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Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com... > Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting > 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that. > For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most > outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg > Hybrids are a Pr stunt only. Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason for the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of using a 260 hp engine to move a personal vehicle through city traffic or along a freeway while we could have *better* performance and economy from a 100 hp engine running when needed and electric power to do the rest. In effect, hybridization separates engine power from acceleration performance. Honda has a good example in their 2001 concept car, the Dualnote ( http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 passengers, 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable to a 600 hp car (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular Mechanics article a couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated around 40 mpg. Kinda like a Super Lupo ;-) Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can tell you the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe it is safe to say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception for passenger cars (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound design reasons. You may believe what you wish. Mike |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com... > Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting > 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that. > For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most > outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg > Hybrids are a Pr stunt only. Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason for the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of using a 260 hp engine to move a personal vehicle through city traffic or along a freeway while we could have *better* performance and economy from a 100 hp engine running when needed and electric power to do the rest. In effect, hybridization separates engine power from acceleration performance. Honda has a good example in their 2001 concept car, the Dualnote ( http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 passengers, 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable to a 600 hp car (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular Mechanics article a couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated around 40 mpg. Kinda like a Super Lupo ;-) Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can tell you the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe it is safe to say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception for passenger cars (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound design reasons. You may believe what you wish. Mike |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:T-ydnZ2dnZ0yTLnhnZ2dnQ2nbd-dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@sedona.net: > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com... >> In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>, >> Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something in black >> and white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not >> necessarily accept what he says at face value? > > Back to the issue.... > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a contract > with a company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add the > cost of that and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make > the claim in good conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and > costs them nothing at all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not > to... so what on earth would make you think such a thing? > > Mike > > > > Was the orignal claim about Toyota not recycling their NiMH batteries or the amount of battery life the batteries would have under ordinary service? I thought it was the latter. I do not doubt that Toyota would recycle the batteries. Their claims on life expectancy,I might doubt. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:T-ydnZ2dnZ0yTLnhnZ2dnQ2nbd-dnZ2dRVn-z52dnZ0@sedona.net: > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com... >> In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>, >> Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something in black >> and white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not >> necessarily accept what he says at face value? > > Back to the issue.... > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a contract > with a company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add the > cost of that and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make > the claim in good conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and > costs them nothing at all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not > to... so what on earth would make you think such a thing? > > Mike > > > > Was the orignal claim about Toyota not recycling their NiMH batteries or the amount of battery life the batteries would have under ordinary service? I thought it was the latter. I do not doubt that Toyota would recycle the batteries. Their claims on life expectancy,I might doubt. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:r8KdnT58c-ac3G3fRVn-2g@sedona.net: > "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message > news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com... >> Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting >> 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that. >> For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most >> outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg >> Hybrids are a Pr stunt only. > > Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason > for the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of > using a 260 hp engine Any ICO will not always be making it's full rated power,usually far less. >to move a personal vehicle through city traffic > or along a freeway while we could have *better* performance and > economy from a 100 hp engine running when needed and electric power to > do the rest. In effect, hybridization separates engine power from > acceleration performance. Honda has a good example in their 2001 > concept car, the Dualnote ( > http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 > passengers, 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable > to a 600 hp car (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular > Mechanics article a couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated > around 40 mpg. Kinda like a Super Lupo ;-) > > Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can > tell you the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe > it is safe to say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception > for passenger cars (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound > design reasons. You may believe what you wish. > > Mike > > > -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:r8KdnT58c-ac3G3fRVn-2g@sedona.net: > "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message > news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com... >> Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting >> 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that. >> For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most >> outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg >> Hybrids are a Pr stunt only. > > Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason > for the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of > using a 260 hp engine Any ICO will not always be making it's full rated power,usually far less. >to move a personal vehicle through city traffic > or along a freeway while we could have *better* performance and > economy from a 100 hp engine running when needed and electric power to > do the rest. In effect, hybridization separates engine power from > acceleration performance. Honda has a good example in their 2001 > concept car, the Dualnote ( > http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 > passengers, 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable > to a 600 hp car (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular > Mechanics article a couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated > around 40 mpg. Kinda like a Super Lupo ;-) > > Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can > tell you the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe > it is