Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
> a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
> mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
> successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

Successful? What about the galling on the crank bolt head you've
talked about. That could've been caused by the torque pulsation of the
vibrating engine.

Take for instance, when ever I do a brake lathe without the vibration
damper on the brake disc there is a wave effect on the surface. On
the crankshaft, these wave (oscillating) effects can transfer eat up the
transmission gears or various parts.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
> What model is this?

88 Accord, around 286k miles.

> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>
> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
> we're on the same page.
>
> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
> of how much torque was needed?

Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the 92 Accord
engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about 150-lbft
and pretty exhausted.

Tell you what, tommorow I will:

1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist horizontally
and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.
2. Do the same to my other 92 Accord.
3. Both cars will be torque and loosen and chart the difference.
4. Both cars will be marked before loosening.

There is a problem with #1. My beam torque wrench only goes
to 150 ft-lb, which is design for head work only. I have a clicker
type rated at 200-lbft, but this is inconvenient. Other than this,
what would be another practical way to measure the loosening torque?

> Thank you for doing this.

Your welcome.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
> being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

The galling was probably caused by the lack of a vibration damper.
At best guess, the 92 Accord's balancer shaft may have helped. This
and the high bolt torque, 160-lbft, may explain why the galling isn't
present on the post-92 Accords, which I've also witnessed myself.

> is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

88 Accord...no spline.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
> a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
> mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
> successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

Successful? What about the galling on the crank bolt head you've
talked about. That could've been caused by the torque pulsation of the
vibrating engine.

Take for instance, when ever I do a brake lathe without the vibration
damper on the brake disc there is a wave effect on the surface. On
the crankshaft, these wave (oscillating) effects can transfer eat up the
transmission gears or various parts.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
> What model is this?

88 Accord, around 286k miles.

> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>
> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
> we're on the same page.
>
> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
> of how much torque was needed?

Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the 92 Accord
engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about 150-lbft
and pretty exhausted.

Tell you what, tommorow I will:

1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist horizontally
and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.
2. Do the same to my other 92 Accord.
3. Both cars will be torque and loosen and chart the difference.
4. Both cars will be marked before loosening.

There is a problem with #1. My beam torque wrench only goes
to 150 ft-lb, which is design for head work only. I have a clicker
type rated at 200-lbft, but this is inconvenient. Other than this,
what would be another practical way to measure the loosening torque?

> Thank you for doing this.

Your welcome.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> possible, but that doesn't explain the discrepancy between the galling
> being present on the pre-92 vehicles and there being none on the later ones.

The galling was probably caused by the lack of a vibration damper.
At best guess, the 92 Accord's balancer shaft may have helped. This
and the high bolt torque, 160-lbft, may explain why the galling isn't
present on the post-92 Accords, which I've also witnessed myself.

> is the pulley wheel splined? you don't state the vehicle's age.

88 Accord...no spline.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote

> interesting. do you have any thoughts on the fact that it has an
> "harmonic balancer" also? they do a lot to reduce rotational inertia
> which might tighten a bolt in one direction, but loosen in another. for
> a balanced crank and flywheel, there's really isn't a lot something low
> mass like this can achieve vibrationally. besides, hondas run
> successfully without them, so i wonder about its actual purpose.

Successful? What about the galling on the crank bolt head you've
talked about. That could've been caused by the torque pulsation of the
vibrating engine.

Take for instance, when ever I do a brake lathe without the vibration
damper on the brake disc there is a wave effect on the surface. On
the crankshaft, these wave (oscillating) effects can transfer eat up the
transmission gears or various parts.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>
> What model is this?

88 Accord, around 286k miles.

> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt spec,
> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>
> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
> we're on the same page.
>
> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any estimate
> of how much torque was needed?

Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the 92 Accord
engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about 150-lbft
and pretty exhausted.

Tell you what, tommorow I will:

1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist horizontally
and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.
2. Do the same to my other 92 Accord.
3. Both cars will be torque and loosen and chart the difference.
4. Both cars will be marked before loosening.

There is a problem with #1. My beam torque wrench only goes
to 150 ft-lb, which is design for head work only. I have a clicker
type rated at 200-lbft, but this is inconvenient. Other than this,
what would be another practical way to measure the loosening torque?

> Thank you for doing this.

Your welcome.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:wXntg.130284$dW3.57154@newssvr21.news.prodigy .com...
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>
>> What model is this?
>
> 88 Accord, around 286k miles.
>
>> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt
>> spec,
>> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>>
>> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
>> we're on the same page.
>>
>> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any
>> estimate
>> of how much torque was needed?
>
> Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the
> 92 Accord
> engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about
> 150-lbft
> and pretty exhausted.

:-)

That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
you may have heard.

I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
very first time I freed it.

> Tell you what, tommorow I will:
>
> 1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist
> horizontally
> and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
anything new. We all already know that after several years
and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
was last freed.

There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.

