One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
09-21-2004, 01:45 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
I need your advice! My sister bought a 2004 Santa Fe last week and
after driving it for one week, the engine seized. They *think* they
know the cause, but they are not sure. The dealership tells her all
they can do is replace the engine, then they want to keep it on the
lot for a few weeks to monitor it to make sure there are no more
problems.
My sister is livid. She bought a new car and traded in an older one
that was no longer reliable. She thought a brand new car ensured
reliability (I guess not the case!), now she will be stuck with a
lemon.
She is attempting to get the dealership to replace the vehicle (or do
a trade at her loss, since she does not want the lemon). She called
Hyundai Canada to see what their policy is, and they said they do not
'replace' vehicles, only fix them. I guess they do not have any kind
of policy that if you own the vehicle for a certain time frame and an
obvious manufacturer/assembly problem causes a problem, you get a
replacement car.
What kind of rights does my sister have in this case? If they refuse
a trade/replacement vehicle, can she take them or Hyundai Canada to
court and sue to get a new car?
Thanks!
Paula
after driving it for one week, the engine seized. They *think* they
know the cause, but they are not sure. The dealership tells her all
they can do is replace the engine, then they want to keep it on the
lot for a few weeks to monitor it to make sure there are no more
problems.
My sister is livid. She bought a new car and traded in an older one
that was no longer reliable. She thought a brand new car ensured
reliability (I guess not the case!), now she will be stuck with a
lemon.
She is attempting to get the dealership to replace the vehicle (or do
a trade at her loss, since she does not want the lemon). She called
Hyundai Canada to see what their policy is, and they said they do not
'replace' vehicles, only fix them. I guess they do not have any kind
of policy that if you own the vehicle for a certain time frame and an
obvious manufacturer/assembly problem causes a problem, you get a
replacement car.
What kind of rights does my sister have in this case? If they refuse
a trade/replacement vehicle, can she take them or Hyundai Canada to
court and sue to get a new car?
Thanks!
Paula
09-21-2004, 08:21 AM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
"Paula" <pokee@shaw.ca> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3da73f8d.0409202145.186d169a@posting.google.c om...
> I need your advice!
What did it happen exactly to engine? Quite rare such an evenience like that
one you wrote...
Zotto
09-21-2004, 04:58 PM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
Don't want to aggravate you further, but i've had dealings with Hyundai
Canada and they are terrible to deal with. Had some upholstery coming off an
armrest 3 days after I picked up my car and they denied the repair. They
will exercise the warranty down to a T and say that the engine will need to
be replaced/ordered. The most you can do is probably get a loaner from them
for the time it takes to get it fixed. Maybe they'll pay for a rental but
you will have to be persistent with your dealer and head office.
Doron
"Paula" <pokee@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3da73f8d.0409202145.186d169a@posting.google.c om...
>I need your advice! My sister bought a 2004 Santa Fe last week and
> after driving it for one week, the engine seized. They *think* they
> know the cause, but they are not sure. The dealership tells her all
> they can do is replace the engine, then they want to keep it on the
> lot for a few weeks to monitor it to make sure there are no more
> problems.
>
> My sister is livid. She bought a new car and traded in an older one
> that was no longer reliable. She thought a brand new car ensured
> reliability (I guess not the case!), now she will be stuck with a
> lemon.
>
> She is attempting to get the dealership to replace the vehicle (or do
> a trade at her loss, since she does not want the lemon). She called
> Hyundai Canada to see what their policy is, and they said they do not
> 'replace' vehicles, only fix them. I guess they do not have any kind
> of policy that if you own the vehicle for a certain time frame and an
> obvious manufacturer/assembly problem causes a problem, you get a
> replacement car.
>
> What kind of rights does my sister have in this case? If they refuse
> a trade/replacement vehicle, can she take them or Hyundai Canada to
> court and sue to get a new car?
>
> Thanks!
