NewsView

Matt Whiting wrote:

Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks
about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental
document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from
cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.

Matt


Well, you are right about that, Matt. It is in my glove compartment.
But my car is - where else? - in service for over a week! I can't
get to it now, hence the question about arbitration. Really, I don't
think these mechanical problems are rocket science, otherwise I would
have done this a long time ago. Heck, I know it isn't easy to read
about this C-R-A-P. It isn't easy to write it either. Kinda puts a
person in a bad mood (so you see where I am coming from now). You
seemed a little blunt in some of your replies, and it did put me off a
bit because I don't know you (you might be a nice guy, but I can't tell
from this side of the computer except by the sort of of things you
write). Still, I also see that you are trying to help. So I really
appreciate that. Have a good evening, Matt.

NewsView

> NewsView wrote:
>
> > Hi Matt,
> >
> > On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the
> > other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my
> > already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain
> > the following?
> >
> > First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual
> > cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners
> > manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is
> > the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to
> > withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in
> > snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't
> > want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.
>
> Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil
> to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should
> be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be
> recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you
> car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long
> before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn.
>
>
> > I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in
> > my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might
> > have different specs if they are permitting that range in their
> > engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic
> > lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
> > that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
> > most of the service advisors I deal with.
>
> Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post
> that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives
> to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should
> wear out at the same time.
>
>
> > Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one
> > says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at
> > startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain
> > off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using
> > 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since
> > bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in
> > terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp
> > weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also,
> > how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise
> > started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still
> > contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to
> > 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart
> > - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.
>
> I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was
> simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to
> take Hyundai to arbitration.
>
>
>
> > As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop
> > for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and
> > picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20
> > minutes later the engine noise is gone.
>
> You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go
> driving.
>
>
> > Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny
> > that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without
> > success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them?
> > They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer
> > perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient
> > with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of
> > constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning
> > bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within
> > the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).
>
> I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I
> suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem.
>
>
> > As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
> > me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
> > factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
> > records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
> > is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
> > asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
> > - though not lemon law - might still be an option.
>
> Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks
> about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental
> document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from
> cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.
>
> Matt

NewsView

Matt Whiting wrote:

Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks
about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental
document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from
cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.

Matt


Well, you are right about that, Matt. It is in my glove compartment.
But my car is - where else? - in service for over a week! I can't
get to it now, hence the question about arbitration. Really, I don't
think these mechanical problems are rocket science, otherwise I would
have done this a long time ago. Heck, I know it isn't easy to read
about this C-R-A-P. It isn't easy to write it either. Kinda puts a
person in a bad mood (so you see where I am coming from now). You
seemed a little blunt in some of your replies, and it did put me off a
bit because I don't know you (you might be a nice guy, but I can't tell
from this side of the computer except by the sort of of things you
write). Still, I also see that you are trying to help. So I really
appreciate that. Have a good evening, Matt.

