jim beam

On 12/11/2009 05:43 AM, Tegger wrote:
> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>
>>
>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>
>
>
> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with another
> replacment Honda part.
>
> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be able to
> find the previous repair in their system.
>
>
>
>> If so, I might
>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are now
>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>
>
>
> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket exhaust
> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to
> risk it.
>
> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>
> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available for my
> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were also
> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with Walker
> parts.
>
> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath before going
> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The hanger
> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that were
> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>
> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe (no
> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now straight.
> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that by the
> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were dead-center.
>
> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger flange
> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to the
> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>
>

dude, on the one hand, you're casting pearls before swine. he wants to
use after-market, and clearly, nothing you say is going to convince him.
[here's the "unteachable" signal: he's prepared to fudge his numbers
to create "savings".]

otoh, he's pissing in the knowledge pool with this "just as good as oem"
bs, so it's good to point that out. just like you say, oem spec is
different and more stringent. there are some exceptions to this, but
for honda, exhaust systems is not one of them.

to anyone else reading, if you're driving detroit garbage, many times
after-market /is/ superior to oem - buy aftermarket and enjoy. but this
is not true for honda because honda oem standards are so high. honda
oem is guaranteed to work and be reliable. with anything else, you're
taking needless chances for trivial [if any] "savings", and if you don't
have all the facts about an after-market part available to you, you're
simply letting hope triumph over the logic and experience of others who
know what you don't.

jim beam

On 12/11/2009 03:29 PM, JRE wrote:
> Peabody wrote:
>> JRE says...
>>
>> > However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an
>> > Accord), I have seen _no_ significant difference in
>> > lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and Honda parts.
>>
>> JRE, did you do the installations yourself? I'm willing to
>> take a chance on the quality of the Bosal muffler
>> and install it myself (saving about $150 in the process),
>> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
>> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>> hanger in front of the muffler looks like it might be
>> particularly difficult to get to.
>
> Yes. I pay for car repairs only when I don't think any new tools I might
> need will ever pay me back. Alignments, tire-busting, machine work, and
> recently a rear wheel bearing replacement on a BMW E46 (new
> tools-$1,000!; repair-$300). Very little else, ever. If you buy decent
> tools and don't lose them, it doesn't take too many jobs to build a set
> that will serve for most jobs without having to acquire many (or any)
> new tools.
>
> You will find things much easier with a real floor jack. More
> importantly, though, you need jack stands. They are not optional. NEVER,
> EVER get under a car supported only by a jack. For years, there was a
> newspaper article on my garage wall with the headline, "Car falls off
> jack, killing town man" that I would point to when a friend thought he
> should crawl under a car without setting jack stands. It was a real
> convincer. Cars are heavy and you are fragile. If one falls on you, you
> will be severely injured at best. Do NOT screw around here. The $150 you
> save is not worth risking your life--and it's a sizable fraction of the
> cost of a decent jack and pair of jack stands.

i second that story. my dad was working under a car like that, on a
sloping gravel drive one time. lucky for him i just happened to pull
into the drive way to see the car roll off the stand and fall on him.
it broke a bunch of ribs [ever heard ribs pop?] and he was out of action
for weeks. if i hadn't shown up when i did, he probably wouldn't be
alive because no one else was scheduled to be home for hours and he'd
have been pinned there unable to breathe.

ALWAYS use a proper jack, with stands, on hard level ground. and ALWAYS
chock the wheels.

>
> For exhaust system work, ramps are cheaper and just as safe. They are
> somewhat easier to use as long as they slope gradually enough to avoid
> catching the front bumper cover on them when you back off. However, they
> can't be used to remove a wheel and are less versatile in general.
>
>>
>> Is the precedure to mount the muffler on the hangers first
>> and then do the gasket and flange bolts, or the other way
>> around?
>>
>
> You will avoid undue stress on the remaining flanges if you unbolt
> things first, and then take off the hangars. Don't forget to get new
> gaskets with the new pipe. Have spare nuts and bolts or studs on hand in
> the right sizes. A propane (or better, acetylene) torch is a big help
> for stubborn nuts. Frozen ones are easy to remove when red hot, and if
> you have to drive out a stud it is much easier if the flange is heated
> until it goes clear.
>

heat works. however, there is risk of burning the underside of the car
unless you use a flame board. i've found impact drivers to be awesome
removing otherwise frozen rusted exhaust nuts in this situation.
absolutely awesome. no heat, no collateral damage, and otherwise
unshiftable nuts zip right off.

