Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

On Mar 30, 11:24 pm, Mr. G <m...@aol.com> wrote:
> In article <gqs0vn$3u...@news.motzarella.org>, Justbob30 (justbob30
> @hotmail.com) says...> Actually, it is going for a HCX /Insight 1/FCX Clarity look, the Prius
> > copied Honda, not the other way.
>
> The original Insight looks *nothing* like either the new Insight or the
> Prius, and the Clarity concept car wasn't unveiled until long after the
> NHW20 Prius.

yeah, the original insight reminds me of the pedal powered speed
record competitors with its ultraaerodynamics. the new one is more of
a junior civic hybrid.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

thus spoke the green taliban :(

CO2 MUST be cut by 80% by 2050 yet even green experts say its only higher
than the 14th C by 30% - WTF?

"Justbob30" <justbob30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gqt9d2$5p0$1@news.motzarella.org...
> Yes Tommy, People do, in spite of your obvious hybrid misinformation and
> disgust for anything different than what you have. you have posted 2
> vague accusations now, post some facts and, please don't post that tired
> urban legend about the nickel mines in Canada that were cleaned up 10
> years before the Hybrid was introduced
>
> "Ttoommy" <ttoommy@googlemail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:73eidgFuhcjiU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Does anyone who does not have a private jet at their beck and call
>> actually drive these the most ungreen of green cars?
>>
>>

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

Ttoommy wrote:
> thus spoke the green taliban :(
>
> CO2 MUST be cut by 80% by 2050 yet even green experts say its only higher
> than the 14th C by 30% - WTF?

Those are percentages of two different things, in much
the same way that the debt and the deficit are different.

The 80% cut by 2050 refers to CO2 emissions. Globally,
we're currently emitting on the order of 30 billion
tonnes of CO2 annually.

The 30% increase refers to the amount of CO2 in the
atmosphere, currently 387 ppmv, or about 3 trillion
tonnes.

Cutting emissions by 80% by 2050 would mean that
atmospheric CO2 levels should peak at around 450 to 500
ppmv, or about 60-80% higher than pre-industrial levels.

> "Justbob30" <justbob30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gqt9d2$5p0$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> Yes Tommy, People do, in spite of your obvious hybrid misinformation and
>> disgust for anything different than what you have. you have posted 2
>> vague accusations now, post some facts and, please don't post that tired
>> urban legend about the nickel mines in Canada that were cleaned up 10
>> years before the Hybrid was introduced
>>
>> "Ttoommy" <ttoommy@googlemail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:73eidgFuhcjiU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Does anyone who does not have a private jet at their beck and call
>>> actually drive these the most ungreen of green cars?

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-69716C.22505130032009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
> In article <MPG.243b4a9f5cc3a2c89896b3@news.giganews.com>,
> Mr. G <mrg@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> From what I've read and seen about the Insight, they seem to be going
>> for a Prius exterior look,
>
> The original 2-seater Insight had that same look, and it predated the
> Prius.

The original Insight looked, to me, nothing like the '04 Prius or the new
Insight.

Cathy


>
> --
> It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the GOP did to
> America.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

Cathy F. wrote:
> "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
> news:michelle-69716C.22505130032009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
>> In article <MPG.243b4a9f5cc3a2c89896b3@news.giganews.com>,
>> Mr. G <mrg@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From what I've read and seen about the Insight, they seem to be going
>>> for a Prius exterior look,
>> The original 2-seater Insight had that same look, and it predated the
>> Prius.
>
> The original Insight looked, to me, nothing like the '04 Prius or the new
> Insight.
>
> Cathy


As I recall, that general aerodynamic shape is called the KAMM BACK.
Audi A2, Insight (both), Prius -- all are in that family, along with
many competition cars. Perhaps the horrific Pontiac Aztec, as well.

Ike

....hoping that Obama succeeds, but planning for an abysmal failure

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

"Ike" <binarydotike@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gr8vmp$1rl$1@news.motzarella.org...
> Cathy F. wrote:
>> "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
>> news:michelle-69716C.22505130032009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
>>> In article <MPG.243b4a9f5cc3a2c89896b3@news.giganews.com>,
>>> Mr. G <mrg@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From what I've read and seen about the Insight, they seem to be going
>>>> for a Prius exterior look,
>>> The original 2-seater Insight had that same look, and it predated the
>>> Prius.
>>
>> The original Insight looked, to me, nothing like the '04 Prius or the new
>> Insight.
>>
>> Cathy
>
>
> As I recall, that general aerodynamic shape is called the KAMM BACK.