NewsView

> NewsView wrote:
>
> > Hi Matt,
> >
> > On the one hand, I appreciate your attempt to jump in and help. On the
> > other hand, why assume I haven't done my homework - need I make my
> > already thorough post twice as long to cover all the basis to explain
> > the following?
> >
> > First, I would't be here if I hadn't read the owner's manual
> > cover-to-cover. I also have the Haynes guide, too. Plus, my owners
> > manual says that 10/40 is within range for my car, AND the dealer is
> > the one putting it into my engine! This oil is the only one rated to
> > withstand the harsh heat of my geographic area. I wouldn't use 10/40 in
> > snow country, but I don't live in snow country. Likewise, you don't
> > want 5W oil in 120 degree heat in parts of the desert Southwest.
>
> Sorry, it didn't sound like you were sure on the correct viscosity oil
> to use. If the owner's manual lists 10W40 as an option, then you should
> be fine warranty-wise. I'm surprised that Hyundai would still be
> recommending 10W40 as late as 2001 (I think that is what you said you
> car was) given that GM and others found serious problems with it long
> before that. Maybe Hyundai was a little slower to learn.
>
>
> > I've had people tell me to use 5W30, but that's not even mentioned in
> > my owner's manual. So I have to assume that the newer Elantras might
> > have different specs if they are permitting that range in their
> > engines. (I have the engine with the shims and not the newer hydraulic
> > lifter engine.) Last but not least, I had an immediate family member
> > that owned an auto shop in the '80s. So I know more auto jargon than
> > most of the service advisors I deal with.
>
> Knowing jargon means nothing. It didn't appear from your original post
> that you knew much about cars given that you were trying oil additives
> to combat detonation and you believed that front and rear brakes should
> wear out at the same time.
>
>
> > Oil preferences cut both ways. There are two schools of thought - one
> > says if you use lighter weight oil it coats the lifters more quickly at
> > startup. The other says if you use heavier weight oil it won't drain
> > off the lifters so fast. At delivery the car and the dealer was using
> > 10/30 but I bumped up to 10/40 in response to this problem. I've since
> > bounced between the two and haven't noticed any real difference in
> > terms of engine noise (except that the rattle is worse in cool and damp
> > weather whereas in hot, dry weather it is much less pronounced). Also,
> > how do you assume my problem is sludge build up given that the noise
> > started when the car had only about 150-300 miles on it and still
> > contained the original factory oil? Just the same, I would be open to
> > 5W30 but my owner's manual doesn't even list that weight on the chart
> > - so no, I have no interest in voiding the warranty.
>
> I made no assumption that sludge was the cause of the problem. I was
> simply hoping that you hadn't voided your warranty if you had plans to
> take Hyundai to arbitration.
>
>
>
> > As for how I accelerate - easy. I stop for a light. Accelerate. Stop
> > for another light. Accelerate. The noise stops at the stop sign and
> > picks up again when my foot is back on the gas pedal. Between 10-20
> > minutes later the engine noise is gone.
>
> You said 10-12 minutes of acceleration, not 10-20 minutes of stop and go
> driving.
>
>
> > Remember, I pointed out that the corporate rep didn't even try to deny
> > that there is a problem - he heard it and tried to fix it without
> > success. If you are going to call someone on the carpet, why not them?
> > They're supposed to be the experts - wheras from a consumer
> > perspective I've gone above and beyond the call of duty to be patient
> > with the dealer and to self educate myself so that I can be of
> > constructive use to them as opposed to screaming, yelling or burning
> > bridges (which is what most people in my shoes would have done within
> > the first two years let alone five years of this nonsense).
>
> I'm not calling anyone on the carpet. My you are thin-skinned. I
> suggested trying a different dealer if this one can't find the problem.
>
>
> > As for lemon law, my question isn't about lemon law. It is too late for
> > me to file a Lemon Law claim. BUT since there is still a 10-year
> > factory warranty in effect - and all these things are on the service
> > records dating back to Day One - my hope is that perhaps arbitration
> > is still open to me. So my question at the outset of this thread simply
> > asks if anyone reading my post can vouch for the idea that arbitration
> > - though not lemon law - might still be an option.
>
> Usually there is either a section in your owner's manual that talks
> about arbitration and when it can be invoked or in a supplemental
> document that comes with the car. If you've read all of these from
> cover-to-cover, then you shouldn't need to ask that question here.
>
> Matt

Tom

Hi Matt,

That is interesting and enlightening info about the oil, but I didn't read
anything about sludge. I can understand that they put more additives in the
oil to get the wider from 10 to 40 and those 'polymers' could
seperate out, maybe. I think the manufacturers say they would void the
warrantee if used is because they don't list it as an option in 'most' cases
for newer cars (but not all, as I pointed out). I imagine that the newer
engines with tighter tolerances achievable from better machining cut down on
clearances and the higher viscosities wouldn't flow as well without a lot of
backpressure, hence the need for lower viscosities. I think the older cars
that called for 10W40 as an option would still be fine with that grade
because of the tolerances built in to the engine. Basically, what I read
tells me newer engines call for lower viscosities but that nothing is
actually wrong with 10W40 oil, in general. It says to follow your
manufacturer's recommendations for that model.


"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:O3sIg.785$Db4.98494@news1.epix.net...
> Tom wrote:
>
>> Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
>> questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree
>> with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear
>> front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on
>> braking so that's where all the wear is.
>> AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to
>> DO IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly.
>>
>> As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade
>> causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an
>> hour searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers
>> went to lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and
>> Z4's still recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the
>> original poster. I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage
>> and never had sludge problems when I pulled them down or removed the
>> valve covers.
>
> Look at about the 8th paragraph down.
> http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
>
> I can't find the GM recommendation on the net either, but I clearly
> remember them coming out with a recommendation to discontinue the use of
> 10W-40 and threatening to void warranties if its use was continued. Wide
> viscosity range oils just don't stand up as well as narrow ranges. And for
> high temp use, I'd use a synthetic anyway.
>
>
> Matt

