Michael Pardee

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:93530f2d-7eef-41cf-a629-1b255f5cfe89@s37g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...

Ok, the oil added test got me up to 120 today, but for a brief period
afterwards, and I mean just about 10 minutes, I had coolant leaking
from the exhaust. It is not leaking from the exhaust anymore, but
what the heck was that from? My son ran it in the lot next door for
an hour and there was no steam or anything coming from the exhaust, he
is still trying to learn how to drive a stick. Can you say "bunny
hop"? Did I open up a problem with the head gasket while trying to
determine the pressure on the first cylinder?

I think there may be a gremlin in my car.

================================================

This isn't sounding good. If you have a head gasket or valve problems on top
of the ring problem your adventure may be nearing an end.

Remove the radiator cap (engine cold, of course) and start the engine. Pinch
off the hose to the reservoir and place the palm of your hand over the
radiator cap opening. If you feel steady pressure rise in a couple of
seconds or - worse - pulsations, the head has to come off... at least. For
an older engine that has evidence of mistreatment that would by pretty
heroic.

But replacing an engine can be an adventure, too!

Mike

jack42038

On Dec 20, 11:52 am, "Michael Pardee" <n...@null.org> wrote:
> "jack42038" <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:93530f2d-7eef-41cf-a629-1b255f5cfe89@s37g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ok, the oil added test got me up to 120 today, but for a brief period
> afterwards, and I mean just about 10 minutes, I had coolant leaking
> from the exhaust. It is not leaking from the exhaust anymore, but
> what the heck was that from? My son ran it in the lot next door for
> an hour and there was no steam or anything coming from the exhaust, he
> is still trying to learn how to drive a stick. Can you say "bunny
> hop"? Did I open up a problem with the head gasket while trying to
> determine the pressure on the first cylinder?
>
> I think there may be a gremlin in my car.
>
> ================================================
>
> This isn't sounding good. If you have a head gasket or valve problems on top
> of the ring problem your adventure may be nearing an end.
>
> Remove the radiator cap (engine cold, of course) and start the engine. Pinch
> off the hose to the reservoir and place the palm of your hand over the
> radiator cap opening. If you feel steady pressure rise in a couple of
> seconds or - worse - pulsations, the head has to come off... at least. For
> an older engine that has evidence of mistreatment that would by pretty
> heroic.
>
> But replacing an engine can be an adventure, too!
>
> Mike

Ok, I have no logical explanation where the coolant came from.
Repeated the compression tests today, no coolant. Used a pressure
gauge on the radiator and it held almost 10# for quite some time.
Should it hold it indefinitely? My mechanic said no, but I am not
sure what to think sometimes.

Drove it all morning. No coolant came from the tail pipe.

Here's another mystery for ya. And this one leads me to believe that
someone is fouling with me. The coolant in the radiator is old and in
need of flushing bad. It is that sort of copper color (no oily swirl)
and there is no coolant in the oil pan. BUT, GET THIS, the coolant
that dripped from the tailpipe was bright green as if brand new.
There hasn't been new coolant near this car in ever.

Now, unless this is a sign of another type of problem, should I think
this to be illogical?

Thanks
Jack

Michael Pardee

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cfeb233f-0628-4778-9dec-18b544069f15@v13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

Ok, I have no logical explanation where the coolant came from.
Repeated the compression tests today, no coolant. Used a pressure
gauge on the radiator and it held almost 10# for quite some time.
Should it hold it indefinitely? My mechanic said no, but I am not
sure what to think sometimes.

Drove it all morning. No coolant came from the tail pipe.

Here's another mystery for ya. And this one leads me to believe that
someone is fouling with me. The coolant in the radiator is old and in
need of flushing bad. It is that sort of copper color (no oily swirl)
and there is no coolant in the oil pan. BUT, GET THIS, the coolant
that dripped from the tailpipe was bright green as if brand new.
There hasn't been new coolant near this car in ever.

Now, unless this is a sign of another type of problem, should I think
this to be illogical?

Thanks
Jack
================================================

Yeah, that is pretty irregular. If coolant had come through the exhaust it
would be in rough shape. If there were a leak from the combustion chambers
into the coolant the pressure would rise pretty rapidly and fluctuate a lot.
I think somebody spiked your tailpipe with antifreeze.