The back/tail end, AFAIK, is what constitutes the Kamm back. Not the entire
general shape.

Cathy


> Audi A2, Insight (both), Prius -- all are in that family, along with many
> competition cars. Perhaps the horrific Pontiac Aztec, as well.
>
> Ike
>
> ...hoping that Obama succeeds, but planning for an abysmal failure

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

"rtc" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:1860B155655B4B039F2D55D0FDCA3C71@DefaultPC...
> Business Week
>
> Given the parlous state of the auto industry, the rivalry between Honda's
> new Insight and Toyota's third-generation Prius is proving to be an
> enjoyable diversion. Committed to increasing sales of gas-electric models,
> the companies are launching hybrid cars in quick succession-and neither
> one is skimping when it comes to generating hype...
>
> Continued: http://tinyurl.com/HybridWar

Yes, going to be interesting...

Cathy


>

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

Cathy F. wrote:
> "Ike" <binarydotike@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gr8vmp$1rl$1@news.motzarella.org...
>> Cathy F. wrote:
>>> "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
>>> news:michelle-69716C.22505130032009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
>>>> In article <MPG.243b4a9f5cc3a2c89896b3@news.giganews.com>,
>>>> Mr. G <mrg@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From what I've read and seen about the Insight, they seem to be going
>>>>> for a Prius exterior look,
>>>> The original 2-seater Insight had that same look, and it predated the
>>>> Prius.
>>> The original Insight looked, to me, nothing like the '04 Prius or the new
>>> Insight.
>>>
>>> Cathy
>>
>> As I recall, that general aerodynamic shape is called the KAMM BACK.
>
> The back/tail end, AFAIK, is what constitutes the Kamm back. Not the entire
> general shape.
>
> Cathy

Well, no. There's a mathematical description of the shape, in which the
butt truncation occurs where its cross-sectional area is equal to a
specific percentage of the maximum cross section of the vehicle (about
half, I think). It's the gestalt - the whole car.

Ike

Increasingly dubious that anyone, including Saint Barack, has any chance
whatsoever of avoiding an economic collapse, rampant inflation, and
sociological cataclysm.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

"Ike" <binarydotike@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gr91th$i64$1@news.motzarella.org...
> Cathy F. wrote:
>> "Ike" <binarydotike@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:gr8vmp$1rl$1@news.motzarella.org...
>>> Cathy F. wrote:
>>>> "Michelle Steiner" <michelle@michelle.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:michelle-69716C.22505130032009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
>>>>> In article <MPG.243b4a9f5cc3a2c89896b3@news.giganews.com>,
>>>>> Mr. G <mrg@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From what I've read and seen about the Insight, they seem to be going
>>>>>> for a Prius exterior look,
>>>>> The original 2-seater Insight had that same look, and it predated the
>>>>> Prius.
>>>> The original Insight looked, to me, nothing like the '04 Prius or the
>>>> new Insight.
>>>>
>>>> Cathy
>>>
>>> As I recall, that general aerodynamic shape is called the KAMM BACK.
>>
>> The back/tail end, AFAIK, is what constitutes the Kamm back. Not the
>> entire general shape.
>>
>> Cathy
>
> Well, no. There's a mathematical description of the shape, in which the
> butt truncation occurs where its cross-sectional area is equal to a
> specific percentage of the maximum cross section of the vehicle (about
> half, I think). It's the gestalt - the whole car.

You know what...? Whichever it is technically, I do not think the original
Insight resembled the new one, nor the Prius (which the new Insight does
resemble - shape-wise). And... why would Honda even *want* the new Insight
to resemble the old one, considering how that one fared? They need a fresh
new start with this version, which I think they're getting.

Cathy


>
> Ike
>
> Increasingly dubious that anyone, including Saint Barack, has any chance
> whatsoever of avoiding an economic collapse, rampant inflation, and
> sociological cataclysm.
>

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

On Mar 31, 8:47 am, Ike <binarydot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Few will drive Insight and Prius and choose the Honda, as it's simply
> less of a car. When the new Prius reaches the market, the difference
> will grow.

The Insight's electric motor provides 13 HP compared to 67 HP for the
Prius. That has a major impact on city driving with regenerative
braking less able to recover energy while stopping.

The original Insight used aluminum extensively to lower weight and
improve crashworthiness.

