Doron Levy

http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/

screwtape iii

"Doron Levy" <doron.levy@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:I5KYc.942$JFK1.424@news04.bloor.is.net.cable. rogers.com...
> http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
>

Oh, you mean this?:

"We're sorry, WebTech only works with Internet Explorer, version 5 or
greater. "

Dances With Crows

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 14:30:08 -0400, screwtape iii staggered into the
Black Sun and said:
> "Doron Levy" <doron.levy@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:I5KYc.942$JFK1.424@news04.bloor.is.net.cable. rogers.com...
>> http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/

This ought to be in the FAQ for this newsgroup.

> "We're sorry, WebTech only works with Internet Explorer, version 5 or
> greater. "

Their "web designers" used client-side Visual Baysick Script. Even if
you fake the User-Agent with Firefox/Safari, it won't work because
nothing but I.Exploder supports VB. All the information on the site is
in PDF or HTML, but the interface is I.Exploder-only. Yes, they
ignored the precept that says "a web site should be set up such that it
can be used as a straight directory tree, without any client- or
server-side intelligence." *******.

So: Set up a cron job to visit the site every few hours using Mozilla
or Firefox or Safari, so they see that people using Real Browsers are
interested in the site[0]. Find the contact info for the people in charge
of the website and fire off a polite e-mail[0]. Appeal to their
mercenary instincts by saying, "I don't use Windows and I'd like to use
your Webtech site. If I can't visit Webtech with (Firefox/Safari/lynx)
then I'll go buy a (Nissan/Ford/Maybach)." Might work if enough people
do it.

[0] This assumes that they look at the server logs and don't dump all
email to webmaster@ to /dev/null. These assumptions may be incorrect.

--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Your very best intentions probably involve guns and knives and a large
concept leap. --MegaHAL, trained on random gibberish
Hire me! http://crow202.dyndns.org/~mhgraham/resume/

Brian Nystrom

explanation snipped to save bandwidth>

Thanks for explaining that. I wondered what the reason for
incompatibility was.

> So: Set up a cron job to visit the site every few hours using Mozilla
> or Firefox or Safari, so they see that people using Real Browsers are
> interested in the site[0]. Find the contact info for the people in charge
> of the website and fire off a polite e-mail[0]. Appeal to their
> mercenary instincts by saying, "I don't use Windows and I'd like to use
> your Webtech site. If I can't visit Webtech with (Firefox/Safari/lynx)
> then I'll go buy a (Nissan/Ford/Maybach)." Might work if enough people
> do it.

Or you can just install IE and be done with it. Although I prefer
Netscape, there are quite a few sites out there that will only work with
IE. As much as I dislike Microsoft, accessing the content I need is more
important than any religious devotion to an alternative browser, so I
use Netscape whenever possible and IE only when necessary.

Moshe Jacobson

Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:
> Or you can just install IE and be done with it.

Oh, I must've missed when they released IE for Linux...

Moshe

--
*** SPAM BLOCK: Remove bra before replying! ***
http://runslinux.net :: moshe at runslinux dot net :: AIM: Jehsom

Dances With Crows

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:07:59 GMT, Brian Nystrom staggered into the Black
Sun and said:
> Dances With Crows wrote:
>> or Firefox or Safari, so they see that people using Real Browsers are
>> interested in the site. Find the contact info for the people in
>> charge of the website and fire off a polite e-mail. Appeal to their
>> mercenary instincts by saying, "I don't use Windows and I'd like to
>> use your Webtech site."
> Or you can just install IE and be done with it.

Huh? You are aware, are you not, that it's impossible to uninstall
I.Exploder on 'Doze2K or 'DozeXP, and that I.Exploder (version 5 or
higher) does not exist for any OSes other than Windows or OS X?

> Although I prefer Netscape, there are quite a few sites out there that
> will only work with IE.

Netscape is nothing more than a behind-the-times Mozilla with additional
AOL branding. I've heard of these IE-only sites but I'd never seen one
until I tried to visit Hyundai's Webtech site. (Yes, the National City
online banking site works fine with Mozilla/Firefox.)

> As much as I dislike Microsoft, accessing the content I need is more
> important than any religious devotion to an alternative browser

I.Exploder has many, many security holes that can easily lead to your
Windows machine being stuffed with spyware/malware. It also lacks
tabbed browsing. If I run into a site that doesn't work with Firefox,
I'll send a message to the webmaster explaining that the site is badly
designed, and that I'm visiting their competitors' sites until they make
their site work with open standards and standards-compliant browsers.