Tom

Hi Matt,

That is interesting and enlightening info about the oil, but I didn't read
anything about sludge. I can understand that they put more additives in the
oil to get the wider from 10 to 40 and those 'polymers' could
seperate out, maybe. I think the manufacturers say they would void the
warrantee if used is because they don't list it as an option in 'most' cases
for newer cars (but not all, as I pointed out). I imagine that the newer
engines with tighter tolerances achievable from better machining cut down on
clearances and the higher viscosities wouldn't flow as well without a lot of
backpressure, hence the need for lower viscosities. I think the older cars
that called for 10W40 as an option would still be fine with that grade
because of the tolerances built in to the engine. Basically, what I read
tells me newer engines call for lower viscosities but that nothing is
actually wrong with 10W40 oil, in general. It says to follow your
manufacturer's recommendations for that model.


"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:O3sIg.785$Db4.98494@news1.epix.net...
> Tom wrote:
>
>> Let's not turn this into another 'pissing contest'. The guy asked some
>> questions and took the pains to explain in detail his problems. I agree
>> with Matt that I've never had a car in 45 years that had equal brake wear
>> front and rear. All the weight is transferred to the front end on
>> braking so that's where all the wear is.
>> AND Mike is right that the best way to find out about arbitration is to
>> DO IT, if you feel that your problem has not been addressed properly.
>>
>> As for the 10W40 issue, I've never heard of a problem with that grade
>> causing sludge. I'd love to see reference to that problem. I spent an
>> hour searching for anything on the net and just found that manufacturers
>> went to lower viscosity oils to boost their MPG figures. BMW Z1, Z3, and
>> Z4's still recommend 10W40 as well as others as pointed out by the
>> original poster. I've used it for many years on cars with more mileage
>> and never had sludge problems when I pulled them down or removed the
>> valve covers.
>
> Look at about the 8th paragraph down.
> http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
>
> I can't find the GM recommendation on the net either, but I clearly
> remember them coming out with a recommendation to discontinue the use of
> 10W-40 and threatening to void warranties if its use was continued. Wide
> viscosity range oils just don't stand up as well as narrow ranges. And for
> high temp use, I'd use a synthetic anyway.
>
>
> Matt

Mike Marlow

"NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156730000.251694.53860@b28g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>
> RE: Mike
>
> Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally
> trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing
> about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to
> everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim
> though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years
> ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work
> or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience
> directly to the company president!!!!!

Whatever - I simply responded to a public post your authored. You came in
here thumping your chest about all the jargon you know. Maybe you should be
a bit more careful what you post.

>
> Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman -

I'll bet everyone you meet in life owes you something...

> You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just
> "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first
> diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated
> guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread?
> Are you up to the challenge?

Not really. I help out in this forum when I can and more often in others,
but I don't like your attitude so I'll hapily sit back and watch you go
through your tantrums and fits.

>
> FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who
> advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and
> rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say
> I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the
> mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).

Apparently he does not. As was pointed out to you, the 10% margin is pure
hogwash.

>
> FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for
> the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks.

Nobody disagreed with that at all.


>
> I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear
> brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that
> it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and
> ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon,
> Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at
> roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If
> you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a
> stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I
> have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their
> employees haven't stooped THAT low).

When you get on a roll you just run off, don't you. Next time you might
consider authoring something that makes sense though.

>
> In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything
> more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS
> problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for
> the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since
> I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.
>

Do yourself a favor and get rid of the car since obviously nodody knows
anything about cars and nobody will ever be able to fix yours.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Mike Marlow

"NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156730000.251694.53860@b28g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>
> RE: Mike
>
> Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally
> trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing
> about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to
> everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim
> though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years
> ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work
> or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience
> directly to the company president!!!!!

Whatever - I simply responded to a public post your authored. You came in
here thumping your chest about all the jargon you know. Maybe you should be
a bit more careful what you post.

>
> Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman -

I'll bet everyone you meet in life owes you something...

> You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just
> "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first
> diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated
> guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread?
> Are you up to the challenge?

Not really. I help out in this forum when I can and more often in others,
but I don't like your attitude so I'll hapily sit back and watch you go
through your tantrums and fits.

>
> FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who
> advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and
> rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say
> I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the
> mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).

Apparently he does not. As was pointed out to you, the 10% margin is pure
hogwash.

>
> FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for
> the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks.

Nobody disagreed with that at all.


>
> I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear
> brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that
> it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and
> ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon,
> Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at
> roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If
> you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a
> stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I
> have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their
> employees haven't stooped THAT low).

When you get on a roll you just run off, don't you. Next time you might
consider authoring something that makes sense though.