safe to say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception > for passenger cars (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound > design reasons. You may believe what you wish. > > Mike > > > -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <r8KdnT58c-ac3G3fRVn-2g@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: > "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message > news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com... > > Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting > > 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that. > > For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most > > outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg > > Hybrids are a Pr stunt only. > > Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason for > the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of using a 260 > hp engine to move a personal vehicle through city traffic or along a freeway > while we could have *better* performance and economy from a 100 hp engine > running when needed and electric power to do the rest. In effect, > hybridization separates engine power from acceleration performance. Honda > has a good example in their 2001 concept car, the Dualnote ( > http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 passengers, > 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable to a 600 hp car > (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular Mechanics article a > couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated around 40 mpg. Kinda like a > Super Lupo ;-) > > Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can tell you > the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe it is safe to > say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception for passenger cars > (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound design reasons. You may > believe what you wish. > > Mike Mike, You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of them. Jason -- NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <r8KdnT58c-ac3G3fRVn-2g@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: > "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message > news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com... > > Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting > > 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that. > > For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most > > outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg > > Hybrids are a Pr stunt only. > > Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason for > the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of using a 260 > hp engine to move a personal vehicle through city traffic or along a freeway > while we could have *better* performance and economy from a 100 hp engine > running when needed and electric power to do the rest. In effect, > hybridization separates engine power from acceleration performance. Honda > has a good example in their 2001 concept car, the Dualnote ( > http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 passengers, > 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable to a 600 hp car > (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular Mechanics article a > couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated around 40 mpg. Kinda like a > Super Lupo ;-) > > Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can tell you > the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe it is safe to > say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception for passenger cars > (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound design reasons. You may > believe what you wish. > > Mike Mike, You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of them. Jason -- NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net... > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of > them. > Jason Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"? |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net... > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of > them. > Jason Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"? |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <EI-dndRu498L1WzfRVn-gg@rogers.com>, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote: > "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net... > > > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of > > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily > > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is > > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid > > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of > > them. > > Jason > > Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN > Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN > Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E > > What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"? Steve, The above two prices that you mentioned. If the Hybrid Accord and EX-V6 Accord were both priced at $33,600--Honda would sell lots more of them. I rarely ever see any Hybrid Accords on any of the parking lots of the local grocery stores and Walmart stores. I see lots of the V6 (non Hybrid) in those same parking lots. I realize that this won't happen in the next 5 years since it costs Honda much more to make a Hybrid Accord than a regular Accord. Jason -- NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <EI-dndRu498L1WzfRVn-gg@rogers.com>, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote: > "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net... > > > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of > > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily > > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is > > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid > > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of > > them. > > Jason > > Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN > Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN > Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E > > What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"? Steve, The above two prices that you mentioned. If the Hybrid Accord and EX-V6 Accord were both priced at $33,600--Honda would sell lots more of them. I rarely ever see any Hybrid Accords on any of the parking lots of the local grocery stores and Walmart stores. I see lots of the V6 (non Hybrid) in those same parking lots. I realize that this won't happen in the next 5 years since it costs Honda much more to make a Hybrid Accord than a regular Accord. Jason -- NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice. We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people. |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
Jason wrote:
> Mike, > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of > them. > Jason > Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle. Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud buyer. A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a much more efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and in use. John |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
Jason wrote:
> Mike, > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of > them. > Jason > Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle. Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud buyer. A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a much more efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and in use. John |
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
Steve Bigelow wrote:
> "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net... > > >>You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of >>hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily >>afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is >>having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid >>was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of >>them. >>Jason > > > Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN > Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN > Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E > > What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"? As I was pricing a EX-V6 and a hybrid in the San Francisco area in Jan/Feb 2005 I found I could get the EX-V6 Navi (with leather) for $26K but the hybrid was about $32K. As I calculated it: for the price difference and MPG difference one would need to drive the car for 500K miles to break even. I would love to have a hybrid but that $6K put the hybrid out of the competition. |
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