--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Hire me! http://crow202.dyndns.org/~mhgraham/resume/
You have me mixed up with more creative ways of being stupid. --MegaHAL

Brian Nystrom

Dances With Crows wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:07:59 GMT, Brian Nystrom staggered into the Black
> Sun and said:
>
>>Dances With Crows wrote:
>>
>>>or Firefox or Safari, so they see that people using Real Browsers are
>>>interested in the site. Find the contact info for the people in
>>>charge of the website and fire off a polite e-mail. Appeal to their
>>>mercenary instincts by saying, "I don't use Windows and I'd like to
>>>use your Webtech site."
>>
>>Or you can just install IE and be done with it.
>
> Huh? You are aware, are you not, that it's impossible to uninstall
> I.Exploder on 'Doze2K or 'DozeXP, and that I.Exploder (version 5 or
> higher) does not exist for any OSes other than Windows or OS X?

No, it's not impossible to uninstall it, but it can be problematic since
some other applications depend on components of IE. Frankly, I find that
more annoying than incompatible web sites.

As for other OS's, you know that when you choose to use one. Yes, it's a
lousy situation, but for now, we're stuck with Windows as the
"standard". I dislike it intensely, too, but I dislike not being able to
access important information even more.

>>Although I prefer Netscape, there are quite a few sites out there that
>>will only work with IE.
>
> Netscape is nothing more than a behind-the-times Mozilla with additional
> AOL branding.

And your point would be...?

> I've heard of these IE-only sites but I'd never seen one
> until I tried to visit Hyundai's Webtech site. (Yes, the National City
> online banking site works fine with Mozilla/Firefox.)

I've run into several of them.

>>As much as I dislike Microsoft, accessing the content I need is more
>>important than any religious devotion to an alternative browser

> I.Exploder has many, many security holes that can easily lead to your
> Windows machine being stuffed with spyware/malware.

I've had no trouble with anything of the kind since installing a
firewall. I scan regularly for spyware, anyway.

> It also lacks tabbed browsing.

Yeah, that sucks. I'm not defending IE as a product, as I don't like it
either. It's just the most expedient way of dealing with sites that
won't work with other browsers.

> If I run into a site that doesn't work with Firefox,
> I'll send a message to the webmaster explaining that the site is badly
> designed, and that I'm visiting their competitors' sites until they make
> their site work with open standards and standards-compliant browsers.

That's great, but how effective has it been? While I absolutely agree
with you in principle, but from a practical standpoint, if I need
specific content - such as the data on WebTech - I'm not going to wait
around to see if the Webmaster is going to change their site to suit my
browser.

Brian Nystrom

Moshe Jacobson wrote:

> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:
>
>>Or you can just install IE and be done with it.
>
> Oh, I must've missed when they released IE for Linux...

And exactly how many people on this newsgroups use Linux? I'll wager
that there are even more people using OS-X than Linux. When you're a
minority in the marketplace, you have to expect such issues. Besides, if
Microsoft wrote IE for Linux, how many Linux users would use it? You'd
probably be able to count them on one hand.

Robert G. Ragosta

Brian Nystrom so eloquently wrote:

> Moshe Jacobson wrote:
>
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Or you can just install IE and be done with it.
>>
>> Oh, I must've missed when they released IE for Linux...
>
> And exactly how many people on this newsgroups use Linux? I'll wager
> that there are even more people using OS-X than Linux. When you're a
> minority in the marketplace, you have to expect such issues. Besides, if
> Microsoft wrote IE for Linux, how many Linux users would use it? You'd
> probably be able to count them on one hand.

Well I'd think you might lose that bet soon if not already. As regards your
comment on "minority in the marketplace"- that assertion definitely depends
on: a) which marketplace you're referring to (US, Asia, EU, etc.), and b)
what system-type (desktop, server) you're considering. Statistically, Linux
is NOT a minority in all categories

The simple issue is that the Hyundai WedTech site was NOT constructed
utilizing INDUSTRY standards but rather PROPRIETARY vendor-specific
"standards". A most unfortunate circumstance, since there is absolutely NO
technical nor service-dependent reason to adopt such posture. Simply, the
web site "designers" took an expedient and frankly unjustified design
approach. Unjustified in that:

1) Korea (Hyundai's REAL home site) has multiple initiatives regarding Open
Standards (and Linux in particular):

http://www.asiaosc.org/article_229.html
http://www.newsforge.com/software/03.../2056234.shtml
http://www.silicon.com/software/os/0...0006225,00.htm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/01...ivil_servants/
http://www.asiaosc.org/article_229.html

2) Hyundai itself is adopting not only open Standards but Open Source
(Linux) as well:

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/biz/...8050911910.htm

3) Open Standards do (and would have) provide equal if not more service
flexibility, capability, and ease-of-use (non-browser/OS dependent)

Bottom-line, the WebTech site was NOT optimally designed and can easily be
adjusted to provide end-user capabilities which more effectively align with
Hyundai's (Korea, EU, Latin America, Australia, US, etc) scope and goal of
maximizing it's customer's objectives..

Regards,
Robert G. Ragosta
--
Linux User #273716 / Linux Machine #227435
KNode 0.7.2 / Mdk 9.2.1 / XFce 4.05 / KDE 3.1.4
"Which is better- Artificial intelligence or REAL stupidity...?"