Re: sludge
 

'CDI provided demonstrable advantages. That is why car makers switched
to using them. Engine flushes don't have demonstrable advantages, that
is why no car make recommends them.
Matt '

REPLY: Synthetic fluids have demonstrable advantages, yet not all Car
Mfg's recommend them in their owners manual. Same with K and N intake
air filters and a host of other things.

Re: sludge
 

"Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14536-44AE60CC-112@storefull-3238.bay.webtv.net...
> 'But my question was: What point are you trying to make by relating the
> way cars have operated prior to the existence of the de-sludging machine
> - which I guess could be used on most any vehicle - to something like
> CDI, which is not present on, and cannot be adapted to be used with most
> normal vehicles?'
>
> REPLY: I was indicating that many things that are now used or can be
> added on a vehicle (Desludging machine, CDI , EFI, etc, etc...) werent
> used on automobiles in the distant past yet they operated fairly well
> without them. This however, doesnt mean that they are not beneficial for
> us today.
>

I think the underlying question is "is XXX really beneficial"? If a motor
will predictably run 200,000 plus miles, and has reliably exhibited this
capability using nothing more than regular changes of simple dino motor oil,
what is the real world advantage of the flush? Sure - it demonstrates that
it removes at least some of the sludge, but at what measurable benefit? The
car as a whole is likely not worth the effort in attempting to get another
200,000 miles from, so that infamous rule of diminishing returns quickly
becomes a consideration. For what it's worth - this is the very argument I
use to support my continued use of dino oil instead of synthetics.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Re: sludge
 

"Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14536-44AE60CC-112@storefull-3238.bay.webtv.net...
> 'But my question was: What point are you trying to make by relating the
> way cars have operated prior to the existence of the de-sludging machine
> - which I guess could be used on most any vehicle - to something like
> CDI, which is not present on, and cannot be adapted to be used with most
> normal vehicles?'
>
> REPLY: I was indicating that many things that are now used or can be
> added on a vehicle (Desludging machine, CDI , EFI, etc, etc...) werent
> used on automobiles in the distant past yet they operated fairly well
> without them. This however, doesnt mean that they are not beneficial for
> us today.
>

I think the underlying question is "is XXX really beneficial"? If a motor
will predictably run 200,000 plus miles, and has reliably exhibited this
capability using nothing more than regular changes of simple dino motor oil,
what is the real world advantage of the flush? Sure - it demonstrates that
it removes at least some of the sludge, but at what measurable benefit? The
car as a whole is likely not worth the effort in attempting to get another
200,000 miles from, so that infamous rule of diminishing returns quickly
becomes a consideration. For what it's worth - this is the very argument I
use to support my continued use of dino oil instead of synthetics.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Re: sludge
 

"Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14536-44AE60CC-112@storefull-3238.bay.webtv.net...
> 'But my question was: What point are you trying to make by relating the
> way cars have operated prior to the existence of the de-sludging machine
> - which I guess could be used on most any vehicle - to something like
> CDI, which is not present on, and cannot be adapted to be used with most
> normal vehicles?'
>
> REPLY: I was indicating that many things that are now used or can be
> added on a vehicle (Desludging machine, CDI , EFI, etc, etc...) werent
> used on automobiles in the distant past yet they operated fairly well
> without them. This however, doesnt mean that they are not beneficial for
> us today.
>

I think the underlying question is "is XXX really beneficial"? If a motor
will predictably run 200,000 plus miles, and has reliably exhibited this
capability using nothing more than regular changes of simple dino motor oil,
what is the real world advantage of the flush? Sure - it demonstrates that
it removes at least some of the sludge, but at what measurable benefit? The
car as a whole is likely not worth the effort in attempting to get another
200,000 miles from, so that infamous rule of diminishing returns quickly
becomes a consideration. For what it's worth - this is the very argument I
use to support my continued use of dino oil instead of synthetics.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Re: sludge
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
>
>
> I should have figured you'd just spew all this nonsensical rhetoric.
> Typical. Well, at least you're doing more to alienate people from your
> cause than to convert them, so there will fewer zealots like you in the
> future.

Which is EXACTLY the reason I asked him to answer this question in
alt.rv: "Am still wondering why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?"

Did I mention about his "OT
and unwanted Christian Fundamentalistic proselytizing"?

I like to google (yes it's a recognized verb now) up people before
entering into a discussion with them.
He has a long record of this same behavior.

Re: sludge
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
>
>
> I should have figured you'd just spew all this nonsensical rhetoric.
> Typical. Well, at least you're doing more to alienate people from your
> cause than to convert them, so there will fewer zealots like you in the
> future.

Which is EXACTLY the reason I asked him to answer this question in
alt.rv: "Am still wondering why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?"