> Paula
Canada and they are terrible to deal with. Had some upholstery coming off an
armrest 3 days after I picked up my car and they denied the repair. They
will exercise the warranty down to a T and say that the engine will need to
be replaced/ordered. The most you can do is probably get a loaner from them
for the time it takes to get it fixed. Maybe they'll pay for a rental but
you will have to be persistent with your dealer and head office.
Doron
"Paula" <pokee@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3da73f8d.0409202145.186d169a@posting.google.c om...
>I need your advice! My sister bought a 2004 Santa Fe last week and
> after driving it for one week, the engine seized. They *think* they
> know the cause, but they are not sure. The dealership tells her all
> they can do is replace the engine, then they want to keep it on the
> lot for a few weeks to monitor it to make sure there are no more
> problems.
>
> My sister is livid. She bought a new car and traded in an older one
> that was no longer reliable. She thought a brand new car ensured
> reliability (I guess not the case!), now she will be stuck with a
> lemon.
>
> She is attempting to get the dealership to replace the vehicle (or do
> a trade at her loss, since she does not want the lemon). She called
> Hyundai Canada to see what their policy is, and they said they do not
> 'replace' vehicles, only fix them. I guess they do not have any kind
> of policy that if you own the vehicle for a certain time frame and an
> obvious manufacturer/assembly problem causes a problem, you get a
> replacement car.
>
> What kind of rights does my sister have in this case? If they refuse
> a trade/replacement vehicle, can she take them or Hyundai Canada to
> court and sue to get a new car?
>
> Thanks!
> Paula
09-21-2004, 06:55 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
Why would another car be any better than fixing the one you have?
Effectively, they're both brand new and they'll be putting brand new parts
in the one you have in order to repair it. Sure, it's disconcerting to
have the problem in the first place, but there's no benefit to replacing
the whole vehicle. If cars didn't have problems, you wouldn't need a
warranty. My advice is to relax and let them fix the car. A competent
dealer will do a fine job.
It would be nice (although not part of the warranty coverage) for Hyundai
to provide you with a substitute vehicle until yours is repaired. If
you're persistent, you'll probably get that.
("You" and "your" refer to the vehicle owner).
Effectively, they're both brand new and they'll be putting brand new parts
in the one you have in order to repair it. Sure, it's disconcerting to
have the problem in the first place, but there's no benefit to replacing
the whole vehicle. If cars didn't have problems, you wouldn't need a
warranty. My advice is to relax and let them fix the car. A competent
dealer will do a fine job.
It would be nice (although not part of the warranty coverage) for Hyundai
to provide you with a substitute vehicle until yours is repaired. If
you're persistent, you'll probably get that.
("You" and "your" refer to the vehicle owner).
09-25-2004, 05:59 PM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
What exactly is the cause of the engine failure? Hyundai should be
providing your sister with a loaner vehicle, be sure to demand it because
they are not very giving. My mother has a 2004 Santa Fe that she bought 4
months ago and it has been at the dealership for the last month with a
blown engine. They are saying that because she took it to an independent
garage for her first oil change, they started to engine with no oil.
That's not true because she was there the whole time. Yet Hyundai would
only allow the dealership to remove the bottom part of the engine to
reveal "scored bearings" they have been very hesitant with disassembling
the rest of the engine although they know there is a problem on top of the
engine. We feel it is a defective part within and Hyundai has chosen to
void her warranty and wants her to pay $10,000 for a new engine. Beware
of the Hyundai warranty. After doing much research, warranty problems are
the biggest complaint with consumers that have engine and/or transmission
problems. I've had my 2004 Santa Fe in 3 times for transmission problems
already. Please find out what they are saying is wrong with the engine,
I'm curious to know. They have expressed to us that the Santa Fe's "never
have engine problems" and that's why they are blaming her for the cause.
providing your sister with a loaner vehicle, be sure to demand it because
they are not very giving. My mother has a 2004 Santa Fe that she bought 4
months ago and it has been at the dealership for the last month with a
blown engine. They are saying that because she took it to an independent
garage for her first oil change, they started to engine with no oil.
