Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

Steve Bigelow wrote:
> "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
>
>
>>You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>>hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>>afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>>having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>>was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>>them.
>>Jason
>
>
> Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN
> Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN
> Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E
>
> What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"?

As I was pricing a EX-V6 and a hybrid in the San Francisco area in
Jan/Feb 2005 I found I could get the EX-V6 Navi (with leather) for $26K
but the hybrid was about $32K. As I calculated it: for the price
difference and MPG difference one would need to drive the car for 500K
miles to break even.

I would love to have a hybrid but that $6K put the hybrid out of the
competition.

Re: Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> in black and
> > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> not
> > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
>
> Back to the issue....
> Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> contract with a
> company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> the cost of that
> and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> claim in good
> conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> nothing at
> all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> on earth would
> make you think such a thing?
>
> Mike

The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....

It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
over its entire lifetime.

So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.

--
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Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
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Re: Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> in black and
> > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> not
> > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
>
> Back to the issue....
> Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> contract with a
> company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> the cost of that
> and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> claim in good
> conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> nothing at
> all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> on earth would
> make you think such a thing?
>
> Mike

The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....

It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
over its entire lifetime.

So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.

--
Posted using the http://www.autoforumz.com interface, at author's request
Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
Topic URL: http://www.autoforumz.com/Honda-Dark...ict131376.html
Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=642274

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

thedonga wrote:
> "" wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> > in black and
> > > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> > not
> > > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
> >
> > Back to the issue....
> > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> > contract with a
> > company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> > the cost of that
> > and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> > claim in good
> > conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> > nothing at
> > all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> > on earth would
> > make you think such a thing?
> >
> > Mike
>
> The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
> cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....
>
> It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
> new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
> over its entire lifetime.
>
> So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.
>
there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles. whether
that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
manufacturing effort.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

thedonga wrote:
> "" wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> > in black and
> > > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> > not
> > > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
> >
> > Back to the issue....
> > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> > contract with a
> > company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> > the cost of that
> > and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> > claim in good
> > conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> > nothing at
> > all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> > on earth would
> > make you think such a thing?
> >
> > Mike
>
> The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
> cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....
>
> It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
> new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
> over its entire lifetime.
>
> So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.
>
there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles. whether
that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
manufacturing effort.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <hcOdnd3Zo-EEAmzfRVn-tw@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> thedonga wrote:
> > "" wrote:
> > > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > > > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > > > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> > > in black and
> > > > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> > > not
> > > > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
> > >
> > > Back to the issue....
> > > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> > > contract with a
> > > company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> > > the cost of that
> > > and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> > > claim in good
> > > conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> > > nothing at
> > > all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> > > on earth would
> > > make you think such a thing?
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
> > cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....
> >
> > It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
> > new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
> > over its entire lifetime.
> >
> > So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.
> >
> there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
> picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
> is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles. whether
> that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
> relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
> carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
> manufacturing effort.

Hello,
I agree with you related to your last point. I am now 54 years old and
remember all of the problems I had with cars made in the 1960's, 70's and
early 80's. The carburetor and electrical system was the main source of
those problems. I have never had any problems with the EFI system or
electrical system in both of Honda Accords that I have owned.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

In article <hcOdnd3Zo-EEAmzfRVn-tw@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> thedonga wrote:
> > "" wrote:
> > > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > > > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > > > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> > > in black and
> > > > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> > > not
> > > > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
> > >
> > > Back to the issue....
> > > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> > > contract with a
> > > company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> > > the cost of that
> > > and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> > > claim in good
> > > conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> > > nothing at
> > > all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> > > on earth would
> > > make you think such a thing?
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
> > cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....
> >
> > It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
> > new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
> > over its entire lifetime.
> >
> > So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.
> >
> there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
> picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
> is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles. whether
> that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
> relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
> carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
> manufacturing effort.

Hello,
I agree with you related to your last point. I am now 54 years old and
remember all of the problems I had with cars made in the 1960's, 70's and
early 80's. The carburetor and electrical system was the main source of
those problems. I have never had any problems with the EFI system or
electrical system in both of Honda Accords that I have owned.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:22:37 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jason wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>> them.
>> Jason
>>
>
>Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX
>hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy
>vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle.
>
>Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud
>buyer. A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a
>much more efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and
>in use.

Problem is, you can't get a decent, efficient, and above all else
MODERN diesel engine in the Us - i believe its because the fuel that
is sold here, doesn't work well with the new engine designs that have
come up in the last 20-odd years, and the new fuels don't work well
with the engines that have been sold in the US in those intervening 20
years.

>
>John
>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:22:37 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jason wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>> them.
>> Jason
>>
>
>Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX
>hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy
>vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle.
>
>Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud
>buyer. A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a
>much more efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and
>in use.

Problem is, you can't get a decent, efficient, and above all else
MODERN diesel engine in the Us - i believe its because the fuel that
is sold here, doesn't work well with the new engine designs that have
come up in the last 20-odd years, and the new fuels don't work well
with the engines that have been sold in the US in those intervening 20
years.

>
>John
>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:26:10 -0400, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

>
>"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
>news:aaase1lg0i6amans69chnlh9ujmubv6hb8@4ax.com.. .
>
>> People with hybrids can be described in one word - poser. "Look at me,
>> i'm driving a hybrid, aren't I trendy, trying to show i'm conserned
>> with the enviroment, but cool, and have money to waste" - what a right
>> old load of bollocks it is.
>
>I have a solution for you!
>Don't worry about what other people drive.

now tell the other 8 billion on the planet.

However, you seem to ahve confised what i was saying. I wasn't saying
that I particularly cared. its the Prius and similar drivers that
care, not about what others drive (although that is used as a
introduction to 'well i drive a ...') but about what other people
think about the car they drive.

Personally, i don't care about what other people think about the car i
drive, so i have a ratty civic, a ratty caravan, a ratty volvo 340,
and a ratty *looking* MG metroTT. They all have dents, they all have
rust. They're all from 87-89, and i really don't care what people
think about me as i drive past. This is a concept that is very hard
for a hybrid owner to grasp. The wife cares, hence she got a saturn
SL1, Meanwhile i'll look at a caterham superlight, or an Atom2

>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:26:10 -0400, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

>
>"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
>news:aaase1lg0i6amans69chnlh9ujmubv6hb8@4ax.com.. .
>
>> People with hybrids can be described in one word - poser. "Look at me,
>> i'm driving a hybrid, aren't I trendy, trying to show i'm conserned
>> with the enviroment, but cool, and have money to waste" - what a right
>> old load of bollocks it is.
>
>I have a solution for you!
>Don't worry about what other people drive.

now tell the other 8 billion on the planet.

However, you seem to ahve confised what i was saying. I wasn't saying
that I particularly cared. its the Prius and similar drivers that
care, not about what others drive (although that is used as a
introduction to 'well i drive a ...') but about what other people
think about the car they drive.

Personally, i don't care about what other people think about the car i
drive, so i have a ratty civic, a ratty caravan, a ratty volvo 340,
and a ratty *looking* MG metroTT. They all have dents, they all have
rust. They're all from 87-89, and i really don't care what people
think about me as i drive past. This is a concept that is very hard
for a hybrid owner to grasp. The wife cares, hence she got a saturn
SL1, Meanwhile i'll look at a caterham superlight, or an Atom2

>

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message > However, you seem to ahve
confised what i was saying. I wasn't saying
> that I particularly cared. its the Prius and similar drivers that
> care, not about what others drive (although that is used as a
> introduction to 'well i drive a ...') but about what other people
> think about the car they drive.
>
> Personally, i don't care about what other people think about the car i
> drive, so i have a ratty civic, a ratty caravan, a ratty volvo 340,
> and a ratty *looking* MG metroTT. They all have dents, they all have
> rust. They're all from 87-89, and i really don't care what people
> think about me as i drive past. This is a concept that is very hard
> for a hybrid owner to grasp. The wife cares, hence she got a saturn
> SL1, Meanwhile i'll look at a caterham superlight, or an Atom2
>
Hybrid drivers aren't that easy to categorize, either. Drive what you want -
when we were looking at replacing the Nissan that kept me busy in the
garage, we had two options (I'm the car authority in the family!) We could
employ my favored and time proven tactic of buying a reliable model of car
with at least 80K miles on it or we could buy a new hybrid. I saw no reason
at all to buy a 21st century car with a 20th century power train, and I had
looked forward to mass-market hybrids since I was introduced to the concept
of hybrids some decades ago. The Civic Hybrid was hardly an improvement over
the conventional Civic and was not in stock, but the Prius was just the
ticket. Toyota had lept most of the barriers to electrifying the accessories
(power steering and brakes were electric even then, and the A/C is electric
in the current model.) The 8 year / 100K mile warranty on the hybrid system,
combined with a *lot* of research, pretty much had me sold. I wasn't
prepared for the driving experience, though. The 2002 model is a great
chassis for city dwellers, with remarkable manueverability. The off-the-line
acceleration is impressive, even here at 7000 ft where our turbo Volvo makes
me wish we could do the Fred Flintstone thing until the turbo finally gets
its mojo working. The power train is easily the smoothest available
anywhere - since there is no transmission there are no shifts at all. We are
approaching 50K miles and have done nothing but routine maintenance, replace
the tires and replace a windshield that fell victim to the Arizona road
rocks. We have taken several long trips in it and after three years we still
love it.