>
> In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything
> more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS
> problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for
> the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since
> I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.
>

Do yourself a favor and get rid of the car since obviously nodody knows
anything about cars and nobody will ever be able to fix yours.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

dbltap

It looks to me as if NewsView hit the nail on the head in diagnosing you
"Mr. Marlow"


"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:cbd30$44f3447d$471fbb8f$9189@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> "NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156730000.251694.53860@b28g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>>
>> RE: Mike
>>
>> Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally
>> trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing
>> about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to
>> everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim
>> though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years
>> ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work
>> or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience
>> directly to the company president!!!!!
>
> Whatever - I simply responded to a public post your authored. You came in
> here thumping your chest about all the jargon you know. Maybe you should
> be
> a bit more careful what you post.
>
>>
>> Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman -
>
> I'll bet everyone you meet in life owes you something...
>
>> You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just
>> "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first
>> diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated
>> guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread?
>> Are you up to the challenge?
>
> Not really. I help out in this forum when I can and more often in others,
> but I don't like your attitude so I'll hapily sit back and watch you go
> through your tantrums and fits.
>
>>
>> FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who
>> advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and
>> rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say
>> I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the
>> mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).
>
> Apparently he does not. As was pointed out to you, the 10% margin is pure
> hogwash.
>
>>
>> FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for
>> the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks.
>
> Nobody disagreed with that at all.
>
>
>>
>> I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear
>> brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that
>> it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and
>> ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon,
>> Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at
>> roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If
>> you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a
>> stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I
>> have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their
>> employees haven't stooped THAT low).
>
> When you get on a roll you just run off, don't you. Next time you might
> consider authoring something that makes sense though.
>
>>
>> In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything
>> more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS
>> problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for
>> the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since
>> I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.
>>
>
> Do yourself a favor and get rid of the car since obviously nodody knows
> anything about cars and nobody will ever be able to fix yours.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
>
>

dbltap

It looks to me as if NewsView hit the nail on the head in diagnosing you
"Mr. Marlow"


"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:cbd30$44f3447d$471fbb8f$9189@ALLTEL.NET...
>
> "NewsView" <newsview@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156730000.251694.53860@b28g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...
>>
>> RE: Mike
>>
>> Whoa, Mike. I gotta be honest: I'm not sure if you were intentionally
>> trying to scare me off by brashly claiming I know virtually nothing
>> about my car, or if you make it your practice to be that "direct" to
>> everyone you "meet" on this newsgroup. Funny you make that claim
>> though. I guess "knowing squatt about cars" is why I was hired years
>> ago by a car dealership to call all the customers who had warranty work
>> or repairs to see if they were happy and to report their experience
>> directly to the company president!!!!!
>
> Whatever - I simply responded to a public post your authored. You came in
> here thumping your chest about all the jargon you know. Maybe you should
> be
> a bit more careful what you post.
>
>>
>> Now if you have any kind of conscience, Mike, you'll be a gentleman -
>
> I'll bet everyone you meet in life owes you something...
>
>> You can dish it out. Can you take it? If you REALLY know more than just
>> "jargon" yourself, prove it to me. Pop Quiz: What is the first
>> diagnostic or test you would run and why? What is your best educated
>> guess or explanation for the problems I've described in this thread?
>> Are you up to the challenge?
>
> Not really. I help out in this forum when I can and more often in others,
> but I don't like your attitude so I'll hapily sit back and watch you go
> through your tantrums and fits.
>
>>
>> FACT # 1: I HAVE TALKED to an independent mechanic, whom I trust, who
>> advises me that having a 50 percent discrepancy between the front and
>> rear brake wear may suggest a PROBLEM (I point this out because you say
>> I understand nothing about brakes - so are you going to say that the
>> mechanic I consulted is ALSO full of BS. too?).
>
> Apparently he does not. As was pointed out to you, the 10% margin is pure
> hogwash.
>
>>
>> FACT # 2: A DEALER SERVICE ADVISOR admitted that it is NOT typical for
>> the rear brakes to wear quite this fast compared to the front breaks.
>
> Nobody disagreed with that at all.
>
>
>>
>> I'm not afraid to give credit where it is due. Yes, sometimes the rear
>> brakes DO wear out first on some cars (duh!). But does this mean that
>> it is NOT good mechanical practice to inspect the braking system and
>> ABS to rule out the possibility of a co-contributing factor? C'mon,
>> Mike, PLEASE don't tell me that when the rear brake pads to wear out at
>> roughly DOUBLE THE RATE as the front brakes, that it is "normal." If
>> you start talking like that, it would make you sound like a
>> stereotypical blame-the-idiot-customer-at-all-costs type (although I
>> have to give my dealership credit where it is deserved - even their
>> employees haven't stooped THAT low).
>
> When you get on a roll you just run off, don't you. Next time you might
> consider authoring something that makes sense though.
>
>>
>> In closing, if my particular dealer service department knew anything
>> more than I do about this persistent engine noise and rear brake/ABS
>> problem, I wouldn't be HAVING these problems drag on like this. So for
>> the last time: The dealer has had my car in the shop for 50 days since
>> I bought it. If that doesn't speak for itself than nothing will.
>>
>
> Do yourself a favor and get rid of the car since obviously nodody knows
> anything about cars and nobody will ever be able to fix yours.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
>
>