Mike

Elle

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote
Here's another mystery for ya. And this one leads me to
believe that
someone is fouling with me. The coolant in the radiator is
old and in
need of flushing bad. It is that sort of copper color (no
oily swirl)
and there is no coolant in the oil pan. BUT, GET THIS, the
coolant
that dripped from the tailpipe was bright green as if brand
new.
There hasn't been new coolant near this car in ever.
======================
On Monday Dec 15th you noted: "The inside of the valve cover
is also
covered in that black jellified oil. At some point this
thing got too
hot or too low on oil or something."
======================

Rule from navy nuke training: Believe your indications. Lack
of compression in cyl #1; signs of jellified oil at cylinder
head; coolant out tailpipe. Sure some of the indications
seem iffy but it is adding up. Throw in Occam's Razor (the
theory with the fewest assumptions is the one to pursue) and
I agree with Jim Beam's hunch: Your Accord has a breach of
the cooling system at #1 cylinder. It may not be a
consistent leak, but at the right temperature and pressure,
it re-commences.

Leftie

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:cfeb233f-0628-4778-9dec-18b544069f15@v13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ok, I have no logical explanation where the coolant came from.
> Repeated the compression tests today, no coolant. Used a pressure
> gauge on the radiator and it held almost 10# for quite some time.
> Should it hold it indefinitely? My mechanic said no, but I am not
> sure what to think sometimes.
>
> Drove it all morning. No coolant came from the tail pipe.
>
> Here's another mystery for ya. And this one leads me to believe that
> someone is fouling with me. The coolant in the radiator is old and in
> need of flushing bad. It is that sort of copper color (no oily swirl)
> and there is no coolant in the oil pan. BUT, GET THIS, the coolant
> that dripped from the tailpipe was bright green as if brand new.
> There hasn't been new coolant near this car in ever.
>
> Now, unless this is a sign of another type of problem, should I think
> this to be illogical?
>
> Thanks
> Jack
> ================================================
>
> Yeah, that is pretty irregular. If coolant had come through the exhaust it
> would be in rough shape. If there were a leak from the combustion chambers
> into the coolant the pressure would rise pretty rapidly and fluctuate a lot.
> I think somebody spiked your tailpipe with antifreeze.
>
> Mike
>
>

I suppose it's just possible that the coolant is being vaporized, is
condensing in the tailpipe, and the contaminants that appear in the
radiator are being removed. This sounds like the sort of screwy problem
I'd encounter.

jack42038

On Dec 21, 11:04 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "jack42038" <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Here's another mystery for ya. And this one leads me to
> believe that
> someone is fouling with me. The coolant in the radiator is
> old and in
> need of flushing bad. It is that sort of copper color (no
> oily swirl)
> and there is no coolant in the oil pan. BUT, GET THIS, the
> coolant
> that dripped from the tailpipe was bright green as if brand
> new.
> There hasn't been new coolant near this car in ever.
> ======================
> On Monday Dec 15th you noted: "The inside of the valve cover
> is also
> covered in that black jellified oil. At some point this
> thing got too
> hot or too low on oil or something."
> ======================
>
> Rule from navy nuke training: Believe your indications. Lack
> of compression in cyl #1; signs of jellified oil at cylinder
> head; coolant out tailpipe. Sure some of the indications
> seem iffy but it is adding up. Throw in Occam's Razor (the
> theory with the fewest assumptions is the one to pursue) and
> I agree with Jim Beam's hunch: Your Accord has a breach of
> the cooling system at #1 cylinder. It may not be a
> consistent leak, but at the right temperature and pressure,
> it re-commences.

So then, what we are talking about is a breach of the head gasket
somewhere in the area of the #1 cylinder, most likely on the timing
belt side, because # 2 cylinder is showing perfect pressure.

I have to tell you also that someone recently bought an s10 from me.
Within a couple days they came crying foul that the heater core was
bad and that coolant was spewing into the cab. The vehicle was
sitting at my mechanic's shop and he had not personally seen the
leak. I went over, started up the truck and sat there with the heat
on high for 45 minutes. It never offered to leak, spew or dribble.
The radiator and overflow were full. I called the buyer on it and he
just stammered all over himself and said the mechanic must have fixed
it. The mechanic had not. It is still not leaking.

