Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:5a5c44pdhbcgjtgkbqta93eqbm08pdh33p@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:07:39 -0500, Dan C
> <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:48:17 +0000, Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
>>
>>>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of
>>>>> money....
>>
>>>> Ahhh. You're a socialist/Lib/Dimocrat, eh?
>>
>>> Umm, for thinking the shareholders should not suffer losing money
>>> while the GM Chief is paid an insane amount of money?
>>
>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money.
>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system works.
>>As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, it's
>>certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's (also) how
>>things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple fact of life.
>>Perhaps if you had more education, you could make some money,
>>yourself!
>
> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total
> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the
> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor
> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM
> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind.
>
> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just in
> comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign
> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that American
> companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit of the
> executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the mainstream
> workers.
>
>



I usually stay away from Usenet politics, but here I must weigh in.

If you have a problem with the current state of corporate governance, I
have two terms for you to look up and study:
the Williams Act of 1968, and
the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1993.

There are other bad laws also to blame, but these two are the chief modern
troublemakers.

The problem here is not the machinations of ordinary individuals in their
ordinary course of life, but those of ordinary individuals able to exercise
state power over those who lack it.

Often the cure for a political disease is far worse than the disease that
prompted the cure.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

"Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in
news:48471613$0$30238$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> I agree, but the executives are workers, and GMs paying higher than the
> industry rate for executives.
>
>
>>
>> BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers.
>> They are run for making a profit for their owners.
>>
>> --
>> Jim Yanik
>> jyanik
>> at
>> kua.net
>
>
>

isn't that the decision of the company BOD(and the shareholders in a round-
about way) rather than the government?

What business is it of the government? (in a Capitalist society...)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

"Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in
news:484716e5$0$30193$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> I'm a capitalist, but overcompensating executives that don't perform
> and expecting the company to survive is stupidity that will kill the
> company. Do you need proof? Also, do you have to defame the Lord to
> make your point?
>>
>> Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free enterprise
>> system? This isn't a commune trying to the wealth amongst
>> everyone equally. This is a ing American business, whose goals
>> are (and should be) to make the maximum profit possible for the
>> company. How that company decides to compensate it's
>> directors/executives and other workers is decided by the company.
>> Rick Wagoner didn't set his own salary, the goddam board of directors
>> (and shareholders) did. Don't blame the dude for accepting what they
>> offer to pay him.
>>
>> We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at the
>> circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that.
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
>> Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups.
>> The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
>>
>
>
>

WHERE do you see any authority under the US Constitution for government to
make such decisions as to what a private company's execs are paid?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:178e44d2kc77fbiothmt12oms754qfudpe@4ax.com:

> On 4 Jun 2008 12:16:36 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
>>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
>>news:5a5c44pdhbcgjtgkbqta93eqbm08pdh33p@4ax.co m:
>>
>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:07:39 -0500, Dan C
>>><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:48:17 +0000, Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of
>>>>>>> money....
>>>>
>>>>>> Ahhh. You're a socialist/Lib/Dimocrat, eh?
>>>>
>>>>> Umm, for thinking the shareholders should not suffer losing money
>>>>> while the GM Chief is paid an insane amount of money?
>>>>
>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money.
>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system works.
>>>>As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, it's
>>>>certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's (also) how
>>>>things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple fact of life.
>>>>Perhaps if you had more education, you could make some money,
>>>>yourself!
>>>
>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total
>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the
>>> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor
>>> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM
>>> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind.
>>>
>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just in
>>> comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign
>>> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that American
>>> companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit of the
>>> executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the mainstream
>>> workers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>and whose fault is that?
>>Do you suggest "there oughta be a law against it"?
>
> A law against it? Hell no. I think the tax tables need to be
> adjusted.

Ah,so everybody DOESNT get treated equally under the law.
If you work smarter,earn more,you get taxed at higher rates as punishment.

> And when he tries to pass on this tremendous wealth to
> whatever progeny might share his genetic makeup, that transfer should
> be heavily taxed.

DOUBLE taxation? The guy's income was taxed once,and he should be able to
pass on his private property(assets) to his progeny without being taxed
on the same income again.

You must be a Socialist-Communist;everything is property of the State.
Or simply jealous of those who do better than you,and want government to
strip them of their earnings and life's accumulations.

> If the company then wants to make a major
> contribution (albeit indirect) to the US Treasury, they can knock
> themselves out.
>
>>BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers.
>
> And unions are not run for the benefit of the company.
>
>>They are run for making a profit for their owners.
>
> Tell that to the GM shareholders. I bet not 0.1% of them make as much
> as Wagoner.
>

But it is STILL *THEIR* decision,not the US Government.
Not in a non-Communist society.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:48:29 -0500, Dan C
><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:27:46 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote:
>>
>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money.
>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system
>>>>works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well,
>>>>it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's (also)
>>>>how things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple fact of
>>>>life. Perhaps if you had more education, you could make some money,
>>>>yourself!
>>
>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total
>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the
>>> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor
>>> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM
>>> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind.
>>
>>How much he makes in comparison to other executives (especially
>>foreigners) is completely irrelevant. He was paid an amount that was
>>decided upon by the board of directors, who are supposed to be the
>>direct
>
> "supposed to" being the operative statement here.
>
>>representatives of the shareholders. Blame the board, and the
>>shareholders, for paying him too much, if you must blame someone.
>
> Blame the Board (aka his golf buddies), sure. The stockholders' only
> real vote is to sell. Considering that GM stock is worth no more now
> than it was in 1960, I think a lot of them have already voted.
>
>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just in
>>> comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign
>>> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that
>>> American companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit
>>> of the executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the
>>> mainstream workers.
>>
>>Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free enterprise
>>system? This isn't a commune trying to the wealth amongst
>>everyone equally. This is a ing American business, whose goals
>>are (and should be) to make the maximum profit possible for the
>>company.
>
> I agree, that should be the goal. I am telling you that you are
> naive. The purpose of the company is to make the top executives as
> rich as possible.
>
>> How that company
>>decides to compensate it's directors/executives and other workers is
>>decided by the company. Rick Wagoner didn't set his own salary, the
>>goddam board of directors (and shareholders) did. Don't blame the
>>dude for accepting what they offer to pay him.
>
> And when he sits on the board of their company, don't blame them for
> accepting what Rick Wagoner gives them.
>
>>We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at the
>>circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that.
>
> Democracy is so untidy. Let's just make Bush dictator like he said he
> wanted.
>
>

It appears YOU are the one who wants to assign "dictator" powers to the
government.
YOU want the government to dictate to companies how much they can pay for
certain jobs.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.com:


Tell me,did you once post by the name "krztalizer"?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

jim beam wrote:
> Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:ucSdnRWhqPCtYNjVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>> Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
>>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money....
>>>>
>>>> The best quote:
>>>> "We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in
>>>> and run the whole place," John Lauve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5
>>>>
>>> troll
>>
>> Okay, you go to plonky town.. Buh Bye! PLONK
>>
>
> let's see how this works:
>
> 1. you repeatedly troll.
>
> 2. i call you on it.
>
> 3. you stick your head in the sand.
>
> doesn't seem very smart. or social. but i guess problems with social
> interaction are why you're trolling in the first place.
>

I am still trying to figure out what any of this guy's posts have to do
with Honda products....

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

On 2008-06-04, JoeSpareBedroom <dishborealis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Dan C" <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote in message
> news:pan.2008.06.04.01.11.59.798335@moria.lan...
>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 +0000, Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote:
>>
>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money....
>>
>> Ahhh. You're a socialist/Lib/Dimocrat, eh?
>>
>> <snip>
>
>
> I'm sure Republican shareholders are just as pissed off as anyone else.
>
> You know that. But you needed to say something. Anything. Even if it made no
> sense.
>
>

Why should the shareholders be pissed? They voted to hire the CEO,
and they approved his contract. If they are upset, they only have
themselves to blame.


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

On 2008-06-04, Roadrunner NG <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote:
> I'm a capitalist, but overcompensating executives that don't perform and
> expecting the company to survive is stupidity that will kill the company.
> Do you need proof? Also, do you have to defame the Lord to make your point?

So? If the decisions of the board are bad for the company, the
company goes out of business. Tough . Someone else will take
their place, and likely be better run. The shareholders have noone
but themselves to blame. And the workers will just have to find new
jobs. It happens to most of us at some point...

And which lord are you talking about? Personally, I don't answer to
one, so I have none to defame... Not that I care about your personal
religious choices, but don't assume that everyone you are talking to
shares them...

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

On Jun 5, 12:45 am, Joe <j...@nospam.hits-buffalo.com> wrote:
> On 2008-06-04, JoeSpareBedroom <dishborea...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>

let's say, joe got a job cleaning urinals and phucked up..

>
> Why should the shareholders be pissed? They voted to hire the CEO,
> and they approved his contract. If they are upset, they only have
> themselves to blame.
>

why should joe's boss be pissed? she decided to hire joe and she
approved joe's contract. if joe doesn't wipe the urinals clean, the
boss only has herself to blame.

conclusion: joe is a communist!

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

If you read my post I did not say it was any business of the governments,
and in fact I don't think it should be. However, the fact remains, that exec
salaries are out of line with the competition. I know that sounds like a
liberal rant, but in this case it is just the facts. The board should clean
house and the stockholders should vote with their wallets.

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9AB3CA306D8B2jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.83...
> "Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in
> news:48471613$0$30238$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>
>> I agree, but the executives are workers, and GMs paying higher than the
>> industry rate for executives.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers.
>>> They are run for making a profit for their owners.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim Yanik
>>> jyanik
>>> at
>>> kua.net
>>
>>
>>
>
> isn't that the decision of the company BOD(and the shareholders in a
> round-
> about way) rather than the government?
>
> What business is it of the government? (in a Capitalist society...)
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:27:51 -0500, Roadrunner NG wrote:

> I'm a capitalist, but overcompensating executives that don't perform and
> expecting the company to survive is stupidity that will kill the company.

That's the company's problem. It's not your problem, nor mine. Companies
go out of business every day, for many different reasons. Welcome to
America, and the free enterprise system.

> Do you need proof?

No.

> Also, do you have to defame the Lord to make your point?

Sometimes.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups.
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

"Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in
news:4847d512$0$7697$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:

> If you read my post I did not say it was any business of the
> governments, and in fact I don't think it should be. However, the fact
> remains, that exec salaries are out of line with the competition. I
> know that sounds like a liberal rant, but in this case it is just the
> facts. The board should clean house and the stockholders should vote
> with their wallets.
>
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
> news:Xns9AB3CA306D8B2jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.83...
>> "Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in
>> news:48471613$0$30238$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>>
>>> I agree, but the executives are workers, and GMs paying higher than
>>> the industry rate for executives.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers.
>>>> They are run for making a profit for their owners.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jim Yanik
>>>> jyanik
>>>> at
>>>> kua.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> isn't that the decision of the company BOD(and the shareholders in a
>> round-
>> about way) rather than the government?
>>
>> What business is it of the government? (in a Capitalist society...)
>>
>> --
>> Jim Yanik
>> jyanik
>> at
>> kua.net
>
>
>

the BOD of many companies is like a elite club;they often serve on several
companies BODs,and I think they select who can be elected to the BODs.(the
choices) So,the shareholders don't really get a lot of say in the
matter,and the execs get to give each other huge salaries and
bonuses,without regard to actual exec performance as shown by stock price
and ROI.

It's seems like a vicious circle.

But the fact remains that many people(socialists) DO think the gov't should
step in and cap exec salaries.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 GMT, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!"
<One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote:

>and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money....
>
>The best quote:
>"We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in and run
>the whole place," John Lauve
>
>
>http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5

RE: See Dr. Deming and why the Japanese whooped our asses in producing
quality cars (and other goods) leading to *long term* success of the
company and their economy. Most people were amused at the
macroeconomic driven view that people like Deming took (and others
still spout) but look at the benefits now vis-a-vis the US economy.
You don't even want to read what folks like this are writing about the
current US economy and direction.

GM has no one to blame but themselves. Continuously. Repeatedly. Over
and over again. The writing was on the wall in the 70's and they still
haven't taken notice.

The only good news in it for the US is that the Japanese discovered
that their primary cost issue was distribution. So now, most Jap cars
are made in the USA. In effect, the Japanese are now US car companies.
And, contrary to what your friends will tell you at the water cooler,
the majority of the money they take in is spent here, not back in
Japan. See those funky economists for more of that.

Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
 

still just me wrote:

> The only good news in it for the US is that the Japanese discovered
> that their primary cost issue was distribution. So now, most Jap cars
> are made in the USA.

There were several reasons for this. Protectionism and the challenge by
the big 3 for the Japanese manufacturers to have U.S. factories.
Protection against currency fluctuation, given the strong Yen.
Transportation costs. The ability to market the vehicles with references
to the U.S. factories and jobs. It worked out pretty well for them.