Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail
>> > polish
>> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh
>> > out
>> > of nail polish.
>>
>> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer
>> and
>> might try this then.
>>
>> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>> tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>> > process that makes the break-away torque so high.
>> > People
>> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>> > supports that theory.
>>
>> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the
> bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.)

What model is this?

I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
but some have a 2.9L engine?

Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
we're on the same page.

> Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that
> the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical
> means.
>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
of how much torque was needed?

Thank you for doing this.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail
>> > polish
>> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh
>> > out
>> > of nail polish.
>>
>> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer
>> and
>> might try this then.
>>
>> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>> tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>> > process that makes the break-away torque so high.
>> > People
>> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>> > supports that theory.
>>
>> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the
> bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.)

What model is this?

I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
but some have a 2.9L engine?

Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
we're on the same page.

> Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that
> the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical
> means.
>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
of how much torque was needed?

Thank you for doing this.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>>
>> > I just recalled that you suggested a spot of nail
>> > polish
>> > to match-mark the bolt head and pulley, and I'm fresh
>> > out
>> > of nail polish.
>>
>> Oh right you are. I do a timing belt change next summer
>> and
>> might try this then.
>>
>> I figure that bolt is good for only so many cycles of
>> tightening and loosening by hand.
>>
>> > All that aside, I agree that it is probably a cold-weld
>> > process that makes the break-away torque so high.
>> > People
>> > have also reported that working both in the loosen and
>> > tighten directions with an impact gun helps, which
>> > supports that theory.
>>
>> I'll think about that. Seems reasonable enough. :-)
>
> I made a post back in Nov 2005 and said that I'd mark the
> bolt
> (83-lbft on a 2.0L.)

What model is this?

I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
but some have a 2.9L engine?

Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
we're on the same page.

> Lo and Behold! Today I went to check and
> the bolt hasn't moved. I'm more inclined to believe that
> the
> tightening is from a cold weld or by other mechanical
> means.
>
> The markings I made are from a razor sharp carbon punch.
> I believe the car was driven some 7-8 thousand miles.

Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
of how much torque was needed?

Thank you for doing this.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>> rotating engines, also.
>
> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
> balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
> like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
> without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>
The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
rubber eventually shears....

For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
harmonic damper... not sure which term is official - while the very similar
B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>> rotating engines, also.
>
> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
> balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
> like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
> without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>
The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
rubber eventually shears....

For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
harmonic damper... not sure which term is official - while the very similar
B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>> rotating engines, also.
>
> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
> balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
> like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
> without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>
The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
rubber eventually shears....

For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
harmonic damper... not sure which term is official - while the very similar
B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>> rotating engines, also.
>
> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
> balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
> like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
> without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>
The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
rubber eventually shears....

For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
harmonic damper... not sure which term is official - while the very similar
B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.

Mike

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>>>rotating engines, also.
>>
>>interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
>>"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
>>which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
>>balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
>>like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
>>without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>>
>
> The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
> occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
> picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
> running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
> rubber eventually shears....

it does indeed!

>
> For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
> harmonic damper...

which is even more interesting. it definitely will damp the rotational
inertia spikes that will transient between the crank and those rotating
masses the pulley drives.

> not sure which term is official - while the very similar
> B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>>>rotating engines, also.
>>
>>interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
>>"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
>>which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
>>balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
>>like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
>>without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>>
>
> The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
> occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
> picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
> running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
> rubber eventually shears....

it does indeed!

>
> For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
> harmonic damper...

which is even more interesting. it definitely will damp the rotational
inertia spikes that will transient between the crank and those rotating
masses the pulley drives.

> not sure which term is official - while the very similar
> B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>>>rotating engines, also.
>>
>>interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
>>"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
>>which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
>>balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
>>like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
>>without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>>
>
> The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
> occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
> picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
> running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
> rubber eventually shears....

it does indeed!

>
> For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
> harmonic damper...

which is even more interesting. it definitely will damp the rotational
inertia spikes that will transient between the crank and those rotating
masses the pulley drives.

> not sure which term is official - while the very similar
> B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:Y8adnQIrtNAvbynZnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>>>I have experienced the tightness with age in other cars with clockwise
>>>rotating engines, also.
>>
>>interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
>>"harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
>>which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for a
>>balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low mass
>>like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run successfully
>>without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.
>>
>
> The purpose is to transfer US $100+ from my pocket to Volvo's coffers
> occasionally (the first lasted about 150K miles). For those trying to
> picture this device, imagine your crank pulley with a strip of rubber
> running the circumference and bonding the pulley part to the core. The
> rubber eventually shears....

it does indeed!

>
> For whatever reason, the B230 engine has a harmonic balancer - also called a
> harmonic damper...

which is even more interesting. it definitely will damp the rotational
inertia spikes that will transient between the crank and those rotating
masses the pulley drives.

> not sure which term is official - while the very similar
> B23 engine has a conventional pulley. Hmm.
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
> being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

The galling was probably caused by the lack of a vibration damper.
At best guess, the 92 Accord's balancer shaft may have helped. This
and the high bolt torque, 160-lbft, may explain why the galling isn't
present on the post-92 Accords, which I've also witnessed myself.

> is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

88 Accord...no spline.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
> a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
> mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
> successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

Successful? What about the galling on the crank bolt head you've
talked about. That could've been caused by the torque pulsation of the
vibrating engine.

Take for instance, when ever I do a brake lathe without the vibration
damper on the brake disc there is a wave effect on the surface. On
the crankshaft, these wave (oscillating) effects can transfer eat up the
transmission gears or various parts.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
> What model is this?

88 Accord, around 286k miles.

> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>
> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
> we're on the same page.
>
> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
> of how much torque was needed?

Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the 92 Accord
engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about 150-lbft
and pretty exhausted.

Tell you what, tommorow I will:

1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist horizontally
and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.
2. Do the same to my other 92 Accord.
3. Both cars will be torque and loosen and chart the difference.
4. Both cars will be marked before loosening.

There is a problem with #1. My beam torque wrench only goes
to 150 ft-lb, which is design for head work only. I have a clicker
type rated at 200-lbft, but this is inconvenient. Other than this,
what would be another practical way to measure the loosening torque?

> Thank you for doing this.

Your welcome.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
> being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

The galling was probably caused by the lack of a vibration damper.
At best guess, the 92 Accord's balancer shaft may have helped. This
and the high bolt torque, 160-lbft, may explain why the galling isn't
present on the post-92 Accords, which I've also witnessed myself.

> is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

88 Accord...no spline.