Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote

> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also. Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved.

Your Volvo has a rock stiff engine mount. We have an 82 Volvo
and it still runs but drives like a tank.

>When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>
> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
> > of nail polish.
>
> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
> might try this then.
>
> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
> tightening and loosening by hand.
>
> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
> > process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
> > supports that theory.
>
> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)

I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
(83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote

> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also. Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved.

Your Volvo has a rock stiff engine mount. We have an 82 Volvo
and it still runs but drives like a tank.

>When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>
> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
> > of nail polish.
>
> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
> might try this then.
>
> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
> tightening and loosening by hand.
>
> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
> > process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
> > supports that theory.
>
> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)

I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
(83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote

> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also. Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved.

Your Volvo has a rock stiff engine mount. We have an 82 Volvo
and it still runs but drives like a tank.

>When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>
> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
> > of nail polish.
>
> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
> might try this then.
>
> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
> tightening and loosening by hand.
>
> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
> > process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
> > supports that theory.
>
> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)

I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
(83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:kIudnbjwvu7NjC7ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>1. there is angular galling under the bolt head. that's hard evidence of
>>some rotation.
>>2. the rotation direction on the crank is such that the bolt would tighten
>>against a "stationary" pulley wheel.
>>3. the apparent pulley bolt torque increases from ~120 ft.lbs to
>>~300ft.lbs in ~30 miles.
>>
>>i also know from other research that bolts can tighten. now, the dots on
>>this may not all be joined, but an outline appears to be there.
>>
>
> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also.

interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

> Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved. When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:kIudnbjwvu7NjC7ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>1. there is angular galling under the bolt head. that's hard evidence of
>>some rotation.
>>2. the rotation direction on the crank is such that the bolt would tighten
>>against a "stationary" pulley wheel.
>>3. the apparent pulley bolt torque increases from ~120 ft.lbs to
>>~300ft.lbs in ~30 miles.
>>
>>i also know from other research that bolts can tighten. now, the dots on
>>this may not all be joined, but an outline appears to be there.
>>
>
> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also.

interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

> Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved. When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:kIudnbjwvu7NjC7ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>1. there is angular galling under the bolt head. that's hard evidence of
>>some rotation.
>>2. the rotation direction on the crank is such that the bolt would tighten
>>against a "stationary" pulley wheel.
>>3. the apparent pulley bolt torque increases from ~120 ft.lbs to
>>~300ft.lbs in ~30 miles.
>>
>>i also know from other research that bolts can tighten. now, the dots on
>>this may not all be joined, but an outline appears to be there.
>>
>
> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also.

interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

> Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved. When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:kIudnbjwvu7NjC7ZnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>1. there is angular galling under the bolt head. that's hard evidence of
>>some rotation.
>>2. the rotation direction on the crank is such that the bolt would tighten
>>against a "stationary" pulley wheel.
>>3. the apparent pulley bolt torque increases from ~120 ft.lbs to
>>~300ft.lbs in ~30 miles.
>>
>>i also know from other research that bolts can tighten. now, the dots on
>>this may not all be joined, but an outline appears to be there.
>>
>
> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
> rotating engines, also.

interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

> Our Volvo took much more than the spec'd 190 ft-lbs
> the first time I changed the timing belt. I had a floor jack under the 9
> inch socket handle and the tires had started to come up off the ground
> before the bolt moved. When the harmonic balancer failed a few months later
> it took much less. With the second timing belt change it was back to its
> wicked ways.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Burt wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>>
>>>I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
>>>to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
>>>of nail polish.
>>
>>Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
>>might try this then.
>>
>>I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>>tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>>
>>>All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>>>process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
>>>have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>>>tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>>>supports that theory.
>>
>>I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Burt wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>>
>>>I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
>>>to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
>>>of nail polish.
>>
>>Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
>>might try this then.
>>
>>I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>>tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>>
>>>All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>>>process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
>>>have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>>>tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>>>supports that theory.
>>
>>I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Burt wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>>
>>>I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
>>>to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
>>>of nail polish.
>>
>>Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
>>might try this then.
>>
>>I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>>tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>>
>>>All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>>>process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
>>>have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>>>tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>>>supports that theory.
>>
>>I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Burt wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>>
>>>I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail polish
>>>to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh out
>>>of nail polish.
>>
>>Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer and
>>might try this then.
>>
>>I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>>tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>>
>>>All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>>>process that makes the break-away torque so high. People
>>>have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>>>tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>>>supports that theory.
>>
>>I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.) Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical means.

possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail
>> > polish
>> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh
>> > out
>> > of nail polish.
>>
>> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer
>> and
>> might try this then.
>>
>> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>> tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>> > process that makes the break-away torque so high.
>> > People
>> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>> > supports that theory.
>>
>> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the
> bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.)

What model is this?

I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
but some have a 2.9L engine?

Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
we're on the same page.

> Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that
> the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical
> means.
>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
of how much torque was needed?

Thank you for doing this.