So the possibility exists that this rat was trying to visit some kind
of prank on me. He was trying to get money back that he spent on the
truck, I know that much.

SO, yes, it could well be the head gasket. However, as Michael said,
it would have been fouled antifreeze from the exhaust system.
Wouldn't the problem also continue and not be a one time thing
coincidentally the day after my run in with this hoodlum? The exhaust
also does not blow steam, wouldn't that be concurrent with an
antifreeze leak through the engine? Wouldn't I also lose antifreeze,
I mean wouldn't my levels go down?

Elle I believe in logic as well. But I believe there are two threads
here. Regardless, if I do a head gasket and new rings, won't the
problem be resolved so long as the head is not warped? I have put
together all of the parts for less than 80 bucks from various
sources. Good brand name stuff that was sitting in the right places.

Until then, I am going to drive it and see what else it does and I
guess I will call the cops if I catch someone on my property. Either
that or let my hound dog lick them to death. Vicious beast that one.

Peace!
Jack

Elle

On the subject of a hoodlum messing with this Accord:

Jack, what exactly is the mechanism you are proposing said
hoodlum used? I am trying to picture this. Turkey baster
filled with anti-freeze dumped into exhaust pipe? Maybe I am
just naive about the tricks du jour to play on people's
cars. Michael? Did said hoodlum even know about this
Accord's problem and that you were troubleshooting it? The
theory seems a little far-fetched to me so far, but I can't
rule it out based on what you wrote. I am not ruling
anything out; just going with what I would most keep an eye
peeled for. Namely, a head gasket failure.

You're looking at the antifreeze in the reservoir and
comparing it to what blew out, right? I am not so sure they
would match in color and consistency.

As for not consistently blowing steam, it may be
intermittent depending on operating conditions.

While you are driving this sad little Accord around, monitor
that reservoir level. Goes high = exhaust gases dumping into
the cooling system. Goes low = blowing out tail pipe. As I
am sure you know.

It is possible the breach is in the block but I would
expect, based strictly on anecdotal reports, that the breach
is indeed the head gasket. Plenty change their head gaskets,
but like you say, watch out for warpage. Plenty also have
their engine head machined as a part of the gasket change.

Michael Pardee

I could only speculate how clean antifreeze would appear at the tailpipe,
but I'm having trouble figuring how it would get there from the engine. If
it's a fault in the head gasket at the #1 cylinder, the coolant could
certainly find itself into the combustion chamber there. If it does it when
the engine is running, we know that cylinder isn't firing (the injector has
been disabled) and it could certainly be pumped into the exhaust manifold.
There things get sticky. The other cylinders are firing, and glycol is
flammable. I've seen only a couple of seriously bad head gaskets, and
although the exhaust billows clouds of sweet smelling steam I don't recall
that they dripped antifreeze. If the coolant leaked into the cylinder aftert
shutdown it would wind up in the oil instead of the exhaust, since we are
assuming at this point the rings are not sealing well. Any coolant from the
engine would certainly be loaded with soot from the exhaust system, and it
doesn't sound like that is the case.

It could still be a bad head gasket, but I'm not convinced. If Jack hadn't
looked at the tailpipe we would have no other indications, which strikes me
as odd.

Mike

jack42038

On Dec 21, 6:29 pm, "Elle" <honda.lion...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the subject of a hoodlum messing with this Accord:
>
> Jack, what exactly is the mechanism you are proposing said
> hoodlum used? I am trying to picture this. Turkey baster
> filled with anti-freeze dumped into exhaust pipe? Maybe I am
> just naive about the tricks du jour to play on people's
> cars. Michael? Did said hoodlum even know about this
> Accord's problem and that you were troubleshooting it? The
> theory seems a little far-fetched to me so far, but I can't
> rule it out based on what you wrote. I am not ruling
> anything out; just going with what I would most keep an eye
> peeled for. Namely, a head gasket failure.
>
> You're looking at the antifreeze in the reservoir and
> comparing it to what blew out, right? I am not so sure they
> would match in color and consistency.
>
> As for not consistently blowing steam, it may be
> intermittent depending on operating conditions.
>
> While you are driving this sad little Accord around, monitor
> that reservoir level. Goes high = exhaust gases dumping into
> the cooling system. Goes low = blowing out tail pipe. As I
> am sure you know.
>
> It is possible the breach is in the block but I would
> expect, based strictly on anecdotal reports, that the breach
> is indeed the head gasket. Plenty change their head gaskets,
> but like you say, watch out for warpage. Plenty also have
> their engine head machined as a part of the gasket change.

