dead! It's really not that hard but you just
>>> need to know the steps and precautions.
>>
>> Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges, hooked
>> up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much charge the
>> system is supposed to have, you can fill the system properly without a
>> problem.
>
>You might not need a vacuum pump for your AC service, but I sure do.
>
>Of course, I like my AC cold and my pumps happy and long lasting. Iced
>up orifice tubes suck.
>
>JS


Automotive AC's don't use orifice tubes, they use TXV's for metering.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

Dave in Lake Villa

Aftermarket freon refill kits should BE BANNED. They are dangerous in
the hands of the inexperienced. Further, the average consumer doesnt
have the knowledge on how to properly recharge an auto a/c , doesnt have
the tools/guages nor knows how to read them and understand the
relationship between pressure and temperature of R134 , will most
likely end up putting air as well as freon into the system and
eventually causing problems , etc.... Spend the money and have a
professional do it --- dont go to your local Oil Change place
either...go to a proper Service Station or the Dealership you bought the
car from . If you are constantly adding freon to your system, have it
electronically leak checked during your recharge visit.

Dave in Lake Villa

Aftermarket freon refill kits should BE BANNED. They are dangerous in
the hands of the inexperienced. Further, the average consumer doesnt
have the knowledge on how to properly recharge an auto a/c , doesnt have
the tools/guages nor knows how to read them and understand the
relationship between pressure and temperature of R134 , will most
likely end up putting air as well as freon into the system and
eventually causing problems , etc.... Spend the money and have a
professional do it --- dont go to your local Oil Change place
either...go to a proper Service Station or the Dealership you bought the
car from . If you are constantly adding freon to your system, have it
electronically leak checked during your recharge visit.

Dave in Lake Villa

'Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system properly
without a problem.
Eric '

REPLY: If the system is totally empty, you WILL need a vaccuum pump to
rid the system of air and moisture and do it correctly. Further, you
dont 'fill' an auto a/c system (to the top) ; it has to be accurately
metered in and depends on a variety of factors . You will NOT know how
much freon to put in unless you weigh in the EXACT amount which requires
a Charging Cylinder that is marked off in lbs and ounce increments ..
which requires you to know how to use it properly ; if y ou just add
freon from a store bought kit , you are only guessing . If youre a
consumer, stay away from touching your a/c system except to power wash
your Condensor Coil routinely.

Dave in Lake Villa

'Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system properly
without a problem.
Eric '

REPLY: If the system is totally empty, you WILL need a vaccuum pump to
rid the system of air and moisture and do it correctly. Further, you
dont 'fill' an auto a/c system (to the top) ; it has to be accurately
metered in and depends on a variety of factors . You will NOT know how
much freon to put in unless you weigh in the EXACT amount which requires
a Charging Cylinder that is marked off in lbs and ounce increments ..
which requires you to know how to use it properly ; if y ou just add
freon from a store bought kit , you are only guessing . If youre a
consumer, stay away from touching your a/c system except to power wash
your Condensor Coil routinely.

Dave in Lake Villa

In older a/c systems, the manufacturer used to include a sight glass for
recharging ; you hardly ever see this on systems any more. One would
simply add freon thru the low side until the high side sight glass was
clear of bubbles. Without this sight glass on the system, you must
accurately weigh in the freon charge using an accurate clear Charging
Cylinder with graduation markings on the side ; something that is not
available to the public. To not use this method, is only guessing at
the charge you have put in.

Dave in Lake Villa

In older a/c systems, the manufacturer used to include a sight glass for
recharging ; you hardly ever see this on systems any more. One would
simply add freon thru the low side until the high side sight glass was
clear of bubbles. Without this sight glass on the system, you must
accurately weigh in the freon charge using an accurate clear Charging
Cylinder with graduation markings on the side ; something that is not
available to the public. To not use this method, is only guessing at
the charge you have put in.

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:43:09 -0500, DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in
Lake Villa) wrote:

>Aftermarket freon refill kits should BE BANNED. They are dangerous in
>the hands of the inexperienced. Further, the average consumer doesnt
>have the knowledge on how to properly recharge an auto a/c , doesnt have
>the tools/guages nor knows how to read them and understand the
>relationship between pressure and temperature of R134 , will most
>likely end up putting air as well as freon into the system and
>eventually causing problems , etc.... Spend the money and have a
>professional do it --- dont go to your local Oil Change place
>either...go to a proper Service Station or the Dealership you bought the
>car from . If you are constantly adding freon to your system, have it
>electronically leak checked during your recharge visit.


Actually, recharging an automotive AC does require at least EPA 609
certification. USING the kits without such is illegal in the US.

Purchasing R-134a does not require certification since it has many uses
other than as a refrigerant and is not an EPA controlled material.

As stated elsewhere in this thread, 609 is rarely enforced for private
usage.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:43:09 -0500, DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in
Lake Villa) wrote:

>Aftermarket freon refill kits should BE BANNED. They are dangerous in
>the hands of the inexperienced. Further, the average consumer doesnt
>have the knowledge on how to properly recharge an auto a/c , doesnt have
>the tools/guages nor knows how to read them and understand the
>relationship between pressure and temperature of R134 , will most
>likely end up putting air as well as freon into the system and
>eventually causing problems , etc.... Spend the money and have a
>professional do it --- dont go to your local Oil Change place
>either...go to a proper Service Station or the Dealership you bought the
>car from . If you are constantly adding freon to your system, have it
>electronically leak checked during your recharge visit.


Actually, recharging an automotive AC does require at least EPA 609
certification. USING the kits without such is illegal in the US.

Purchasing R-134a does not require certification since it has many uses
other than as a refrigerant and is not an EPA controlled material.

As stated elsewhere in this thread, 609 is rarely enforced for private
usage.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:18:18 -0400, gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com>
wrote:


>
>Weigh in is the ONLY proper way!!! That is also why legal recharging
>places have recovery/recycle equipment. In the US, the EPA actually
>requires 609 certification to work on MVAC equipment such as an
>automobile. "Recharge kits" exist because R-141a does not need a
>certification to purchase and the EPA overlooks the private usage.

Typo above, "R-141a" should read "R-134a"


gerry


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:18:18 -0400, gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com>
wrote:


>
>Weigh in is the ONLY proper way!!! That is also why legal recharging
>places have recovery/recycle equipment. In the US, the EPA actually
>requires 609 certification to work on MVAC equipment such as an
>automobile. "Recharge kits" exist because R-141a does not need a
>certification to purchase and the EPA overlooks the private usage.

Typo above, "R-141a" should read "R-134a"


gerry


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:49:54 -0500, DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in
Lake Villa) wrote:

>'Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
>hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
>charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system properly
>without a problem.
>Eric '
>
>REPLY: If the system is totally empty, you WILL need a vaccuum pump to
>rid the system of air and moisture and do it correctly.

Actually, if the system has stood without pressure and a leak, chances
are the hygroscopic PAG or POE oil has been permanently contaminated.
Drain, flush and changing the dryer is the only way to get the acid that
forms when moisture hits the R-134 compatible oils out.

Old R-12 systems used mineral oil that was not affected by moisture.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots