sludge
07-05-2006, 07:42 PM
#76
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'Dave apparently is the same poster who I recently noticed touting
> incorrect advice about anti-freeze usage in alt.rv. (along with his OT
> and unwanted Christian Fundamentalistic proselytizing) '
>
> REPLY: Had you bothered to really investigate that running straight
> distilled water makes an automotive engine cool better than a 50/50
> coolant solution....you would have found i was in fact, correct.
Yes, but coolant serves other purposes in addition to heat transfer.
And pure water isn't very good at corrosion protection, seal protection,
etc.
Matt
> 'Dave apparently is the same poster who I recently noticed touting
> incorrect advice about anti-freeze usage in alt.rv. (along with his OT
> and unwanted Christian Fundamentalistic proselytizing) '
>
> REPLY: Had you bothered to really investigate that running straight
> distilled water makes an automotive engine cool better than a 50/50
> coolant solution....you would have found i was in fact, correct.
Yes, but coolant serves other purposes in addition to heat transfer.
And pure water isn't very good at corrosion protection, seal protection,
etc.
Matt
07-05-2006, 07:47 PM
#77
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'It isn't the gunk that comes out that I care about, it is the gunk that
> is loosened up and doesn't come out. I stand by my claim that these
> treatments are not necessary, at best cause no harm, and at worst can
> ruin your engine.'
>
> REPLY: Have you actually seen the Bilstein Flush Machine in operation
> by a trained person ? If not, then you should refrain from denouncing
> it until you have seen it in operation and have some conclusive
> emphirical evidence to accurately report on . Lastly, what is your
> basis for assuming that the sludge doesnt come out ?
I've been an engineer for 23 years and I paid my way through engineering
school working as a diesel mechanic, truck driver and logger for nearly
7 years. I've seen Detroit diesels with sludge an inch thick in spots
and carbon a half inch thick (nearly closed off the transfer ports in
the cylinders). This caused no ill affects at all other than power loss
from the carbon deposits. This engine had nearly 10,000 hours on it.
Even if the machine removed every bit of sludge and caused no harm at
all, the point is that is also doesn't help any so it is money wasted.
Nobody can see inside your engine so having it spotless makes no difference.
Do you own stock in this company?
Matt
> 'It isn't the gunk that comes out that I care about, it is the gunk that
> is loosened up and doesn't come out. I stand by my claim that these
> treatments are not necessary, at best cause no harm, and at worst can
> ruin your engine.'
>
> REPLY: Have you actually seen the Bilstein Flush Machine in operation
> by a trained person ? If not, then you should refrain from denouncing
> it until you have seen it in operation and have some conclusive
> emphirical evidence to accurately report on . Lastly, what is your
> basis for assuming that the sludge doesnt come out ?
I've been an engineer for 23 years and I paid my way through engineering
school working as a diesel mechanic, truck driver and logger for nearly
7 years. I've seen Detroit diesels with sludge an inch thick in spots
and carbon a half inch thick (nearly closed off the transfer ports in
the cylinders). This caused no ill affects at all other than power loss
from the carbon deposits. This engine had nearly 10,000 hours on it.
Even if the machine removed every bit of sludge and caused no harm at
all, the point is that is also doesn't help any so it is money wasted.
Nobody can see inside your engine so having it spotless makes no difference.
Do you own stock in this company?
Matt
07-05-2006, 07:47 PM
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'It isn't the gunk that comes out that I care about, it is the gunk that
> is loosened up and doesn't come out. I stand by my claim that these
> treatments are not necessary, at best cause no harm, and at worst can
> ruin your engine.'
>
> REPLY: Have you actually seen the Bilstein Flush Machine in operation
> by a trained person ? If not, then you should refrain from denouncing
> it until you have seen it in operation and have some conclusive
> emphirical evidence to accurately report on . Lastly, what is your
> basis for assuming that the sludge doesnt come out ?
I've been an engineer for 23 years and I paid my way through engineering
school working as a diesel mechanic, truck driver and logger for nearly
7 years. I've seen Detroit diesels with sludge an inch thick in spots
and carbon a half inch thick (nearly closed off the transfer ports in
the cylinders). This caused no ill affects at all other than power loss
from the carbon deposits. This engine had nearly 10,000 hours on it.
Even if the machine removed every bit of sludge and caused no harm at
all, the point is that is also doesn't help any so it is money wasted.
Nobody can see inside your engine so having it spotless makes no difference.
Do you own stock in this company?
Matt
> 'It isn't the gunk that comes out that I care about, it is the gunk that
> is loosened up and doesn't come out. I stand by my claim that these
> treatments are not necessary, at best cause no harm, and at worst can
> ruin your engine.'
>
> REPLY: Have you actually seen the Bilstein Flush Machine in operation
> by a trained person ? If not, then you should refrain from denouncing
> it until you have seen it in operation and have some conclusive
> emphirical evidence to accurately report on . Lastly, what is your
> basis for assuming that the sludge doesnt come out ?
I've been an engineer for 23 years and I paid my way through engineering
school working as a diesel mechanic, truck driver and logger for nearly
7 years. I've seen Detroit diesels with sludge an inch thick in spots
and carbon a half inch thick (nearly closed off the transfer ports in
the cylinders). This caused no ill affects at all other than power loss
from the carbon deposits. This engine had nearly 10,000 hours on it.
Even if the machine removed every bit of sludge and caused no harm at
all, the point is that is also doesn't help any so it is money wasted.
Nobody can see inside your engine so having it spotless makes no difference.
Do you own stock in this company?
Matt
07-05-2006, 07:47 PM
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'It isn't the gunk that comes out that I care about, it is the gunk that
> is loosened up and doesn't come out. I stand by my claim that these
> treatments are not necessary, at best cause no harm, and at worst can
> ruin your engine.'
>
> REPLY: Have you actually seen the Bilstein Flush Machine in operation
> by a trained person ? If not, then you should refrain from denouncing
> it until you have seen it in operation and have some conclusive
> emphirical evidence to accurately report on . Lastly, what is your
> basis for assuming that the sludge doesnt come out ?
I've been an engineer for 23 years and I paid my way through engineering
school working as a diesel mechanic, truck driver and logger for nearly
7 years. I've seen Detroit diesels with sludge an inch thick in spots
and carbon a half inch thick (nearly closed off the transfer ports in
the cylinders). This caused no ill affects at all other than power loss
from the carbon deposits. This engine had nearly 10,000 hours on it.
Even if the machine removed every bit of sludge and caused no harm at
all, the point is that is also doesn't help any so it is money wasted.
Nobody can see inside your engine so having it spotless makes no difference.
Do you own stock in this company?
Matt
> 'It isn't the gunk that comes out that I care about, it is the gunk that
> is loosened up and doesn't come out. I stand by my claim that these
> treatments are not necessary, at best cause no harm, and at worst can
> ruin your engine.'
>
> REPLY: Have you actually seen the Bilstein Flush Machine in operation
> by a trained person ? If not, then you should refrain from denouncing
> it until you have seen it in operation and have some conclusive
> emphirical evidence to accurately report on . Lastly, what is your
> basis for assuming that the sludge doesnt come out ?
I've been an engineer for 23 years and I paid my way through engineering
school working as a diesel mechanic, truck driver and logger for nearly
7 years. I've seen Detroit diesels with sludge an inch thick in spots
and carbon a half inch thick (nearly closed off the transfer ports in
the cylinders). This caused no ill affects at all other than power loss
from the carbon deposits. This engine had nearly 10,000 hours on it.
Even if the machine removed every bit of sludge and caused no harm at
all, the point is that is also doesn't help any so it is money wasted.
Nobody can see inside your engine so having it spotless makes no difference.
Do you own stock in this company?
Matt
07-05-2006, 07:49 PM
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
I'll put my technical background against yours any day of the week.
What are your credentials? I have two BS degrees, am completing a
masters at present and am a licensed professional engineer in NY state
(and you can look that up on their web site if you don't believe me).
OK, your turn.
Matt
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
I'll put my technical background against yours any day of the week.
What are your credentials? I have two BS degrees, am completing a
masters at present and am a licensed professional engineer in NY state
(and you can look that up on their web site if you don't believe me).
OK, your turn.
Matt
07-05-2006, 07:49 PM
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
I'll put my technical background against yours any day of the week.
What are your credentials? I have two BS degrees, am completing a
masters at present and am a licensed professional engineer in NY state
(and you can look that up on their web site if you don't believe me).
OK, your turn.
Matt
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
I'll put my technical background against yours any day of the week.
What are your credentials? I have two BS degrees, am completing a
masters at present and am a licensed professional engineer in NY state
(and you can look that up on their web site if you don't believe me).
OK, your turn.
Matt
07-05-2006, 07:49 PM
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
I'll put my technical background against yours any day of the week.
What are your credentials? I have two BS degrees, am completing a
masters at present and am a licensed professional engineer in NY state
(and you can look that up on their web site if you don't believe me).
OK, your turn.
Matt
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
I'll put my technical background against yours any day of the week.
What are your credentials? I have two BS degrees, am completing a
masters at present and am a licensed professional engineer in NY state
(and you can look that up on their web site if you don't believe me).
OK, your turn.
Matt
07-05-2006, 10:09 PM
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
>
OK, I viewed the web site. I'm now even more convinced this is simply
another way to separate people from their money. The before and after
pictures are particularly telling. There is a lot of stuff remaining in
the after picture. For a real comparison, they should have also showed
a new oil pan and oil pickup (at least that is what I think was in the
picture). Then you could see how much stuff remains. Also, when an
engine is running, it slings oil everywhere. Ever see a high-speed
camera shot inside the crankcase of a running engine? I have and the
oil is flying everywhere. The flush system, from what is shows on the
web site graphic, is running fluid in and letting it drain back to the
crankcase and then suctioning it out. The suggests that most of the
engine is going to be cleaned as the oil only flows back through the oil
passages. It isn't covering the entire inside of the engine the way the
oil is when the engine is running.
In the end, all of this is irrelevant anyway as the sludge has virtually
no effect on the operation of the engine. Even the "data" they show,
was showing improvements that likely aren't even statistically
significant. 1-3% is in the noise level of most measurement techniques.
An engine on a dyno can experience a 1% change in torque from morning
to afternoon must from temperature and humidity changes. To claim that
a 1% difference was due to this flush is simply hogwash.
However, as has been often said "there's one born every minute" so these
folks will probably get lots of business with their scare tactics. I
wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this magic
machine?
Matt
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
>
OK, I viewed the web site. I'm now even more convinced this is simply
another way to separate people from their money. The before and after
pictures are particularly telling. There is a lot of stuff remaining in
the after picture. For a real comparison, they should have also showed
a new oil pan and oil pickup (at least that is what I think was in the
picture). Then you could see how much stuff remains. Also, when an
engine is running, it slings oil everywhere. Ever see a high-speed
camera shot inside the crankcase of a running engine? I have and the
oil is flying everywhere. The flush system, from what is shows on the
web site graphic, is running fluid in and letting it drain back to the
crankcase and then suctioning it out. The suggests that most of the
engine is going to be cleaned as the oil only flows back through the oil
passages. It isn't covering the entire inside of the engine the way the
oil is when the engine is running.
In the end, all of this is irrelevant anyway as the sludge has virtually
no effect on the operation of the engine. Even the "data" they show,
was showing improvements that likely aren't even statistically
significant. 1-3% is in the noise level of most measurement techniques.
An engine on a dyno can experience a 1% change in torque from morning
to afternoon must from temperature and humidity changes. To claim that
a 1% difference was due to this flush is simply hogwash.
However, as has been often said "there's one born every minute" so these
folks will probably get lots of business with their scare tactics. I
wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this magic
machine?
Matt
07-05-2006, 10:09 PM
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
>
OK, I viewed the web site. I'm now even more convinced this is simply
another way to separate people from their money. The before and after
pictures are particularly telling. There is a lot of stuff remaining in
the after picture. For a real comparison, they should have also showed
a new oil pan and oil pickup (at least that is what I think was in the
picture). Then you could see how much stuff remains. Also, when an
engine is running, it slings oil everywhere. Ever see a high-speed
camera shot inside the crankcase of a running engine? I have and the
oil is flying everywhere. The flush system, from what is shows on the
web site graphic, is running fluid in and letting it drain back to the
crankcase and then suctioning it out. The suggests that most of the
engine is going to be cleaned as the oil only flows back through the oil
passages. It isn't covering the entire inside of the engine the way the
oil is when the engine is running.
In the end, all of this is irrelevant anyway as the sludge has virtually
no effect on the operation of the engine. Even the "data" they show,
was showing improvements that likely aren't even statistically
significant. 1-3% is in the noise level of most measurement techniques.
An engine on a dyno can experience a 1% change in torque from morning
to afternoon must from temperature and humidity changes. To claim that
a 1% difference was due to this flush is simply hogwash.
However, as has been often said "there's one born every minute" so these
folks will probably get lots of business with their scare tactics. I
wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this magic
machine?
Matt
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
>
OK, I viewed the web site. I'm now even more convinced this is simply
another way to separate people from their money. The before and after
pictures are particularly telling. There is a lot of stuff remaining in
the after picture. For a real comparison, they should have also showed
a new oil pan and oil pickup (at least that is what I think was in the
picture). Then you could see how much stuff remains. Also, when an
engine is running, it slings oil everywhere. Ever see a high-speed
camera shot inside the crankcase of a running engine? I have and the
oil is flying everywhere. The flush system, from what is shows on the
web site graphic, is running fluid in and letting it drain back to the
crankcase and then suctioning it out. The suggests that most of the
engine is going to be cleaned as the oil only flows back through the oil
passages. It isn't covering the entire inside of the engine the way the
oil is when the engine is running.
In the end, all of this is irrelevant anyway as the sludge has virtually
no effect on the operation of the engine. Even the "data" they show,
was showing improvements that likely aren't even statistically
significant. 1-3% is in the noise level of most measurement techniques.
An engine on a dyno can experience a 1% change in torque from morning
to afternoon must from temperature and humidity changes. To claim that
a 1% difference was due to this flush is simply hogwash.
However, as has been often said "there's one born every minute" so these
folks will probably get lots of business with their scare tactics. I
wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this magic
machine?
Matt
07-05-2006, 10:09 PM
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
Dave in Lake Villa wrote:
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
>
OK, I viewed the web site. I'm now even more convinced this is simply
another way to separate people from their money. The before and after
pictures are particularly telling. There is a lot of stuff remaining in
the after picture. For a real comparison, they should have also showed
a new oil pan and oil pickup (at least that is what I think was in the
picture). Then you could see how much stuff remains. Also, when an
engine is running, it slings oil everywhere. Ever see a high-speed
camera shot inside the crankcase of a running engine? I have and the
oil is flying everywhere. The flush system, from what is shows on the
web site graphic, is running fluid in and letting it drain back to the
crankcase and then suctioning it out. The suggests that most of the
engine is going to be cleaned as the oil only flows back through the oil
passages. It isn't covering the entire inside of the engine the way the
oil is when the engine is running.
In the end, all of this is irrelevant anyway as the sludge has virtually
no effect on the operation of the engine. Even the "data" they show,
was showing improvements that likely aren't even statistically
significant. 1-3% is in the noise level of most measurement techniques.
An engine on a dyno can experience a 1% change in torque from morning
to afternoon must from temperature and humidity changes. To claim that
a 1% difference was due to this flush is simply hogwash.
However, as has been often said "there's one born every minute" so these
folks will probably get lots of business with their scare tactics. I
wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this magic
machine?
Matt
> 'DId you do it with the Bilstien ENgine Flush Machine which
> pumps heated solvent thru the oil filter spindle, fills up the block oil
> passages with the solvent letting it sit for 15 minutes , then
> circulates fresh solvent thru at 45 psi while the old solvent comes out
> of the Oil Pan and across filters in the Machine which are visible ? Ive
> personally witnessed this being done on two of my high mileage vehicles
> and i change oil with filter at 3 k. miles using synthetic oil and high
> performance oil filter. Its worth it to do about every 40 k miles if its
> done with this specific Machine.
>
> Let me guess. After you do this, you get 10% better fuel mileage, your
> engine has 20 more HP, it runs quieter, starts better and stops faster.
> Did I miss anything?
> Matt '
>
> REPLY: You should not be listened to Matt since you come to the table
> with an unsupportable preconcieved bias in many instances ; you
> denounce this particular Engine Flush procedure without even having
> first hand knowledge or personal experience with it. At least go to
> their website and come up to speed on the Machine, how it works, its
> benefits, et al...instead of offering a conclusion based on personal
> bias.
>
OK, I viewed the web site. I'm now even more convinced this is simply
another way to separate people from their money. The before and after
pictures are particularly telling. There is a lot of stuff remaining in
the after picture. For a real comparison, they should have also showed
a new oil pan and oil pickup (at least that is what I think was in the
picture). Then you could see how much stuff remains. Also, when an
engine is running, it slings oil everywhere. Ever see a high-speed
camera shot inside the crankcase of a running engine? I have and the
oil is flying everywhere. The flush system, from what is shows on the
web site graphic, is running fluid in and letting it drain back to the
crankcase and then suctioning it out. The suggests that most of the
engine is going to be cleaned as the oil only flows back through the oil
passages. It isn't covering the entire inside of the engine the way the
oil is when the engine is running.
In the end, all of this is irrelevant anyway as the sludge has virtually
no effect on the operation of the engine. Even the "data" they show,
was showing improvements that likely aren't even statistically
significant. 1-3% is in the noise level of most measurement techniques.
An engine on a dyno can experience a 1% change in torque from morning
to afternoon must from temperature and humidity changes. To claim that
a 1% difference was due to this flush is simply hogwash.
However, as has been often said "there's one born every minute" so these
folks will probably get lots of business with their scare tactics. I
wonder how cars have operated so well for 100 years without this magic
machine?
Matt
07-06-2006, 07:45 PM
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
'I hope this isn't an attempt to prove me wrong, Dave. While I support
Christian morals, I also support tolerance of others up to the point
where they begin to tread on my individual rights.'
REPLY: H.T. , Yes...I can agree with this too. However, I support
taking a stand against the very things which are sending this country
down the moral sewer also ; I think its encumbant upon all of us who
know right from wrong and who care about this Country to do so. I trust
you feel the same way as its ok to be intolerant toward things which
ruin an entire nation. Regards.
Christian morals, I also support tolerance of others up to the point
where they begin to tread on my individual rights.'
REPLY: H.T. , Yes...I can agree with this too. However, I support
taking a stand against the very things which are sending this country
down the moral sewer also ; I think its encumbant upon all of us who
know right from wrong and who care about this Country to do so. I trust
you feel the same way as its ok to be intolerant toward things which
ruin an entire nation. Regards.
07-06-2006, 07:45 PM
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
'I hope this isn't an attempt to prove me wrong, Dave. While I support
Christian morals, I also support tolerance of others up to the point
where they begin to tread on my individual rights.'
REPLY: H.T. , Yes...I can agree with this too. However, I support
taking a stand against the very things which are sending this country
down the moral sewer also ; I think its encumbant upon all of us who
know right from wrong and who care about this Country to do so. I trust
you feel the same way as its ok to be intolerant toward things which
ruin an entire nation. Regards.
Christian morals, I also support tolerance of others up to the point
where they begin to tread on my individual rights.'
REPLY: H.T. , Yes...I can agree with this too. However, I support
taking a stand against the very things which are sending this country
down the moral sewer also ; I think its encumbant upon all of us who
know right from wrong and who care about this Country to do so. I trust
you feel the same way as its ok to be intolerant toward things which
ruin an entire nation. Regards.
07-06-2006, 07:45 PM
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
'I hope this isn't an attempt to prove me wrong, Dave. While I support
Christian morals, I also support tolerance of others up to the point
where they begin to tread on my individual rights.'
REPLY: H.T. , Yes...I can agree with this too. However, I support
taking a stand against the very things which are sending this country
down the moral sewer also ; I think its encumbant upon all of us who
know right from wrong and who care about this Country to do so. I trust
you feel the same way as its ok to be intolerant toward things which
ruin an entire nation. Regards.
Christian morals, I also support tolerance of others up to the point
where they begin to tread on my individual rights.'
REPLY: H.T. , Yes...I can agree with this too. However, I support
taking a stand against the very things which are sending this country
down the moral sewer also ; I think its encumbant upon all of us who
know right from wrong and who care about this Country to do so. I trust
you feel the same way as its ok to be intolerant toward things which
ruin an entire nation. Regards.
07-06-2006, 07:49 PM
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
'Yes, but coolant serves other purposes in addition to heat transfer.
And pure water isn't very good at corrosion protection, seal protection,
etc.
Matt'
REPLY: True. Which is why i had also mentioned in the particular RV post
thread i made in that Forum , that a corrosion inhibitor was required in
conjunction with the 100% distilled water . This assumes NO A/C is on
the car also , as, with straight water, it is possible to freeze up the
heating coil (with stagnant water only in it) since it is downstream of
the A/C's evaporator. With A/C, at least a 25% coolant to 75% water is
advisable .
And pure water isn't very good at corrosion protection, seal protection,
etc.
Matt'
REPLY: True. Which is why i had also mentioned in the particular RV post
thread i made in that Forum , that a corrosion inhibitor was required in
conjunction with the 100% distilled water . This assumes NO A/C is on
the car also , as, with straight water, it is possible to freeze up the
heating coil (with stagnant water only in it) since it is downstream of
the A/C's evaporator. With A/C, at least a 25% coolant to 75% water is
advisable .
07-06-2006, 07:49 PM
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: sludge
'Yes, but coolant serves other purposes in addition to heat transfer.
And pure water isn't very good at corrosion protection, seal protection,
etc.
Matt'
REPLY: True. Which is why i had also mentioned in the particular RV post
thread i made in that Forum , that a corrosion inhibitor was required in
conjunction with the 100% distilled water . This assumes NO A/C is on
the car also , as, with straight water, it is possible to freeze up the
heating coil (with stagnant water only in it) since it is downstream of
the A/C's evaporator. With A/C, at least a 25% coolant to 75% water is
advisable .
And pure water isn't very good at corrosion protection, seal protection,
etc.
Matt'
REPLY: True. Which is why i had also mentioned in the particular RV post
thread i made in that Forum , that a corrosion inhibitor was required in
conjunction with the 100% distilled water . This assumes NO A/C is on
the car also , as, with straight water, it is possible to freeze up the
heating coil (with stagnant water only in it) since it is downstream of
the A/C's evaporator. With A/C, at least a 25% coolant to 75% water is
advisable .