Actually, the hoodlum in question did know about troubleshooting the
accord. He is always at my mechanic's place. He hangs around and
does get into a lot of trouble. He was recently caught skeet shooting
in the parking lot of his brother in law's business. During the day
when all the workers were there. He wasn't even drunk. He really is
not screwed together too tight.

#1. I am comparing the fluid that dripped from the tailpipe with that
in the radiator itself. Copper/Brown, which is the same color as what
is in the overflow bottle. The bright green stuff didn't show until I
backed down the driveway and changed the angle of the tailpipe by
doing so. On the carport the tailpipe is a smidge higher than the
muffler. Backing off of the carport the car drops down to a 25 degree
slope. It was at that point we noticed a puddle right where the
tailpipe had been because the headlights illuminated it. I got out to
inspect and it was bright green antifreeze. Again, how could it be
bright green if what's up front is brown? With the combustion
involved in the engine and the heat through the exhaust manifold it
would certainly not refine it back into brand new quality.
#2. I still haven't ruled out the blown head gasket. Because there is
a lack of pressure. However, I did plug the injector back in because
the car would not run right at all. I forgot to mention that back
several posts. Over 40 mph or so the car would have a very hard and
palpable miss with the injector unplugged. With the injector plugged
in, the car drives well at high speed.
#3. No soapy bubbles in the oil. It still hasn't come back out of the
tail pipe again. It's 13 degrees here right now. If getting from 13
to operating temperature does not induce some kind of change in shape
or pressure, I am not sure what would.

So, these are the things that are consistent: The cylinder appears
dead at idle, but at higher speeds the car does not drive well with
that injector unplugged. At this point I am pulling the plug after
almost every shutdown. It has a small amount of carbon around the end
of the thread head, but the point looks to be burning and is dry. It
is not covered with gas. I haven't checked the cylinder pressure
again, but last time a wet test showed 120# of pressure. Another good
thing is that everytime I get into the car it starts right up. At
least that's something.

I'm thinking I will make observations for a week or so on fluid levels
and performance and see what I find.

Peace and Pleasant Greetings without any obligation to return, accept
or believe in whatever.
Jack

jack42038

On Dec 22, 6:03 am, "Michael Pardee" <n...@null.org> wrote:
> I could only speculate how clean antifreeze would appear at the tailpipe,
> but I'm having trouble figuring how it would get there from the engine. If
> it's a fault in the head gasket at the #1 cylinder, the coolant could
> certainly find itself into the combustion chamber there. If it does it when
> the engine is running, we know that cylinder isn't firing (the injector has
> been disabled) and it could certainly be pumped into the exhaust manifold..
> There things get sticky. The other cylinders are firing, and glycol is
> flammable. I've seen only a couple of seriously bad head gaskets, and
> although the exhaust billows clouds of sweet smelling steam I don't recall
> that they dripped antifreeze. If the coolant leaked into the cylinder aftert
> shutdown it would wind up in the oil instead of the exhaust, since we are
> assuming at this point the rings are not sealing well. Any coolant from the
> engine would certainly be loaded with soot from the exhaust system, and it
> doesn't sound like that is the case.
>
> It could still be a bad head gasket, but I'm not convinced. If Jack hadn't
> looked at the tailpipe we would have no other indications, which strikes me
> as odd.
>
> Mike

Update 12/23/08
Car now has new rear tires, rides a lot smoother.

Observations
!. Cylinder number 1 is not registering at just under 100lbs of
compression without a "wet test". It's going the right direction.
2. Removing the spark plug wire from that plug has a definite effect
on the engine, but not as dramatic as when removing one of the others.
3. Absolutely drove and ran the heck out of it the last two days. To
boot, my son is learning to drive a manual in this thing, so you know
what is happening to it. No antifreeze leaking from the exhaust and
the antifreeze level has not dropped in the overflow or the radiator.
4. It has not used any oil and it is still clear. It still has those
solvents in it though and i will probably change the oil in another
day or two. It smells like a mixture between oil and paint thinner.
(Considering what all I put in there, that is no suprise.)
5. The plug point and arm are clean and are a light brown in color.
There is a small amount of carbon around the thread sleeve end, but
that's it.

