Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
news:5db1e080537ee127b7763eca808df732@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> The gun I was using was 650 ft-lbs, with a 7.5HP 20Gal
> compressor, and it still wouldn't break the bolt free...
>
I just bought a 500 ft-lb driver, and the Honda is no-go with that. I bought
it anyway because I know there are some driveaxles in my future, and the
smaller driver wouldn't handle them well. Oh, well - that one was only $30
anyway!

Next attempt: using a high temp (800F) heat gun on the bolt and then trying
the 500 ft-lb. If still no-go, I'll see what I can rent. Failing that, I'll
see what the dealer wants for breaking it loose.

Mike

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

On 11/10/04 6:15 AM, in article zIqdnXrmYbDImw_cRVn-gw@sedona.net, "Michael
Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

> "disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
> news:5db1e080537ee127b7763eca808df732@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>> The gun I was using was 650 ft-lbs, with a 7.5HP 20Gal
>> compressor, and it still wouldn't break the bolt free...
>>
> I just bought a 500 ft-lb driver, and the Honda is no-go with that. I bought
> it anyway because I know there are some driveaxles in my future, and the
> smaller driver wouldn't handle them well. Oh, well - that one was only $30
> anyway!
>
> Next attempt: using a high temp (800F) heat gun on the bolt and then trying
> the 500 ft-lb. If still no-go, I'll see what I can rent. Failing that, I'll
> see what the dealer wants for breaking it loose.
>
> Mike
>
>
I have seen it documented in several places that 500 ft-lb air wrench will
not do it.

I think I would be at least a little fearful of destroying a seal or some
other important piece of plastic in the vicinity using heat. Also, I don't
think it will help.

If you don't have the immobilizer tool, you can get it for about $25 from
http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm

Put your impact socket and a hardened impact extension on it (long enough to
clear the fender but no longer because it is going to twist). Find a
hardened breaker bar and extend it with a 4 foot piece of gas pipe. I used
a jack stand for a fulcrum. The extension will twist about 90 degrees, then
the bolt will break loose with a pop. This sounds ugly, but it is a lot
cheaper than buying ever bigger impact wrenches and you don't have to be
particularly strong to do it.

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

On 11/10/04 6:15 AM, in article zIqdnXrmYbDImw_cRVn-gw@sedona.net, "Michael
Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

> "disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
> news:5db1e080537ee127b7763eca808df732@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>> The gun I was using was 650 ft-lbs, with a 7.5HP 20Gal
>> compressor, and it still wouldn't break the bolt free...
>>
> I just bought a 500 ft-lb driver, and the Honda is no-go with that. I bought
> it anyway because I know there are some driveaxles in my future, and the
> smaller driver wouldn't handle them well. Oh, well - that one was only $30
> anyway!
>
> Next attempt: using a high temp (800F) heat gun on the bolt and then trying
> the 500 ft-lb. If still no-go, I'll see what I can rent. Failing that, I'll
> see what the dealer wants for breaking it loose.
>
> Mike
>
>
I have seen it documented in several places that 500 ft-lb air wrench will
not do it.

I think I would be at least a little fearful of destroying a seal or some
other important piece of plastic in the vicinity using heat. Also, I don't
think it will help.

If you don't have the immobilizer tool, you can get it for about $25 from
http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm

Put your impact socket and a hardened impact extension on it (long enough to
clear the fender but no longer because it is going to twist). Find a
hardened breaker bar and extend it with a 4 foot piece of gas pipe. I used
a jack stand for a fulcrum. The extension will twist about 90 degrees, then
the bolt will break loose with a pop. This sounds ugly, but it is a lot
cheaper than buying ever bigger impact wrenches and you don't have to be
particularly strong to do it.

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
just broken some tools.

But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.

Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
not a 3/8 like we all use.

t

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
just broken some tools.

But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.

Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
not a 3/8 like we all use.

t

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

Interesting how the show to torque the crank pulley bolt in the
shop manual (honda factory manual). They say to seat the bolt at 14
ft-lbs,
then mark it and the washer with a marker at 12 o clock. Then turn it
until it is at 3 o clock. It would be kinda hard I'm thinking,
since the crankshaft will turn a little when you are
torquing it, but if you could use the embossing marks as
a reference, it might work.

t

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

Interesting how the show to torque the crank pulley bolt in the
shop manual (honda factory manual). They say to seat the bolt at 14
ft-lbs,
then mark it and the washer with a marker at 12 o clock. Then turn it
until it is at 3 o clock. It would be kinda hard I'm thinking,
since the crankshaft will turn a little when you are
torquing it, but if you could use the embossing marks as
a reference, it might work.

t

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the
knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric
(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is less
than 500, so something is incomplete....

A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd
choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2
inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose
up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool.

In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it is
a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to the
touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, too.
I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that.

I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they fit
that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would
probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a jackstand.

I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry.

Mike

"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
> just broken some tools.
>
> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.
>
> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
> not a 3/8 like we all use.
>
> t
>

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the
knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric
(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is less
than 500, so something is incomplete....

A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd
choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2
inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose
up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool.

In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it is
a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to the
touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, too.
I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that.

I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they fit
that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would
probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a jackstand.

I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry.

Mike

"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
> just broken some tools.
>
> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.
>
> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
> not a 3/8 like we all use.
>
> t
>

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully
bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope.

I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the
pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one?

I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE
FOR A NEW NUT?



Regards
Frank

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the
>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric
>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is less
>than 500, so something is incomplete....
>
>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd
>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2
>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose
>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool.
>
>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it is
>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to the
>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, too.
>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that.
>
>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they fit
>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would
>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a jackstand.
>
>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry.
>
>Mike
>
>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost.t alkaboutautos.com...
>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
>> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
>> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
>> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
>> just broken some tools.
>>
>> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
>> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
>> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
>> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
>> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.
>>
>> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
>> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
>> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
>> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
>> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
>> not a 3/8 like we all use.
>>
>> t
>>
>

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully
bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope.

I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the
pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one?

I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE
FOR A NEW NUT?



Regards
Frank

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the
>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric
>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is less
>than 500, so something is incomplete....
>
>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd
>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2
>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose
>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool.
>
>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it is
>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to the
>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, too.
>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that.
>
>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they fit
>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would
>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a jackstand.
>
>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry.
>
>Mike
>
>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost.t alkaboutautos.com...
>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
>> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
>> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
>> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
>> just broken some tools.
>>
>> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
>> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
>> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
>> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
>> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.
>>
>> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
>> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
>> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
>> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
>> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
>> not a 3/8 like we all use.
>>
>> t
>>
>

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

On 11/10/04 2:04 PM, in article
bbc9026d34930c13f76cc187d45e1425@loc...o utautos.com, "disallow"
<loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote:

> Interesting how the show to torque the crank pulley bolt in the
> shop manual (honda factory manual). They say to seat the bolt at 14
> ft-lbs,
> then mark it and the washer with a marker at 12 o clock. Then turn it
> until it is at 3 o clock. It would be kinda hard I'm thinking,
> since the crankshaft will turn a little when you are
> torquing it, but if you could use the embossing marks as
> a reference, it might work.
>
> t
>

Are you sure you are looking at the right bolt? My Factory manual says
torque to 180 lb-ft.

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

On 11/10/04 2:04 PM, in article
bbc9026d34930c13f76cc187d45e1425@loc...o utautos.com, "disallow"
<loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote:

> Interesting how the show to torque the crank pulley bolt in the
> shop manual (honda factory manual). They say to seat the bolt at 14
> ft-lbs,
> then mark it and the washer with a marker at 12 o clock. Then turn it
> until it is at 3 o clock. It would be kinda hard I'm thinking,
> since the crankshaft will turn a little when you are
> torquing it, but if you could use the embossing marks as
> a reference, it might work.
>
> t
>

Are you sure you are looking at the right bolt? My Factory manual says
torque to 180 lb-ft.

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them
we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the
question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the
crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I
doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to
removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads.

Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't
tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through
the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the
impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it
to 90 at the tool.

Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect
to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver.

Mike

<aaa> wrote in message news:mub5p01bblo6qj32cjuki455u2453g4vqk@4ax.com...
>I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully
> bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope.
>
> I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the
> pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one?
>
> I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE
> FOR A NEW NUT?
>
>
>
> Regards
> Frank
>
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the
>>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric
>>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is
>>less
>>than 500, so something is incomplete....
>>
>>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd
>>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2
>>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose
>>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool.
>>
>>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it
>>is
>>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to
>>the
>>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface,
>>too.
>>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that.
>>
>>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they
>>fit
>>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would
>>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a
>>jackstand.
>>
>>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
>>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost. talkaboutautos.com...
>>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
>>> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
>>> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
>>> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
>>> just broken some tools.
>>>
>>> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
>>> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
>>> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
>>> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
>>> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.
>>>
>>> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
>>> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
>>> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
>>> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
>>> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
>>> not a 3/8 like we all use.
>>>
>>> t
>>>
>>
>

Re: my civic and its timing belt
 

The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them
we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the
question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the
crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I
doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to
removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads.

Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't
tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through
the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the
impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it
to 90 at the tool.

Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect
to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver.

Mike

<aaa> wrote in message news:mub5p01bblo6qj32cjuki455u2453g4vqk@4ax.com...
>I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully
> bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope.
>
> I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the
> pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one?
>
> I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE
> FOR A NEW NUT?
>
>
>
> Regards
> Frank
>
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the
>>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric
>>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is
>>less
>>than 500, so something is incomplete....
>>
>>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd
>>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2
>>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose
>>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool.
>>
>>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it
>>is
>>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to
>>the
>>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface,
>>too.
>>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that.
>>
>>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they
>>fit
>>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would
>>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a
>>jackstand.
>>
>>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message
>>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost. talkaboutautos.com...
>>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and
>>> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker
>>> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank
>>> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have
>>> just broken some tools.
>>>
>>> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too
>>> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do
>>> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an
>>> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get
>>> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning.
>>>
>>> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at
>>> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big
>>> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the
>>> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I
>>> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose,
>>> not a 3/8 like we all use.
>>>
>>> t
>>>
>>
>