--
Ron

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

On Mar 30, 10:36 am, "rtc" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]
> wrote:
> Business Week
>
> Given the parlous state of the auto industry, the rivalry between Honda's
> newInsightand Toyota's third-generationPriusis proving to be an
> enjoyable diversion. Committed to increasing sales of gas-electric models,
> the companies are launching hybrid cars in quick succession-and neither one
> is skimping when it comes to generating hype...
>
> Continued:http://tinyurl.com/HybridWar


This weekend I rented a 2009 Prius (Basic) to validate
what since now I have had only read about.


I drove the Prius on suburban roads and for
a brief time I tested it out on a 6 lane super
highway. At high speeds the cabin
was a slightly noisy .

The joystick-parking button drive mode gave me strangest feeling
of all the really big differences - rather than have a different
position
for each drive mode (R,N,D,P,B) the joystick position normally is
in only one position and moving the joystick in a particular direction
(up, down, right, left) selects a drive mode. However, in order for
that drive mode to be selected the driver must press the brake
pedal (like a manual transmission clutch) to change the drive
mode - and to park one needs to press a park button. The motion
was not easy for me and there was no positive feel with
the joystick - so I found myself constantly looking at the
LED display to determine if I was in the correct drive mode.

Using the energy display, it was fairly easy to get the Prius to
average between 45 to 55 mpg. However, the energy displays
position in the center of the car is somewhat distracting.
I would have preferred an *energy* display next to speedometer
display (one led for battery recharging, one led for gasoline engine
drive on, one led for eletric engine drive on, and a real-time
Led MPG gauge )

The Prius really shines when it comes to maximizing fuel
efficiency. The hints that I had read on hypermiling with
the Prius came in handy - e.g. tapping the brake
pedals before an anticipate stop helps initiate the battery
recharging earlier than if the computer were to initiate it. Also
getting the car up to speed quickly and then letting go of the
accelerator to cut off the gas engine and then slightly pressing
the accelerator to try to the electric motor to maintain the
speed on a downhill or flat road helps push up the MPGs.
However, for sudden short stop-and-go traffic and driving
uphill - the Prius mpg suffered (also I've read that the
Prius MPG also suffers when it is really cold. ISTM the
Prius can get over 50 mpg when it is driven in warm dry
weather over relatively flat roads over long distances
with few stops ). If one is driving in very agressive highway
environment or short trips that are have a great deal of
stop and go traffic - it would be difficult for a driver to
modify their driving to get the optimum fuel efficiency
from the 2009 Prius.

I found the fuel gauge is not a linear indicator of how much
fuel is left in the Prius. The Prius is suppose to have a 11.9 gallon
fuel *bladder" ; when the Prius is down to its last 3 gallons a
low fuel gauge warning light is suppose to go on. The fuel gauge
has 10 led segments when it was down to three led segments
I filled it with 3 gallons - but it only raised the fuel gauge to
4 led segments - so then I filled it with 3 more gallons which
then increase the fuel gauge setting to 10 led segments
(initially when I got car from the rental office - the fuel gauge
was at five led segments (1/2 way full marker) .

The sunlight had a tendency to washout the LCD screen
it would have been easier to read if the LCD screen had some
sun visor over top of it.

Not all of the buttons and dials on the dashboard and on the steering
wheel
don't light up (at night) making them harder to find them in the
dark. . The volume
dial and the seek button are too close to each other.

If the back of front passenger seat was shorter or if there was
slightty
more distant between the backseat and the front passenger seat
one might be able to take off the front passenger seat head rest
and push the back of the front passenger seat all the way down
(like the honda fit) and fit a very long object in the passenger
side...
With the front passenger seat pushed forward all the way and the
rear seats folded down - the maximum cargo length is abou 6.25 feet.
maximum cargo height is about 2.4 feet and the maximum cargo
width is from 3.25 to 4.feet.

The Prius isn't a very fast car - so merging into a superhighway
is its weakest trait.

I've also read that the Prius' low rolling friction
tires don't perform that well in rain and snow....

Lastly, the Prius as well as probably all non SUV hybrids
doesn't have any towing capacity. The total weight of the
driver, passengers, and cargo in the Prius (Vehicle Capacity
Weight) is not suppose to be over 810 pounds.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

In article
<d5645727-c223-4a20-8fcb-301320e93712@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote:

> so I found myself constantly looking at the LED display to determine
> if I was in the correct drive mode.