That's not true because she was there the whole time. Yet Hyundai would
only allow the dealership to remove the bottom part of the engine to
reveal "scored bearings" they have been very hesitant with disassembling
the rest of the engine although they know there is a problem on top of the
engine. We feel it is a defective part within and Hyundai has chosen to
void her warranty and wants her to pay $10,000 for a new engine. Beware
of the Hyundai warranty. After doing much research, warranty problems are
the biggest complaint with consumers that have engine and/or transmission
problems. I've had my 2004 Santa Fe in 3 times for transmission problems
already. Please find out what they are saying is wrong with the engine,
I'm curious to know. They have expressed to us that the Santa Fe's "never
have engine problems" and that's why they are blaming her for the cause.
09-25-2004, 06:12 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
DO you know what caused the engine failure? Demand an explanation from the
dealership. My mother's 2004 Santa Fe has been at the dealership for the
past 4 weeks with engine failure, although they are blaming it on the
garage that did her 1st oil change. They are trying to say that the garage
started the car with no oil during the oil change which is not the case
because my mother was there the entire time the oil was being changed. Her
bearings are severly scorred and for some reason, Hyundai is very hesitant
about looking at the top of the engine although they know there are
additional problems. They want her to pay $10,000 to replace the engine.
She has 3147 miles on it. Beware of Hyundai's warranty also, they would
not even look at the SUV for 2 weeks because it has an "aftermarket" oil
filter on it and they want to completely void out her warranty because of
it. Please let me know what you find out, i'm very curious to know the
cause.
dealership. My mother's 2004 Santa Fe has been at the dealership for the
past 4 weeks with engine failure, although they are blaming it on the
garage that did her 1st oil change. They are trying to say that the garage
started the car with no oil during the oil change which is not the case
because my mother was there the entire time the oil was being changed. Her
bearings are severly scorred and for some reason, Hyundai is very hesitant
about looking at the top of the engine although they know there are
additional problems. They want her to pay $10,000 to replace the engine.
She has 3147 miles on it. Beware of Hyundai's warranty also, they would
not even look at the SUV for 2 weeks because it has an "aftermarket" oil
filter on it and they want to completely void out her warranty because of
it. Please let me know what you find out, i'm very curious to know the
cause.
09-26-2004, 07:38 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
I would think the dealership stands to make a ton of money in labor
costs replacing the engine, so I doubt they will even attempt to try
to replace the entire vehicle. Money makes the world go round, and
even at the expense of others, they will try to suck in as much money
as they can. The Hyundai dealer actually tried to take me to court
because they found out they undercharged me by $40.00 when I bought my
'04 Sonata. Now I wouldn't even let them clean my ash try (if I
smoked) I go to a different dealer
On 20 Sep 2004 22:45:06 -0700, pokee@shaw.ca (Paula) wrote:
>I need your advice! My sister bought a 2004 Santa Fe last week and
>after driving it for one week, the engine seized. They *think* they
>know the cause, but they are not sure. The dealership tells her all
>they can do is replace the engine, then they want to keep it on the
>lot for a few weeks to monitor it to make sure there are no more
>problems.
>
>My sister is livid. She bought a new car and traded in an older one
>that was no longer reliable. She thought a brand new car ensured
>reliability (I guess not the case!), now she will be stuck with a
>lemon.
>
>She is attempting to get the dealership to replace the vehicle (or do
>a trade at her loss, since she does not want the lemon). She called
>Hyundai Canada to see what their policy is, and they said they do not
>'replace' vehicles, only fix them. I guess they do not have any kind
>of policy that if you own the vehicle for a certain time frame and an
>obvious manufacturer/assembly problem causes a problem, you get a
>replacement car.
>
>What kind of rights does my sister have in this case? If they refuse
>a trade/replacement vehicle, can she take them or Hyundai Canada to
>court and sue to get a new car?
>
>Thanks!