Did I mention about his "OT
and unwanted Christian Fundamentalistic proselytizing"?

I like to google (yes it's a recognized verb now) up people before
entering into a discussion with them.
He has a long record of this same behavior.

Re: sludge
 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
>
>
> I should have figured you'd just spew all this nonsensical rhetoric.
> Typical. Well, at least you're doing more to alienate people from your
> cause than to convert them, so there will fewer zealots like you in the
> future.

Which is EXACTLY the reason I asked him to answer this question in
alt.rv: "Am still wondering why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?"

Did I mention about his "OT
and unwanted Christian Fundamentalistic proselytizing"?

I like to google (yes it's a recognized verb now) up people before
entering into a discussion with them.
He has a long record of this same behavior.

Re: sludge
 

Another bad example. The oil from a K&N can damage your air flow sensor.

Re: sludge
 

Another bad example. The oil from a K&N can damage your air flow sensor.

Re: sludge
 

Another bad example. The oil from a K&N can damage your air flow sensor.

Re: sludge
 

I'll interject here that Dave's experience is one of the few actual
benefits of an engine flush. If you do happen to get something lodged in
a small passage, the flusher could possibly push it out.

If I had a customer with a valve tap, I'd recommend trying an engine flush
prior to engaging in extensive and costly engine repairs. What's to lose?


But it's also important to know that success in these endeavors is mixed.
I've stopped some valve taps with the machine, but others still remained.
I had one car flushed after the owner failed to change the oil and the
delivery passages were restricted. It bought the customer about 6 months
before the bearing clearances were bad enough that the oil pressure was
low.

I don't have a problem with the flusher, particularly. Like most things,
it has a usefulness that cannot be denied. But the issue is that services
like this marketed as some sort of regular maintenance service or some
magic bullet. Well, they aren't. There's no benefit to flushing an
engine crankcase that has no problem.

If your engine is sludged, but you are having no actual oiling issues, the
procedure has no more value than adding 1/2 qt. of ATF with each oil
change, and, like Matt correctly pointed out, the flush can *cause*
problems if pieces of sludge are knocked loose into the oil pan. With no
oiling issues, it'd be far better to try to gradually dissolve the sludge.

Re: sludge
 

I'll interject here that Dave's experience is one of the few actual
benefits of an engine flush. If you do happen to get something lodged in
a small passage, the flusher could possibly push it out.

If I had a customer with a valve tap, I'd recommend trying an engine flush
prior to engaging in extensive and costly engine repairs. What's to lose?


But it's also important to know that success in these endeavors is mixed.
I've stopped some valve taps with the machine, but others still remained.
I had one car flushed after the owner failed to change the oil and the
delivery passages were restricted. It bought the customer about 6 months
before the bearing clearances were bad enough that the oil pressure was
low.

I don't have a problem with the flusher, particularly. Like most things,
it has a usefulness that cannot be denied. But the issue is that services
like this marketed as some sort of regular maintenance service or some
magic bullet. Well, they aren't. There's no benefit to flushing an
engine crankcase that has no problem.

If your engine is sludged, but you are having no actual oiling issues, the
procedure has no more value than adding 1/2 qt. of ATF with each oil
change, and, like Matt correctly pointed out, the flush can *cause*
problems if pieces of sludge are knocked loose into the oil pan. With no
oiling issues, it'd be far better to try to gradually dissolve the sludge.

Re: sludge
 

I'll interject here that Dave's experience is one of the few actual
benefits of an engine flush. If you do happen to get something lodged in
a small passage, the flusher could possibly push it out.

If I had a customer with a valve tap, I'd recommend trying an engine flush
prior to engaging in extensive and costly engine repairs. What's to lose?


But it's also important to know that success in these endeavors is mixed.
I've stopped some valve taps with the machine, but others still remained.
I had one car flushed after the owner failed to change the oil and the
delivery passages were restricted. It bought the customer about 6 months
before the bearing clearances were bad enough that the oil pressure was
low.

I don't have a problem with the flusher, particularly. Like most things,
it has a usefulness that cannot be denied. But the issue is that services
like this marketed as some sort of regular maintenance service or some
magic bullet. Well, they aren't. There's no benefit to flushing an
engine crankcase that has no problem.

If your engine is sludged, but you are having no actual oiling issues, the
procedure has no more value than adding 1/2 qt. of ATF with each oil
change, and, like Matt correctly pointed out, the flush can *cause*
problems if pieces of sludge are knocked loose into the oil pan. With no
oiling issues, it'd be far better to try to gradually dissolve the sludge.

