gerry

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:49:54 -0500, DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in
Lake Villa) wrote:

>'Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
>hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
>charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system properly
>without a problem.
>Eric '
>
>REPLY: If the system is totally empty, you WILL need a vaccuum pump to
>rid the system of air and moisture and do it correctly.

Actually, if the system has stood without pressure and a leak, chances
are the hygroscopic PAG or POE oil has been permanently contaminated.
Drain, flush and changing the dryer is the only way to get the acid that
forms when moisture hits the R-134 compatible oils out.

Old R-12 systems used mineral oil that was not affected by moisture.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

Dave in Lake Villa

'Actually, recharging an automotive AC does require at least EPA 609
certification. USING the kits without such is illegal in the US.'

REPLY: I was going to mention this fact, but, R134 is too readily
available to the consumer and abiding by Government Laws is going to be
the least of their concern.

Dave in Lake Villa

'Actually, recharging an automotive AC does require at least EPA 609
certification. USING the kits without such is illegal in the US.'

REPLY: I was going to mention this fact, but, R134 is too readily
available to the consumer and abiding by Government Laws is going to be
the least of their concern.

Dave in Lake Villa

'Actually, if the system has stood without pressure and a leak, chances
are the hygroscopic PAG or POE oil has been permanently contaminated.
Drain, flush and changing the dryer is the only way to get the acid that
forms when moisture hits the R-134 compatible oils out.'

REPLY: Correct. And you still need the Vaccuum Pump for pulling a deep
vaccuum once the system is cleaned up .

Dave in Lake Villa

'Actually, if the system has stood without pressure and a leak, chances
are the hygroscopic PAG or POE oil has been permanently contaminated.
Drain, flush and changing the dryer is the only way to get the acid that
forms when moisture hits the R-134 compatible oils out.'

REPLY: Correct. And you still need the Vaccuum Pump for pulling a deep
vaccuum once the system is cleaned up .

tjnamtiw

Matt is correct. The proper way is to evacuate the system WITH A VACUUM
PUMP and recharge it with the correct weight of freon. I believe that you
said that the system wouldn't work at all which indicates that the freon
level was so low that the pressure switch was not making. At that point,
you have to assume that the system is empty and probably has air (with
moisture) in it. At that point, you have to use a vacuum. I know I say
that because I'm lucky enough to have one from where I used to work, but I
also know that it's a big outlay of money and you would want a cheaper cure.
I guess you could just recharge it and hope for the best but it won't cool
as well because you won't have the same amount of freon in it, or, if you
put the right amount of freon in it, then you've over charged it with the
air already in there and you could blow hoses, seals, etc.


"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:9a6Dg.457$Db4.41075@news1.epix.net...
> Eric G. wrote:
>> gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com> wrote in
>> news:ds8pd25orts9h32ivp6t4janjjmhua6cch@4ax.com:
>>>[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:07:16 GMT, "Eric G."
>>><NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>>>>news:5oRCg.4515$ID1.1966@bignews2.bellsouth.ne t:
>>>>
>>>>>To do it right, you need to start from scratch, which means you need
>>>>>a good set of gauges and know how to use them. You also need a
>>>>>vacuum pump to hook up to the system, which will cost you about $400
>>>>>or so. You really do need to know the procedure so get a shop manual
>>>>>for the car. If you do it wrong, and open up the high pressure side
>>>>>to the can of freon, you're dead! It's really not that hard but you
>>>>>just need to know the steps and precautions.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
>>>>hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
>>>>charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system
>>>>properly without a problem.
>>>>
>>>>Eric
>>>
>>>You need a good sensitive refrigerant scale. Virtually all automotive
>>>AC systems are charged by weight, not pressure/temperature.
>>>
>>>gerry
>>
>>
>> From the factory, yes. In the field, it can actually be better to use
>> pressure/temperature. What do you propose? Evacuate the entire system
>> and add X ounces of refrigerant?
>
> I believe that is the correct way to do it. That obviously isn't what
> happens with the DIY kits.
>
> Matt

tjnamtiw

Matt is correct. The proper way is to evacuate the system WITH A VACUUM
PUMP and recharge it with the correct weight of freon. I believe that you
said that the system wouldn't work at all which indicates that the freon
level was so low that the pressure switch was not making. At that point,
you have to assume that the system is empty and probably has air (with
moisture) in it. At that point, you have to use a vacuum. I know I say
that because I'm lucky enough to have one from where I used to work, but I
also know that it's a big outlay of money and you would want a cheaper cure.
I guess you could just recharge it and hope for the best but it won't cool
as well because you won't have the same amount of freon in it, or, if you
put the right amount of freon in it, then you've over charged it with the
air already in there and you could blow hoses, seals, etc.