Considering that there is only one drive mode, you're always in the
correct drive mode. "B" is not a drive mode, and shouldn't be used
except when driving on a long downhill. It took me less than an hour
for that selector to become second nature.

> However, the energy displays position in the center of the car is
> somewhat distracting.

One can change the display to something else, or even turn it off
completely.

> I would have preferred an *energy* display next to speedometer
> display

That's coming with the 2010 model. In fact, the center display screen
will be gone completely unless you have the GPS navigation package.

> However, for sudden short stop-and-go traffic and driving uphill -
> the Prius mpg suffered

True, but it still gets better mileage under those conditions than other
cars do, because their mileage suffers as well.

> also I've read that the Prius MPG also suffers when it is really
> cold.

As do all internal-combustion engines.

> If one is driving in very agressive highway environment or short
> trips that are have a great deal of stop and go traffic - it would be
> difficult for a driver to modify their driving to get the optimum
> fuel efficiency from the 2009 Prius.

True, but the same is also true of other cars.

> I found the fuel gauge is not a linear indicator of how much fuel is
> left in the Prius.

That's true of all gas gauges, but the bladder makes it more so with the
Prius; the bladder is in only the US versions of the car, BTW.

> The Prius is suppose to have a 11.9 gallon fuel *bladder" ;

The bladder will be gone with the 2010 model.

> The sunlight had a tendency to washout the LCD screen it would have
> been easier to read if the LCD screen had some sun visor over top of
> it.

That's because the LCD screen is polarized for left-hand drive. It's
been a sore point for many drivers who have right-and drive models.

> Not all of the buttons and dials on the dashboard and on the steering
> wheel don't light up (at night) making them harder to find them in
> the dark.

Actually, all the ones on the steering wheel do, but they're not bright
enough. The ones on the dash that don't light up are rarely used.

> The Prius isn't a very fast car - so merging into a superhighway is
> its weakest trait.

I've never had a problem with that; the car can go up to over 100 MPH,
and I've found acceleration to be very brisk. It's not a muscle car,
but it is peppy enough to not have any merge problems. I'm up to
highway speed by the time I reach the end of the onramp, before I am in
the merge lane.

--
It's now time for healing, and for fixing the damage the GOP did to America.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

In article
<d5645727-c223-4a20-8fcb-301320e93712@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote:

> The joystick-parking button drive mode gave me strangest feeling
> of all the really big differences - rather than have a different
> position
> for each drive mode (R,N,D,P,B) the joystick position normally is
> in only one position and moving the joystick in a particular direction
> (up, down, right, left) selects a drive mode. However, in order for
> that drive mode to be selected the driver must press the brake
> pedal (like a manual transmission clutch) to change the drive
> mode

Ummmmm.....actually, one needs press the brake pedal only to shift OUT
of park.

Not sure what you THINK you had to do, but if you were pressing the
brake pedal to shift from D to N or B, you were doing it wrong.

What else were you doing wrong?




> I've also read that the Prius' low rolling friction
> tires don't perform that well in rain and snow....

I read that too--and yet, I went through 40K miles and two winters
without a hint of problem. Go figure.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-ACE973.06295613042009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
> In article
> <d5645727-c223-4a20-8fcb-301320e93712@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
> residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The joystick-parking button drive mode gave me strangest feeling
>> of all the really big differences - rather than have a different
>> position
>> for each drive mode (R,N,D,P,B) the joystick position normally is
>> in only one position and moving the joystick in a particular direction
>> (up, down, right, left) selects a drive mode. However, in order for
>> that drive mode to be selected the driver must press the brake
>> pedal (like a manual transmission clutch) to change the drive
>> mode
>
> Ummmmm.....actually, one needs press the brake pedal only to shift OUT
> of park.
>
> Not sure what you THINK you had to do, but if you were pressing the
> brake pedal to shift from D to N or B, you were doing it wrong.
>
> What else were you doing wrong?
>
>
>
>
>> I've also read that the Prius' low rolling friction
>> tires don't perform that well in rain and snow....
>
> I read that too--and yet, I went through 40K miles and two winters
> without a hint of problem. Go figure.

Not me. After the first 20K the tires were useless on ice and snow.

Re: Hybrid War: Honda vs Toyota
 

Why does it have to be a war?
Under new mileage laws most vehicles will need hybrid technology
next decade.
Plus $5 - $10 gasoline WILL return in a matter of time.
Better to work the bugs out now before get into high volumes.