Re: sludge
 

Dave in Lake Villa wrote:

> 'Dave, you've said you are a Christian. So am I'
> Glad to hear that Matt. So, if you were to die very
> unexpectedly tonight and stand before God immediatly, how would you
> answer the question of him asking you :" Matt, why should i let you into
> Heaven for eternity ?" .
>
> That is a topic for a different newsgroup.
>
> REPLY: Then feel free to email me with the answer you would give.

It isn't relevant to engine flushing.


> 'And you have the manufacturer's manual for your Hyundai also. It is
> called the owner's manual. Does it specify engine flushing using the
> Bilstein machine? If not, then why do you think it is necessary?'
>
> REPLY: I dont believe i ever said 'it is necessary' (??) However i do
> think it is advantageous . Does the Hyundai Manual recommend using
> synthetic fluids in the drivetrain ... even though synthetic fluids have
> a distinct advantage over the non types ?

No, and I would never say that anyone should use them unless they want
the very well documented benefits. I use synthetics purely for the cold
starting advantage. They are overkill in pretty much every other way as
I don't run extended drain intervals and I don't race, etc. However,
for me the cold start benefit alone is worth the incremental cost. The
"data" at the Bilstein site was feeble even if true, with claimed
performance that isn't even above the measurement noise floor. This
isn't true with synthetic lubricants. There is tons of data from many
sources as to the benefit, so much so that some car makers (Chevrolet
with the Vette and Porsche) actually specify it.

Comparing engine flushing with synthetic oil is as specious as your
comparision to electronic ignition.


> 'I have investigated what I saw published about the Bilstein machine. It
> is simply an unnecessary gimmick, just like so many others designed to
> separate people from their money. Things such as transmission flushing
> machines, oil additives, etc.
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: Good...then youve taken the first step. If you have a Pep Boys
> or other place that uses the exact machine, then stop by and ask them if
> you can watch it being used as you have the desire to fully evaluate it.

I wouldn't let a Pep Boys employee within 10 feet of my car. I stopped
at an Autozone once to get the free scan tool read on my Plymouth van as
the MIL was lit. They gave me a code that made no sense at all as it
was a part that had been just recently replaced. I went to a Chrysler
dealer and they gave me the correct problem code. Places like that
can't even use a scan tool correctly. You think I'd let them access the
internals of my engine? Not going to happen.

Well, it is obvious that you are one of the folks that P.T. Barnum
talked about. Reason won't work with you so I'm done with this thread.

Matt

Re: sludge
 

Dave in Lake Villa wrote:

> 'Dave, you've said you are a Christian. So am I'
> Glad to hear that Matt. So, if you were to die very
> unexpectedly tonight and stand before God immediatly, how would you
> answer the question of him asking you :" Matt, why should i let you into
> Heaven for eternity ?" .
>
> That is a topic for a different newsgroup.
>
> REPLY: Then feel free to email me with the answer you would give.

It isn't relevant to engine flushing.


> 'And you have the manufacturer's manual for your Hyundai also. It is
> called the owner's manual. Does it specify engine flushing using the
> Bilstein machine? If not, then why do you think it is necessary?'
>
> REPLY: I dont believe i ever said 'it is necessary' (??) However i do
> think it is advantageous . Does the Hyundai Manual recommend using
> synthetic fluids in the drivetrain ... even though synthetic fluids have
> a distinct advantage over the non types ?

No, and I would never say that anyone should use them unless they want
the very well documented benefits. I use synthetics purely for the cold
starting advantage. They are overkill in pretty much every other way as
I don't run extended drain intervals and I don't race, etc. However,
for me the cold start benefit alone is worth the incremental cost. The
"data" at the Bilstein site was feeble even if true, with claimed
performance that isn't even above the measurement noise floor. This
isn't true with synthetic lubricants. There is tons of data from many
sources as to the benefit, so much so that some car makers (Chevrolet
with the Vette and Porsche) actually specify it.

Comparing engine flushing with synthetic oil is as specious as your
comparision to electronic ignition.


> 'I have investigated what I saw published about the Bilstein machine. It
> is simply an unnecessary gimmick, just like so many others designed to
> separate people from their money. Things such as transmission flushing
> machines, oil additives, etc.
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: Good...then youve taken the first step. If you have a Pep Boys
> or other place that uses the exact machine, then stop by and ask them if
> you can watch it being used as you have the desire to fully evaluate it.

I wouldn't let a Pep Boys employee within 10 feet of my car. I stopped
at an Autozone once to get the free scan tool read on my Plymouth van as
the MIL was lit. They gave me a code that made no sense at all as it
was a part that had been just recently replaced. I went to a Chrysler
dealer and they gave me the correct problem code. Places like that
can't even use a scan tool correctly. You think I'd let them access the
internals of my engine? Not going to happen.

Well, it is obvious that you are one of the folks that P.T. Barnum
talked about. Reason won't work with you so I'm done with this thread.

Matt