Questions.
1. Is there a special kind of power steering fluid for this vehicle
that would be a different color than red?
2. An increase in compression is not a solution to the problem. What
might the 25# gain reflect?
3. Any ideas on how to communicate the idea of "smooth shifting" to a
20 yo college student??

Peace!
Jack

Michael Pardee

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a4db5d1b-44f5-4b5f-b5b4-dbfc54da097c@20g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...

Questions.
1. Is there a special kind of power steering fluid for this vehicle
that would be a different color than red?

Absolutely! Use only Honda or explicitly Honda-compatible power steering
fluid. Common types will attack the seals.

2. An increase in compression is not a solution to the problem. What
might the 25# gain reflect?

I think the increase is just not enough yet for it to work right. Could be
the rings are free but the cylinder wall is damaged. That begs the question:
if this is as good as it gets, is it good enough for your purposes? The
student stick driver may bias the answer toward "yes."

3. Any ideas on how to communicate the idea of "smooth shifting" to a
20 yo college student??

In the "Luann" comic strip Toni explained the proper clutch release to Luann
as "like pulling on stockings." ;-) Perhaps putting a partly full bowl of
water in his lap?

Peace!
Jack

jack42038

On Dec 23, 6:33 pm, "Michael Pardee" <n...@null.org> wrote:
> "jack42038" <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a4db5d1b-44f5-4b5f-b5b4-dbfc54da097c@20g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
>
> Questions.
> 1. Is there a special kind of power steering fluid for this vehicle
> that would be a different color than red?
>
> Absolutely! Use only Honda or explicitly Honda-compatible power steering
> fluid. Common types will attack the seals.
>
> 2. An increase in compression is not a solution to the problem. What
> might the 25# gain reflect?
>
> I think the increase is just not enough yet for it to work right. Could be
> the rings are free but the cylinder wall is damaged. That begs the question:
> if this is as good as it gets, is it good enough for your purposes? The
> student stick driver may bias the answer toward "yes."
>
> 3. Any ideas on how to communicate the idea of "smooth shifting" to a
> 20 yo college student??
>
> In the "Luann" comic strip Toni explained the proper clutch release to Luann
> as "like pulling on stockings." ;-) Perhaps putting a partly full bowl of
> water in his lap?
>
> Peace!
> Jack

Ok, the guys at the shop put in regular power steering fluid when I
had the tires changed. They said it would be fine. What do I do and
how do I change it?

Doggone it, aren't these fellas supposed to know this stuff????

Thanks
jack

jack42038

On Dec 23, 6:33 pm, "Michael Pardee" <n...@null.org> wrote:
> "jack42038" <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a4db5d1b-44f5-4b5f-b5b4-dbfc54da097c@20g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
>
> Questions.
> 1. Is there a special kind of power steering fluid for this vehicle
> that would be a different color than red?
>
> Absolutely! Use only Honda or explicitly Honda-compatible power steering
> fluid. Common types will attack the seals.
>
> 2. An increase in compression is not a solution to the problem. What
> might the 25# gain reflect?
>
> I think the increase is just not enough yet for it to work right. Could be
> the rings are free but the cylinder wall is damaged. That begs the question:
> if this is as good as it gets, is it good enough for your purposes? The
> student stick driver may bias the answer toward "yes."
>
> 3. Any ideas on how to communicate the idea of "smooth shifting" to a
> 20 yo college student??
>
> In the "Luann" comic strip Toni explained the proper clutch release to Luann
> as "like pulling on stockings." ;-) Perhaps putting a partly full bowl of
> water in his lap?
>
> Peace!
> Jack

BTW, I got it up to 110 last night and it sounded pretty good.
Smooth, no hard shake anymore. Something's getting better. Also the
6 beeps that indicate something is wrong with the EGR valve have
stopped coming on and the PGM FI light has stopped coming on. Those
were initial constants.