It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
temperature variations.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:wXntg.130284$dW3.57154@newssvr21.news.prodigy .com...
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>
>> What model is this?
>
> 88 Accord, around 286k miles.
>
>> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt
>> spec,
>> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>>
>> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
>> we're on the same page.
>>
>> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any
>> estimate
>> of how much torque was needed?
>
> Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the
> 92 Accord
> engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about
> 150-lbft
> and pretty exhausted.

:-)

That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
you may have heard.

I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
very first time I freed it.

> Tell you what, tommorow I will:
>
> 1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist
> horizontally
> and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
anything new. We all already know that after several years
and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
was last freed.

There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.

It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
temperature variations.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:wXntg.130284$dW3.57154@newssvr21.news.prodigy .com...
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>
>> What model is this?
>
> 88 Accord, around 286k miles.
>
>> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt
>> spec,
>> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>>
>> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
>> we're on the same page.
>>
>> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any
>> estimate
>> of how much torque was needed?
>
> Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the
> 92 Accord
> engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about
> 150-lbft
> and pretty exhausted.

:-)

That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
you may have heard.

I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
very first time I freed it.

> Tell you what, tommorow I will:
>
> 1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist
> horizontally
> and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
anything new. We all already know that after several years
and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
was last freed.

There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.

It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
temperature variations.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Burt" <burtsquareman@none.com> wrote in message
news:wXntg.130284$dW3.57154@newssvr21.news.prodigy .com...
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
>>
>> What model is this?
>
> 88 Accord, around 286k miles.
>
>> I know the 84-87 Civics have an 83 ft-lb pulley bolt
>> spec,
>> but some have a 2.9L engine?
>>
>> Little discrepancy that we should clear up to make sure
>> we're on the same page.
>>
>> Did you also try to break the bolt free? If so, any
>> estimate
>> of how much torque was needed?
>
> Yes, I could break it loose but I'd just broke loose the
> 92 Accord
> engine block coolant drain bolt today which took about
> 150-lbft
> and pretty exhausted.

:-)

That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
you may have heard.

I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
very first time I freed it.

> Tell you what, tommorow I will:
>
> 1. Hook up a beam torque wrench to a chain hoist
> horizontally
> and slowly chart the effects during unbolting.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
anything new. We all already know that after several years
and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
was last freed.

There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.

It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
temperature variations.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> :-)
>
> That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
> you may have heard.
>
> I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
> very first time I freed it.

As you've probably known, the bolt has a very shallow head.
This was the main problem. I had to build a jig to steady the
tool. After some thought the jig was nothing but two blocks
of wood (a 2x4 and a 2x1) and it was freed easily. :~)

> I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
> careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
> anything new. We all already know that after several years
> and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

I see. But looks like I do this at a later time. I'd set up the
chain come-along but I can't locate a buddy of mine who
has a 5-ton crane scale.

The 88 Accord pulley bolt which I believe had driven some
80k miles before the belt was changed was loosen easily. The
92 Accord was driven about the same miles but the bolt
needed help from a machine.

> If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
> just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
> was last freed.
>
> There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
> don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.
>
> It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
> threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
> temperature variations.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> :-)
>
> That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
> you may have heard.
>
> I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
> very first time I freed it.

As you've probably known, the bolt has a very shallow head.
This was the main problem. I had to build a jig to steady the
tool. After some thought the jig was nothing but two blocks
of wood (a 2x4 and a 2x1) and it was freed easily. :~)

> I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
> careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
> anything new. We all already know that after several years
> and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

I see. But looks like I do this at a later time. I'd set up the
chain come-along but I can't locate a buddy of mine who
has a 5-ton crane scale.

The 88 Accord pulley bolt which I believe had driven some
80k miles before the belt was changed was loosen easily. The
92 Accord was driven about the same miles but the bolt
needed help from a machine.

> If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
> just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
> was last freed.
>
> There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
> don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.
>
> It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
> threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
> temperature variations.

Re: crank bolt right or left hand thread?
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> :-)
>
> That's the other one that's a bear for the home mechanic, as
> you may have heard.
>
> I will say that my coolant block bolt was only tough the
> very first time I freed it.

As you've probably known, the bolt has a very shallow head.
This was the main problem. I had to build a jig to steady the
tool. After some thought the jig was nothing but two blocks
of wood (a 2x4 and a 2x1) and it was freed easily. :~)

> I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I don't think doing a
> careful check of the "break free" torque will reveal
> anything new. We all already know that after several years
> and many miles of driving, the bolt becomes very tight.

I see. But looks like I do this at a later time. I'd set up the
chain come-along but I can't locate a buddy of mine who
has a 5-ton crane scale.

The 88 Accord pulley bolt which I believe had driven some
80k miles before the belt was changed was loosen easily. The
92 Accord was driven about the same miles but the bolt
needed help from a machine.

> If your Accord's pulley bolt is not very tight, then this
> just suggests (to me) little time has transpired since it
> was last freed.
>
> There are some other suppositions that one can make, but I
> don't care to venture into what may be fantasy land.
>
> It certainly could be simply "cold welding" of this fine
> threaded bolt subjected to terrific dynamic loads and
> temperature variations.