Joe

On 2009-12-11, Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Seth says...
>
> >> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> >> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>
> > Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> > with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> > changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> > get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> > piece of garbage is very dangerous.
>
> Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
> the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
> stones under the tires, and lower the car onto them, with
> the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
> inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
> able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
> just don't know if that's enough room to work with.
>

Not to be too critical, but proper jack stands are fairly cheap at any
auto parts store or harbor freight. They are a MUCH better idea than
concrete blocks.

And if you plan on doing work on your car more than just a couple of
times, it couldn't hurt to spend $100-$150 on a decent hydraulic floor
jack...


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Stewart

"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>
>>
>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>
>
>
> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with
> another
> replacment Honda part.

Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if they
do so for OEM replacements?

>
> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be
> able to
> find the previous repair in their system.
>
>
>
>> If so, I might
>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>> now
>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>
>
>
> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket
> exhaust
> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
> want to
> risk it.
>
> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>
> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
> for my
> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were
> also
> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with
> Walker
> parts.
>
> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
> before going
> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
> hanger
> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that
> were
> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>
> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe
> (no
> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
> straight.
> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that
> by the
> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
> dead-center.
>
> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
> flange
> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to
> the
> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

jim beam

On 12/13/2009 06:06 PM, Stewart wrote:
> "Tegger"<invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
>> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
>> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with
>> another
>> replacment Honda part.
>
> Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if they
> do so for OEM replacements?

er, dunno. why don' t they give the car an unconditional, unlimited
"forever" satisfaction "we'll refund you in full" guarantee? do you
think "money" might be involved?



>
>>
>> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be
>> able to
>> find the previous repair in their system.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If so, I might
>>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>>> now
>>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>>
>>
>>
>> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket
>> exhaust
>> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
>> want to
>> risk it.
>>
>> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>>
>> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
>> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
>> for my
>> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were
>> also
>> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with
>> Walker
>> parts.
>>
>> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
>> before going
>> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
>> hanger
>> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
>> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that
>> were
>> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>>
>> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe
>> (no
>> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
>> straight.
>> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that
>> by the
>> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
>> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
>> dead-center.
>>
>> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
>> flange
>> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to
>> the
>> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
>
>
>

Leftie

jim beam wrote:
> On 12/13/2009 06:06 PM, Stewart wrote:
>> "Tegger"<invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9CDE58C5DB75Btegger@208.90.168.18...
>>> JRE<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
>>> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>>>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with
>>> another
>>> replacment Honda part.
>>
>> Why don't they lifetime warranty the parts when the car is new if they
>> do so for OEM replacements?
>
> er, dunno. why don' t they give the car an unconditional, unlimited
> "forever" satisfaction "we'll refund you in full" guarantee? do you
> think "money" might be involved?
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be
>>> able to
>>> find the previous repair in their system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If so, I might
>>>> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are
>>>> now
>>>> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket
>>> exhaust
>>> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't
>>> want to
>>> risk it.
>>>
>>> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>>>
>>> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
>>> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available
>>> for my
>>> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were
>>> also
>>> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with
>>> Walker
>>> parts.
>>>
>>> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath
>>> before going
>>> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The
>>> hanger
>>> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
>>> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that
>>> were
>>> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>>>
>>> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe
>>> (no
>>> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now
>>> straight.
>>> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that
>>> by the
>>> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
>>> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were
>>> dead-center.
>>>
>>> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger
>>> flange
>>> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to
>>> the
>>> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tegger
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but when I got a Honda
Lifetime Warranty muffler for my old Civic Si, and then wore *it* out,
the free replacement was much cheaper and didn't have much of a warranty.

Tegger

Leftie <No@Thanks.net> wrote in news:9PnVm.64638$X01.38059@newsfe07.iad:


>>
>
> I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but when I got a Honda
> Lifetime Warranty muffler for my old Civic Si, and then wore *it* out,
> the free replacement was much cheaper and didn't have much of a warranty.
>



Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of replacement OEM
Honda mufflers. Both of those were absolutely free to me, and the next one
will be as well.

