Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> Right hand thread.
>>>
>>> The crankshaft pulley bolt is typically extremely tight.
>>>
>> We never did do a test to determine whether the bolt is
>> actually
>> tightening over time or whether the bond is just
>> strengthening, did
>> we? All everybody agrees on is that it is a devil to get
>> loose, at
>> least for the first timing belt change.
>>
>
>
>
> I had an email conversation I had with an engineer at
> www.boltscience.com .
>
> He said the bolt is not rotating. Period.

Be fair. You shared the message with me. He said it was
unlikely, or words to that effect. That's his opinion.

He also did not offer any particularly compelling
alternative explanation.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> Right hand thread.
>>>
>>> The crankshaft pulley bolt is typically extremely tight.
>>>
>> We never did do a test to determine whether the bolt is
>> actually
>> tightening over time or whether the bond is just
>> strengthening, did
>> we? All everybody agrees on is that it is a devil to get
>> loose, at
>> least for the first timing belt change.
>>
>
>
>
> I had an email conversation I had with an engineer at
> www.boltscience.com .
>
> He said the bolt is not rotating. Period.

Be fair. You shared the message with me. He said it was
unlikely, or words to that effect. That's his opinion.

He also did not offer any particularly compelling
alternative explanation.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>> Right hand thread.
>>>
>>> The crankshaft pulley bolt is typically extremely tight.
>>>
>> We never did do a test to determine whether the bolt is
>> actually
>> tightening over time or whether the bond is just
>> strengthening, did
>> we? All everybody agrees on is that it is a devil to get
>> loose, at
>> least for the first timing belt change.
>>
>
>
>
> I had an email conversation I had with an engineer at
> www.boltscience.com .
>
> He said the bolt is not rotating. Period.

Be fair. You shared the message with me. He said it was
unlikely, or words to that effect. That's his opinion.

He also did not offer any particularly compelling
alternative explanation.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.

That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.

That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.

That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.

That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >
> > you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> > they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> > need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> > and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Only the pully does I believe.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >
> > you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> > they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> > need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> > and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Only the pully does I believe.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >
> > you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> > they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> > need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> > and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Only the pully does I believe.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >
> > you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
> > they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
> > need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
> > and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

Only the pully does I believe.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
>>they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
>>need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
>>and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in

yes and no. yes, it's a different physical arrangement, but it's not
the bearing friction that works the thread in [a remarkably wide
misunderstanding!] - the rotation direction is incorrect. check it out
yourself. it's precession - just like the rotation of gears in a
planetary gearbox.

> - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

correct, it's not directly equivalent, but there /is/ a tightening
impulse from the momentum difference between an ignition stroke and the
inertia of the pulley. saying that bolts don't tighten is incorrect and
i used the above example as an easily tested home illustration. once we
can agree on examples of where tightening /can/ occur, hopefully we can
move on to examine the facts of exactly how it happens. just saying "it
doesn't happen" when there's clear evidence to the contrary, makes no sense.

interestingly, the later versions of the honda pulley/crank have both
splines [in addition to the woodruff] /and/ loctite as oem, unlike the
older series motors that end up being discussed here. they still take
torque to remove because of the loctite, but they do /not/ evidence the
galling and the amount of torque to move is substantially less. i
posted pics of all this back in the day. i can repost if required. it
appears that the splines help reduce the amount of lash, and if there's
no lash [in conjunction with the loctite], the bolt can't move hence
it's now easier to unscrew.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
>>they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
>>need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
>>and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in

yes and no. yes, it's a different physical arrangement, but it's not
the bearing friction that works the thread in [a remarkably wide
misunderstanding!] - the rotation direction is incorrect. check it out
yourself. it's precession - just like the rotation of gears in a
planetary gearbox.

> - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

correct, it's not directly equivalent, but there /is/ a tightening
impulse from the momentum difference between an ignition stroke and the
inertia of the pulley. saying that bolts don't tighten is incorrect and
i used the above example as an easily tested home illustration. once we
can agree on examples of where tightening /can/ occur, hopefully we can
move on to examine the facts of exactly how it happens. just saying "it
doesn't happen" when there's clear evidence to the contrary, makes no sense.

interestingly, the later versions of the honda pulley/crank have both
splines [in addition to the woodruff] /and/ loctite as oem, unlike the
older series motors that end up being discussed here. they still take
torque to remove because of the loctite, but they do /not/ evidence the
galling and the amount of torque to move is substantially less. i
posted pics of all this back in the day. i can repost if required. it
appears that the splines help reduce the amount of lash, and if there's
no lash [in conjunction with the loctite], the bolt can't move hence
it's now easier to unscrew.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
>>they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
>>need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
>>and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in

yes and no. yes, it's a different physical arrangement, but it's not
the bearing friction that works the thread in [a remarkably wide
misunderstanding!] - the rotation direction is incorrect. check it out
yourself. it's precession - just like the rotation of gears in a
planetary gearbox.

> - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

correct, it's not directly equivalent, but there /is/ a tightening
impulse from the momentum difference between an ignition stroke and the
inertia of the pulley. saying that bolts don't tighten is incorrect and
i used the above example as an easily tested home illustration. once we
can agree on examples of where tightening /can/ occur, hopefully we can
move on to examine the facts of exactly how it happens. just saying "it
doesn't happen" when there's clear evidence to the contrary, makes no sense.

interestingly, the later versions of the honda pulley/crank have both
splines [in addition to the woodruff] /and/ loctite as oem, unlike the
older series motors that end up being discussed here. they still take
torque to remove because of the loctite, but they do /not/ evidence the
galling and the amount of torque to move is substantially less. i
posted pics of all this back in the day. i can repost if required. it
appears that the splines help reduce the amount of lash, and if there's
no lash [in conjunction with the loctite], the bolt can't move hence
it's now easier to unscrew.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:f-adnZ-O0NVJKSzZnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>>you can do this experiment at home: loosen the pedals on a bike so
>>they're only finger tight. now, pedal around the block. you'll find you
>>need a wrench to get them undone again. that's precession that tightens.
>>and it's why left hand pedals have a left hand thread.
>
>
> That's a very different physical arrangement, though. The friction of the
> bearings, small as it may be, works to screw the pedals in

yes and no. yes, it's a different physical arrangement, but it's not
the bearing friction that works the thread in [a remarkably wide
misunderstanding!] - the rotation direction is incorrect. check it out
yourself. it's precession - just like the rotation of gears in a
planetary gearbox.

> - as you point
> out, that's why the left hand thread on left side pedals. There is no
> equivalent force on the crank bolt.

correct, it's not directly equivalent, but there /is/ a tightening
impulse from the momentum difference between an ignition stroke and the
inertia of the pulley. saying that bolts don't tighten is incorrect and
i used the above example as an easily tested home illustration. once we
can agree on examples of where tightening /can/ occur, hopefully we can
move on to examine the facts of exactly how it happens. just saying "it
doesn't happen" when there's clear evidence to the contrary, makes no sense.

interestingly, the later versions of the honda pulley/crank have both
splines [in addition to the woodruff] /and/ loctite as oem, unlike the
older series motors that end up being discussed here. they still take
torque to remove because of the loctite, but they do /not/ evidence the
galling and the amount of torque to move is substantially less. i
posted pics of all this back in the day. i can repost if required. it
appears that the splines help reduce the amount of lash, and if there's
no lash [in conjunction with the loctite], the bolt can't move hence
it's now easier to unscrew.