>Paula
costs replacing the engine, so I doubt they will even attempt to try
to replace the entire vehicle. Money makes the world go round, and
even at the expense of others, they will try to suck in as much money
as they can. The Hyundai dealer actually tried to take me to court
because they found out they undercharged me by $40.00 when I bought my
'04 Sonata. Now I wouldn't even let them clean my ash try (if I
smoked) I go to a different dealer
On 20 Sep 2004 22:45:06 -0700, pokee@shaw.ca (Paula) wrote:
>I need your advice! My sister bought a 2004 Santa Fe last week and
>after driving it for one week, the engine seized. They *think* they
>know the cause, but they are not sure. The dealership tells her all
>they can do is replace the engine, then they want to keep it on the
>lot for a few weeks to monitor it to make sure there are no more
>problems.
>
>My sister is livid. She bought a new car and traded in an older one
>that was no longer reliable. She thought a brand new car ensured
>reliability (I guess not the case!), now she will be stuck with a
>lemon.
>
>She is attempting to get the dealership to replace the vehicle (or do
>a trade at her loss, since she does not want the lemon). She called
>Hyundai Canada to see what their policy is, and they said they do not
>'replace' vehicles, only fix them. I guess they do not have any kind
>of policy that if you own the vehicle for a certain time frame and an
>obvious manufacturer/assembly problem causes a problem, you get a
>replacement car.
>
>What kind of rights does my sister have in this case? If they refuse
>a trade/replacement vehicle, can she take them or Hyundai Canada to
>court and sue to get a new car?
>
>Thanks!
>Paula
09-27-2004, 09:44 AM
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
me wrote:
> I would think the dealership stands to make a ton of money in labor
> costs replacing the engine, so I doubt they will even attempt to try
> to replace the entire vehicle. Money makes the world go round, and
> even at the expense of others, they will try to suck in as much money
> as they can.
Actually, they are paid by the job and typically the money paid by
Hyundai for such work is barely enough to break even, if that. That's
one reason why car dealers in general are not fond of doing warranty
work. They make their money on work that gets billed by the hour and on
quick service items like oil changes and scheduled services.
> The Hyundai dealer actually tried to take me to court
> because they found out they undercharged me by $40.00 when I bought my
> '04 Sonata. Now I wouldn't even let them clean my ash try (if I
> smoked) I go to a different dealer
$40??? That dealership qualifies as "moron of the month".
> I would think the dealership stands to make a ton of money in labor
> costs replacing the engine, so I doubt they will even attempt to try
> to replace the entire vehicle. Money makes the world go round, and
> even at the expense of others, they will try to suck in as much money
> as they can.
Actually, they are paid by the job and typically the money paid by
Hyundai for such work is barely enough to break even, if that. That's
one reason why car dealers in general are not fond of doing warranty
work. They make their money on work that gets billed by the hour and on
quick service items like oil changes and scheduled services.
> The Hyundai dealer actually tried to take me to court
> because they found out they undercharged me by $40.00 when I bought my
> '04 Sonata. Now I wouldn't even let them clean my ash try (if I
> smoked) I go to a different dealer
$40??? That dealership qualifies as "moron of the month".
10-02-2004, 09:45 PM
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
Has the dealership told you exactly what is wrong with the vehicle? I am
very curious because my mom's 3 month old Santa Fe (3147 miles) engine
just blew and it's been at the dealership for a month now. It happened 2
weeks and 285 miles after her first oil change. Hyundai won't honor her
warranty though because she went to an independent garage and there's an
"aftermarket" filter on the vehicle. Please let me know what they say is
wrong with the vehicle.
Thanks
very curious because my mom's 3 month old Santa Fe (3147 miles) engine
just blew and it's been at the dealership for a month now. It happened 2
weeks and 285 miles after her first oil change. Hyundai won't honor her
warranty though because she went to an independent garage and there's an
"aftermarket" filter on the vehicle. Please let me know what they say is
wrong with the vehicle.