Are you sure the replacement you got was actually OEM? Did it is have a
Honda part number? Don't put it past the dealership to try to sell you an
aftermarket one instead of OEM.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Peabody

Tegger says...

> Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.

Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
muffler replaced "professionally."

But I want to be sure I understand what the guarantee is on
a Honda muffler.

If I have the dealer do the work, the price I was quoted was
$364 plus tax, which is $219 for the muffler and $145 labor.
And at least verbally they confirmed that would be a full
lifetime warranty, parts and labor. I assume that would be
in writing at some point.

If I have the Four Star Honda/Accura local repair shop do
it, the price will be about $275 total. They confirmed
they will get a Honda muffler from the dealer, and they say
it's a lifetime warranty, but the guy I talked to said he
thought it was just the part, not labor. But he's going to
check on that. It makes sense, though, since you wouldn't
expect Honda to reimburse a local repair shop for labor.

But other scenarios arise if Four Star does this work.
Would a dealer honor at least the part warranty, so if I
move to another city I would at least have something to fall
back on? Is there a chance the dealer would cover labor on
the future replacement too even though a non-dealer did the
original installation?

It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
stands to help me.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
not to be able to do this myself.

Greg

Peabody wrote:

>
> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
> stands to help me.
>
> Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
> working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
> not to be able to do this myself.

You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.

Tegger

Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:00a23678$0$17146
$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

> Tegger says...
>
> > Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> > replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> > absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.
>
> Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
> and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
> muffler replaced "professionally."
>
> But I want to be sure I understand what the guarantee is on
> a Honda muffler.
>
> If I have the dealer do the work, the price I was quoted was
> $364 plus tax, which is $219 for the muffler and $145 labor.
> And at least verbally they confirmed that would be a full
> lifetime warranty, parts and labor. I assume that would be
> in writing at some point.



It should be on the invoice. In any case, it's SOP for any dealership,
so you shouldn't have a problem

IMPORTANT!
Keep that invoice in the glove box or some other safe place and save
your self a fight in four to seven years.
If you're not a regular at the dealership, you'll likely fall off their
easily-accessible customer list after a few years and they'll have
trouble finding the record of installation if you don't have the
invoice.



>
> If I have the Four Star Honda/Accura local repair shop do
> it, the price will be about $275 total. They confirmed
> they will get a Honda muffler from the dealer, and they say
> it's a lifetime warranty, but the guy I talked to said he
> thought it was just the part, not labor. But he's going to
> check on that. It makes sense, though, since you wouldn't
> expect Honda to reimburse a local repair shop for labor.
>
> But other scenarios arise if Four Star does this work.
> Would a dealer honor at least the part warranty, so if I
> move to another city I would at least have something to fall
> back on? Is there a chance the dealer would cover labor on
> the future replacement too even though a non-dealer did the
> original installation?



That's a **VERY** good question. I don't know if the repair is dealer-
specific or general to any repair shop.

You had better make sure you get this clarified at the dealership,
preferably in writing.

But when you consider the amortization of that extra $89 over four years
(that's a bare-minimum), that's $1.85 a month, or $22 per year. If you
get seven years out of the muffler, then the added cost falls to $1.05
per month, or $12 per year.

If it were me, I'd bite the bullet and get the dealer to do it. It's
safest that way, and you'll end up with OEM fasteners and gasket.



>
> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
> stands to help me.



It's like anything else. If you have to tools you can do the job. If you
don't, you can't. Or it's a LOT harder. A kitchen cabinet is just a few
flat pieces of wood and a few screws, right?



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

Greg <nospam@null.net> wrote in news:6gwVm.43068$kY2.22438@newsfe01.iad:


>
> You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
> boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
> your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
> change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.



This advice is so astonishingly bad I'm left wondering if "Greg" is a
troll.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

JRE

Peabody wrote:
> Tegger says...
>
> > Weird. I've had at least two "warranty" replacements of
> > replacement OEM Honda mufflers. Both of those were
> > absolutely free to me, and the next one will be as well.
>
> Well, I've been unable to find a friend with a floor jack
> and jack stands, so it looks like I'll be getting the
> muffler replaced "professionally."