I do know what you mean about the political bent of many Prius owners,
though. As a Reaganite I do not see eye-to-eye with many of the other
owners, whom Click and Clack characterized as "granola eating" and "tree
hugging." Oddly, I've learned I am one of four former or current Lotus
owners active in the Yahoo Prius group - and none of us hug trees. I miss my
Europa, but the Prius is almost as much fun to drive in its own way... and
*way* more reliable!

Mike

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message > However, you seem to ahve
confised what i was saying. I wasn't saying
> that I particularly cared. its the Prius and similar drivers that
> care, not about what others drive (although that is used as a
> introduction to 'well i drive a ...') but about what other people
> think about the car they drive.
>
> Personally, i don't care about what other people think about the car i
> drive, so i have a ratty civic, a ratty caravan, a ratty volvo 340,
> and a ratty *looking* MG metroTT. They all have dents, they all have
> rust. They're all from 87-89, and i really don't care what people
> think about me as i drive past. This is a concept that is very hard
> for a hybrid owner to grasp. The wife cares, hence she got a saturn
> SL1, Meanwhile i'll look at a caterham superlight, or an Atom2
>
Hybrid drivers aren't that easy to categorize, either. Drive what you want -
when we were looking at replacing the Nissan that kept me busy in the
garage, we had two options (I'm the car authority in the family!) We could
employ my favored and time proven tactic of buying a reliable model of car
with at least 80K miles on it or we could buy a new hybrid. I saw no reason
at all to buy a 21st century car with a 20th century power train, and I had
looked forward to mass-market hybrids since I was introduced to the concept
of hybrids some decades ago. The Civic Hybrid was hardly an improvement over
the conventional Civic and was not in stock, but the Prius was just the
ticket. Toyota had lept most of the barriers to electrifying the accessories
(power steering and brakes were electric even then, and the A/C is electric
in the current model.) The 8 year / 100K mile warranty on the hybrid system,
combined with a *lot* of research, pretty much had me sold. I wasn't
prepared for the driving experience, though. The 2002 model is a great
chassis for city dwellers, with remarkable manueverability. The off-the-line
acceleration is impressive, even here at 7000 ft where our turbo Volvo makes
me wish we could do the Fred Flintstone thing until the turbo finally gets
its mojo working. The power train is easily the smoothest available
anywhere - since there is no transmission there are no shifts at all. We are
approaching 50K miles and have done nothing but routine maintenance, replace
the tires and replace a windshield that fell victim to the Arizona road
rocks. We have taken several long trips in it and after three years we still
love it.

I do know what you mean about the political bent of many Prius owners,
though. As a Reaganite I do not see eye-to-eye with many of the other
owners, whom Click and Clack characterized as "granola eating" and "tree
hugging." Oddly, I've learned I am one of four former or current Lotus
owners active in the Yahoo Prius group - and none of us hug trees. I miss my
Europa, but the Prius is almost as much fun to drive in its own way... and
*way* more reliable!

Mike

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:x5eIe.13826$kc6.11391@trnddc03...
> Jason wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>> them. Jason
>>
>
> Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX
> hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy
> vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle.
>
> Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud buyer.
> A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a much more
> efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and in use.
>
> John
>
>
Sadly, you are right. The success of the Prius has been driven mainly by
fuel economy, but the luster of hybrids has led a lot of manufacturers to
jump on the bandwagon and call some pretty embarrassing things "hybrids." GM
is easily the worst, trying to pass off idle-stop technology as
hybridization. Proposed and existing legislation favoring (but not usually
defining) hybrids makes the problem worse.

Until controller and battery technology can bring us practical serial
hybrids (essentially electric cars with on-board chargers) we will have to
wade through the fluff.

Mike

Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:x5eIe.13826$kc6.11391@trnddc03...
> Jason wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>> them. Jason
>>
>
> Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX
> hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy
> vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle.
>
> Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud buyer.
> A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a much more
> efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and in use.
>
> John
>
>
Sadly, you are right. The success of the Prius has been driven mainly by
fuel economy, but the luster of hybrids has led a lot of manufacturers to
jump on the bandwagon and call some pretty embarrassing things "hybrids." GM
is easily the worst, trying to pass off idle-stop technology as
hybridization. Proposed and existing legislation favoring (but not usually
defining) hybrids makes the problem worse.

Until controller and battery technology can bring us practical serial
hybrids (essentially electric cars with on-board chargers) we will have to
wade through the fluff.

Mike