"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:9a6Dg.457$Db4.41075@news1.epix.net...
> Eric G. wrote:
>> gerry <gerrrry__net@gogood.com> wrote in
>> news:ds8pd25orts9h32ivp6t4janjjmhua6cch@4ax.com:
>>>[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:07:16 GMT, "Eric G."
>>><NgOrSePeAnM99@Zoptonline.Znet> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom" <tjwitman@bellsouth.net> wrote in
>>>>news:5oRCg.4515$ID1.1966@bignews2.bellsouth.ne t:
>>>>
>>>>>To do it right, you need to start from scratch, which means you need
>>>>>a good set of gauges and know how to use them. You also need a
>>>>>vacuum pump to hook up to the system, which will cost you about $400
>>>>>or so. You really do need to know the procedure so get a shop manual
>>>>>for the car. If you do it wrong, and open up the high pressure side
>>>>>to the can of freon, you're dead! It's really not that hard but you
>>>>>just need to know the steps and precautions.
>>>>
>>>>Sorry, but you don't need a vacuum pump. If you have good gauges,
>>>>hooked up to the right ports, know the ambient air temp., and how much
>>>>charge the system is supposed to have, you can fill the system
>>>>properly without a problem.
>>>>
>>>>Eric
>>>
>>>You need a good sensitive refrigerant scale. Virtually all automotive
>>>AC systems are charged by weight, not pressure/temperature.
>>>
>>>gerry
>>
>>
>> From the factory, yes. In the field, it can actually be better to use
>> pressure/temperature. What do you propose? Evacuate the entire system
>> and add X ounces of refrigerant?
>
> I believe that is the correct way to do it. That obviously isn't what
> happens with the DIY kits.
>
> Matt

Matt Whiting

tjnamtiw wrote:

> Matt is correct. The proper way is to evacuate the system WITH A VACUUM
> PUMP and recharge it with the correct weight of freon. I believe that you
> said that the system wouldn't work at all which indicates that the freon
> level was so low that the pressure switch was not making. At that point,
> you have to assume that the system is empty and probably has air (with
> moisture) in it. At that point, you have to use a vacuum. I know I say
> that because I'm lucky enough to have one from where I used to work, but I
> also know that it's a big outlay of money and you would want a cheaper cure.
> I guess you could just recharge it and hope for the best but it won't cool
> as well because you won't have the same amount of freon in it, or, if you
> put the right amount of freon in it, then you've over charged it with the
> air already in there and you could blow hoses, seals, etc.

And if it is empty, then it has a leak. One needs to find the leak
before recharging the system. Most DIYers aren't capable of doing that
either. I like working on my car as much as the next guy, but some jobs
just require more tools that I care to buy in order to do the job right.
Most AC work falls into that category.


Matt

Matt Whiting

tjnamtiw wrote:

> Matt is correct. The proper way is to evacuate the system WITH A VACUUM
> PUMP and recharge it with the correct weight of freon. I believe that you
> said that the system wouldn't work at all which indicates that the freon
> level was so low that the pressure switch was not making. At that point,
> you have to assume that the system is empty and probably has air (with
> moisture) in it. At that point, you have to use a vacuum. I know I say
> that because I'm lucky enough to have one from where I used to work, but I
> also know that it's a big outlay of money and you would want a cheaper cure.
> I guess you could just recharge it and hope for the best but it won't cool
> as well because you won't have the same amount of freon in it, or, if you
> put the right amount of freon in it, then you've over charged it with the
> air already in there and you could blow hoses, seals, etc.

And if it is empty, then it has a leak. One needs to find the leak
before recharging the system. Most DIYers aren't capable of doing that
either. I like working on my car as much as the next guy, but some jobs
just require more tools that I care to buy in order to do the job right.
Most AC work falls into that category.


Matt

Thee Chicago Wolf

>Aftermarket freon refill kits should BE BANNED. They are dangerous in
>the hands of the inexperienced. Further, the average consumer doesnt
>have the knowledge on how to properly recharge an auto a/c , doesnt have
>the tools/guages nor knows how to read them and understand the
>relationship between pressure and temperature of R134 , will most
>likely end up putting air as well as freon into the system and
>eventually causing problems , etc.... Spend the money and have a
>professional do it --- dont go to your local Oil Change place
>either...go to a proper Service Station or the Dealership you bought the
>car from . If you are constantly adding freon to your system, have it
>electronically leak checked during your recharge visit.

Gotten a lot of good information from here and it seems like the
re-charge kits are more trouble than they're worth. But now that I
have had my 02 Sonata for nearly 5 years and the A/C is finally
starting to go, if a shop does it properly, should I not expect it to
last me another 4+ years?