First, rest assured that you made the right decision. You can always
make more money to pay for repairs when you're alive and well.

<snip>
>
> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
> stands to help me.

Where do you live? The BMWCCA hooks up members with each other for
stuff like this. Maybe there's a Honda equivalent.

> Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
> working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
> not to be able to do this myself.

I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I actually
paid for a car repair, but the tools required would probably never pay
me back and the repair was far cheaper than the tools (25-30% of the
cost of the tools, in fact).

--
JRE

Tegger

JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in news:hg6p62$ac2$1@news.eternal-
september.org:


>
> I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I actually
> paid for a car repair, but the tools required would probably never pay
> me back and the repair was far cheaper than the tools (25-30% of the
> cost of the tools, in fact).
>


I think it depends on how dedicated you are to the idea of doing your own
repairs.

I see my tool purchases as investments for the future. The amount of money
I save in doing my own work means I have lots of cash available to allocate
towards new tools.

Plus -- and I must be crazy -- I actually LIKE working on my car, even when
what I'm doing is something scarily new to me and which at first appears to
go horribly wrong until I eventually figure it out, after which there's an
elation that beats chemical intoxication...

If you don't see yourself doing lots of your own work past, say, light bulb
changes, just get the pro's to fix your car. Nothing wrong with that at
all. I don't do my own roofing or windows; I pay pro's to do that.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

E. Meyer

On 12/14/09 1:22 PM, in article 6gwVm.43068$kY2.22438@newsfe01.iad, "Greg"
<nospam@null.net> wrote:

> Peabody wrote:
>
>>
>> It's just a shame I can't do this myself. I mean, it's two
>> bolts and three hangers. Just a real shame. Maybe I need
>> to advertise on Craiglist for a guy with jacks and jack
>> stands to help me.
>>
>> Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and warnings about
>> working under the car safely. It just kills me another way
>> not to be able to do this myself.
>
> You already have a jack; the one in your trunk. Find some bricks, 2x6
> boards, etc. Now invest in some ramps for the front end. You'll get
> your $ back, and then some instantly. Assuming you're paying someone to
> change the oil, etc., the savings will continue forever.

Well, those first two sentences are just plain scary. The ramps are a
useful idea though.

JRE

Tegger wrote:
> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in news:hg6p62$ac2$1@news.eternal-
> september.org:
>
>
>> I understand completely. I felt the same way last week when I actually
>> paid for a car repair, but the tools required would probably never pay
>> me back and the repair was far cheaper than the tools (25-30% of the
>> cost of the tools, in fact).
>>
> I think it depends on how dedicated you are to the idea of doing your own
> repairs.
>
> I see my tool purchases as investments for the future. The amount of money
> I save in doing my own work means I have lots of cash available to allocate
> towards new tools.

I have always done this on a dollar basis. My payback period on tools
used to be 10 years. Lately, I've been oscillating between 5 and 10
years. The repair I just paid for was the first non-warranty mechanical
repair I did not do myself in a very, very long time. My guess, though
it's impossible to predict, is that the tools would not have paid me
back in well over 10 years. I'm fast approaching the age where the
window of utility is getting perceptibly shorter, and a 20-year payback
probably makes little sense. And I didn't know anyone I could borrow
them from, either.

Do you own a tire machine and spin balancer? A full-size hydraulic
lift? A 4-wheel alignment rack? A valve refacer? A cylinder head
resurfacer? A crankshaft grinder? A frame machine? A paint booth for
clearcoat? Outside the businesses that can afford them, I suspect not,
and I further suspect we're talking about *where* we each choose to draw
the line, not *whether* we choose to draw the line. Were I a
billionaire, I'd have a really cool garage, just for fun, but...

> Plus -- and I must be crazy -- I actually LIKE working on my car, even when
> what I'm doing is something scarily new to me and which at first appears to
> go horribly wrong until I eventually figure it out, after which there's an
> elation that beats chemical intoxication...

Yup. Same here.

>
> If you don't see yourself doing lots of your own work past, say, light bulb
> changes, just get the pro's to fix your car. Nothing wrong with that at
> all. I don't do my own roofing or windows; I pay pro's to do that.

Oddly enough, I do my own roofing and most interior renovation work, but
draw the line at windows. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to.

--
JRE