Thanks
10-03-2004, 04:05 PM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
They won't honor it because of an aftermarket filter? That would
really suck. The more I hear about Hyundai, the more I regret buying
this '04 Sonata (I get my oil changed every 3,000 miles, but never at
the Hyundai dealership, so I guess I'd be screwed also if I develop
engine problems)
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:45:41 -0400, "kjs" <superb9571@aol.com> wrote:
>Has the dealership told you exactly what is wrong with the vehicle? I am
>very curious because my mom's 3 month old Santa Fe (3147 miles) engine
>just blew and it's been at the dealership for a month now. It happened 2
>weeks and 285 miles after her first oil change. Hyundai won't honor her
>warranty though because she went to an independent garage and there's an
>"aftermarket" filter on the vehicle. Please let me know what they say is
>wrong with the vehicle.
>Thanks
>
really suck. The more I hear about Hyundai, the more I regret buying
this '04 Sonata (I get my oil changed every 3,000 miles, but never at
the Hyundai dealership, so I guess I'd be screwed also if I develop
engine problems)
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:45:41 -0400, "kjs" <superb9571@aol.com> wrote:
>Has the dealership told you exactly what is wrong with the vehicle? I am
>very curious because my mom's 3 month old Santa Fe (3147 miles) engine
>just blew and it's been at the dealership for a month now. It happened 2
>weeks and 285 miles after her first oil change. Hyundai won't honor her
>warranty though because she went to an independent garage and there's an
>"aftermarket" filter on the vehicle. Please let me know what they say is
>wrong with the vehicle.
>Thanks
>
10-03-2004, 11:02 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
I don't even know where to start here so I'll try to start from what I
think is the begining. 1st, I currently own an 02 SantaFe with 25K
miles on it with no problems. 2. I do all my own oil changes (and most
maintenance items) that are not covered by a warranty. 3. I always use
a factory flter during the warranty period (less than $4 a change and
most quick lube places will be more then happy to use it and discount
your service). 4. It is COMMON for quick lube type places to let you
drive off without oil in the engine. I would guess about 5% of the
time it happens and it WILL burn the bearings (othewise they wont be
burnt,except for maybe an oil pump problem). 5. The main question here
is how long after you left the oil change shop did the car stop? Most
cars will fail before 10 miles (and alarms will be going off too BTW).
6. DOA engines are not uncommon either, I would guess <1% of ALL
engines not just Hyundia's are DOA. 3000 plus miles is NOT DOA, so
SOMETHING happened. Most likely oil related.
What should happen? Well, if your lucky, Hyundai will replace the
engine, you will get a loaner car and life goes on. That is the most
likely outcome. If you feel like its a lemon, dump it with 5K miles on
it and cut your losses.
Good Luck, and Hyundai DOES make good cars and engines (I know, I've
owned 2 current models and have been very impressed with the quality).
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 20:05:33 GMT, noemail@here.com (me) wrote:
>They won't honor it because of an aftermarket filter? That would
>really suck. The more I hear about Hyundai, the more I regret buying
>this '04 Sonata (I get my oil changed every 3,000 miles, but never at
>the Hyundai dealership, so I guess I'd be screwed also if I develop
>engine problems)
>
>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:45:41 -0400, "kjs" <superb9571@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Has the dealership told you exactly what is wrong with the vehicle? I am
>>very curious because my mom's 3 month old Santa Fe (3147 miles) engine
>>just blew and it's been at the dealership for a month now. It happened 2
>>weeks and 285 miles after her first oil change. Hyundai won't honor her
>>warranty though because she went to an independent garage and there's an
>>"aftermarket" filter on the vehicle. Please let me know what they say is
>>wrong with the vehicle.
>>Thanks
>>
think is the begining. 1st, I currently own an 02 SantaFe with 25K
miles on it with no problems. 2. I do all my own oil changes (and most
maintenance items) that are not covered by a warranty. 3. I always use
a factory flter during the warranty period (less than $4 a change and
most quick lube places will be more then happy to use it and discount
your service). 4. It is COMMON for quick lube type places to let you
drive off without oil in the engine. I would guess about 5% of the
time it happens and it WILL burn the bearings (othewise they wont be
burnt,except for maybe an oil pump problem). 5. The main question here
is how long after you left the oil change shop did the car stop? Most
cars will fail before 10 miles (and alarms will be going off too BTW).