- Thee Chicago Wolf

Thee Chicago Wolf

>Aftermarket freon refill kits should BE BANNED. They are dangerous in
>the hands of the inexperienced. Further, the average consumer doesnt
>have the knowledge on how to properly recharge an auto a/c , doesnt have
>the tools/guages nor knows how to read them and understand the
>relationship between pressure and temperature of R134 , will most
>likely end up putting air as well as freon into the system and
>eventually causing problems , etc.... Spend the money and have a
>professional do it --- dont go to your local Oil Change place
>either...go to a proper Service Station or the Dealership you bought the
>car from . If you are constantly adding freon to your system, have it
>electronically leak checked during your recharge visit.

Gotten a lot of good information from here and it seems like the
re-charge kits are more trouble than they're worth. But now that I
have had my 02 Sonata for nearly 5 years and the A/C is finally
starting to go, if a shop does it properly, should I not expect it to
last me another 4+ years?

- Thee Chicago Wolf

Dave in Lake Villa

'But now that I have had my 02 Sonata for nearly 5 years and the A/C is
finally starting to go, if a shop does it properly, should I not expect
it to last me another 4+ years?
- Thee Chicago Wolf'

REPLY: It could, and, it may not before needing more attention ; if
you need a recharge every couple of years then that isnt so bad and you
can certainly budget for it. I have a 1998 Chevy Cargo Van with a 305
cid motor and the a/c system has worked flawlessly with 120,000 miles on
it. I pressure wash the condensor several times per summer as it sees
alot of construction sites , which helps keep the internal pressures
resonable and in the normal range for the ambient temp it is. On
automotive a/c systems...the biggest culprit are leaking O-rings
followed by a leaking Compressor Shaft Seal (as evidenced by a straight
line of oily deposits found on the underside of your hood) .

Dave in Lake Villa

'But now that I have had my 02 Sonata for nearly 5 years and the A/C is
finally starting to go, if a shop does it properly, should I not expect
it to last me another 4+ years?
- Thee Chicago Wolf'

REPLY: It could, and, it may not before needing more attention ; if
you need a recharge every couple of years then that isnt so bad and you
can certainly budget for it. I have a 1998 Chevy Cargo Van with a 305
cid motor and the a/c system has worked flawlessly with 120,000 miles on
it. I pressure wash the condensor several times per summer as it sees
alot of construction sites , which helps keep the internal pressures
resonable and in the normal range for the ambient temp it is. On
automotive a/c systems...the biggest culprit are leaking O-rings
followed by a leaking Compressor Shaft Seal (as evidenced by a straight
line of oily deposits found on the underside of your hood) .

Thee Chicago Wolf

>REPLY: It could, and, it may not before needing more attention ; if
>you need a recharge every couple of years then that isnt so bad and you
>can certainly budget for it. I have a 1998 Chevy Cargo Van with a 305
>cid motor and the a/c system has worked flawlessly with 120,000 miles on
>it. I pressure wash the condensor several times per summer as it sees
>alot of construction sites , which helps keep the internal pressures
>resonable and in the normal range for the ambient temp it is. On
>automotive a/c systems...the biggest culprit are leaking O-rings
>followed by a leaking Compressor Shaft Seal (as evidenced by a straight
>line of oily deposits found on the underside of your hood) .

This is all new info to me. Since I've been pretty ok for 4 years, I
figured my system is pretty healthy (no bad -O-rings, cracks, etc.).
Since I've decided I am going to take it to either Pep Boys or Jiffy
Lube, I wanna make sure they aren't gonna try and shaft me by saying
my o-rings are bad or I have leaks. How could I check this stuff to
make sure I am not being fleeced?

- Thee Chicago Wolf

Thee Chicago Wolf

>REPLY: It could, and, it may not before needing more attention ; if
>you need a recharge every couple of years then that isnt so bad and you
>can certainly budget for it. I have a 1998 Chevy Cargo Van with a 305
>cid motor and the a/c system has worked flawlessly with 120,000 miles on
>it. I pressure wash the condensor several times per summer as it sees
>alot of construction sites , which helps keep the internal pressures
>resonable and in the normal range for the ambient temp it is. On
>automotive a/c systems...the biggest culprit are leaking O-rings
>followed by a leaking Compressor Shaft Seal (as evidenced by a straight
>line of oily deposits found on the underside of your hood) .

This is all new info to me. Since I've been pretty ok for 4 years, I
figured my system is pretty healthy (no bad -O-rings, cracks, etc.).
Since I've decided I am going to take it to either Pep Boys or Jiffy
Lube, I wanna make sure they aren't gonna try and shaft me by saying
my o-rings are bad or I have leaks. How could I check this stuff to
make sure I am not being fleeced?

- Thee Chicago Wolf