6. DOA engines are not uncommon either, I would guess <1% of ALL
engines not just Hyundia's are DOA. 3000 plus miles is NOT DOA, so
SOMETHING happened. Most likely oil related.
What should happen? Well, if your lucky, Hyundai will replace the
engine, you will get a loaner car and life goes on. That is the most
likely outcome. If you feel like its a lemon, dump it with 5K miles on
it and cut your losses.
Good Luck, and Hyundai DOES make good cars and engines (I know, I've
owned 2 current models and have been very impressed with the quality).
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 20:05:33 GMT, noemail@here.com (me) wrote:
>They won't honor it because of an aftermarket filter? That would
>really suck. The more I hear about Hyundai, the more I regret buying
>this '04 Sonata (I get my oil changed every 3,000 miles, but never at
>the Hyundai dealership, so I guess I'd be screwed also if I develop
>engine problems)
>
>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 21:45:41 -0400, "kjs" <superb9571@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Has the dealership told you exactly what is wrong with the vehicle? I am
>>very curious because my mom's 3 month old Santa Fe (3147 miles) engine
>>just blew and it's been at the dealership for a month now. It happened 2
>>weeks and 285 miles after her first oil change. Hyundai won't honor her
>>warranty though because she went to an independent garage and there's an
>>"aftermarket" filter on the vehicle. Please let me know what they say is
>>wrong with the vehicle.
>>Thanks
>>
10-04-2004, 12:56 PM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
Absolutely stand by having the dealer tell you specifically what caused the
failure. I have heard of cases of oil filters not allowing enough oil to
the engine, but have not seen any. The only way I can see that this
wouldn't be a warranty issue is if there were some problem with the filter
or oil or installation at the lube place.
failure. I have heard of cases of oil filters not allowing enough oil to
the engine, but have not seen any. The only way I can see that this
wouldn't be a warranty issue is if there were some problem with the filter
or oil or installation at the lube place.
10-04-2004, 07:45 PM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
I would think that refusing to fix the problem because a non-factory oil
filter was used is illegal. Sure, there are better filters than others out
there, but they all do the basic job (assuming they fit your vehicle).
So short of the oil draining out of the engine because the shop screwed
something up when you had your oil changed, this is a warranty repair, big
time!!!
Kevin
"hyundaitech" <howitsac@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ba905e62b03e9c68983cdf96ebd2fccd@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> Absolutely stand by having the dealer tell you specifically what caused
the
> failure. I have heard of cases of oil filters not allowing enough oil to
> the engine, but have not seen any. The only way I can see that this
> wouldn't be a warranty issue is if there were some problem with the filter
> or oil or installation at the lube place.
>
filter was used is illegal. Sure, there are better filters than others out
there, but they all do the basic job (assuming they fit your vehicle).
So short of the oil draining out of the engine because the shop screwed
something up when you had your oil changed, this is a warranty repair, big
time!!!
Kevin
"hyundaitech" <howitsac@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ba905e62b03e9c68983cdf96ebd2fccd@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> Absolutely stand by having the dealer tell you specifically what caused
the
> failure. I have heard of cases of oil filters not allowing enough oil to
> the engine, but have not seen any. The only way I can see that this
> wouldn't be a warranty issue is if there were some problem with the filter
> or oil or installation at the lube place.
>
10-04-2004, 09:47 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: One Week Old Santa Fe - Engine Failure - HELP!
If the filter caused the failure, then there's the issue. The manufacturer
is not responsible for any filter other than theirs. On the other hand, if
the manufacturer can't show how the filter/oil/installation caused the
failure, they lose in court very quickly.
is not responsible for any filter other than theirs. On the other hand, if
the manufacturer can't show how the filter/oil/installation caused the
failure, they lose in court very quickly.