hyundaitech

Since you've put bullet points in, I'm going to answer them inline to help
keep everything organized.

>=B7 An acceleration rattle started around 150->300 miles and is growing
>worse with time

>=B7 This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place >under acceleration and
>low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either >goes away or engine
>noise drowns it out).

The frog-in-throat description makes me wonder if the air box is not
sealed, and you're hearing the resonation from the air box. Make sure the
air filter seals against the upper and lower portions of the air box and
that it is properly put together.

>=B7 I hear no abnormal engine noise when >completely stopped at a light.

>=B7 This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 >minutes in duration, whereas
>it used to last less than 5 minutes.

>=B7 The noise is worse when engine is cold or >car was previously driven
>roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.

This leads me to believe it may be some sort of clearance issue inside the
engine. Every once in a while, I see one of these engines with a loose
timing chain. Yes, you have one. It's inside the valve cover. The
timing belt drives one cam, and the other cam is driven off a chain from
the first cam. I doubt this is your noise, though. It's usually apparent
standing in front of the vehicle while it's idling, no matter what the
temperature.

>=B7 The sound seems louder in cool/damp >weather ?[winter fuel
blend????]

More likely, this is because of better noise transmittance in colder
weather (shrinking weatherstrips and such) due to thermal
expansion/contraction.

>=B7 It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer >weather [summe fuel
>blend????]

Fuel blend shouldn't have any effect on engine noise, unless the octane is
too low.

>=B7 Gas brand and octane rating makes no >difference [that I can tell]

This probably means that it's not spark knock.

>=B7 I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the >car only makes about
>20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or >so).

There are enough things that change in two years that this is probably not
meaningful.

>=B7 Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM >Spark Plugs with NKGs
>(same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled >though there is less
>than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to >last 100,000 miles (but
>car is 5yrs old so could this still >be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
>deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the >engine rattle or ping
>in the first place.

Technically, the plugs are to be replaced at 60k miles or 4 years,
whichever comes first. Personally, I don't see why plugs should need to
be replaced on a time interval. Bad gas will leave carbon deposits. But
so will good gas. The difference is in the amount of deposits. If you'd
really had a bad gas issue, I'd expect you to have experienced a
performance issue or check engine lamp.

>=B7 I've never seen a CEL entire time I've >owned the car. Beginning to
>think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the >computer since there is a
>problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a >check engine light.
>Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy >that if a check engine
>light isn't on, there is no problem. On the >other hand, everyone who
>has heard the problem doesn't deny it
>(including the corporate rep).

If one of the sensors weren't talking to the computer, you'd definitely
have a check engine lamp. The computer would see that it isn't getting
the information it's looking for. That said, no check engine lamp doesn't
equate no problem. I worked on a car last week that needed an oxygen
sensor but wasn't setting any diagnostic codes.

The fact that the check engine lamp doesn't illuminate means that the
computer finds everything it sees believable. Even so, there are many
mechanical things the computer cannot detect. I'd suspect this noise is
one of those things.

>=B7 Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem >include: Heat sheild
>"tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech >tells me in 2001). Dealer
>finally agrees to measure valve clearance
>(first one in 2002 normal,
>second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one >conducted the very next day
>by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). >Next told that I am
>hearing lifters and this is a normal sound >until oil gets from pan to
>lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that >lasts about a minute at
>startup whereas the other noise seems to be >related to acceleration).
>Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep >checked my car's thrust
>washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no >problem found (NPF).
>Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to >Exhaust Manifold recall:
>Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so >they did NOT replace
>exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a >year ago - no change or
>improvement on noise.

It sounds to me like the dealer doesn't know where the noise is
originating. Presuming this noise is readily duplicable, I'm nut certain
why the range of things they've checked is so broad. It'd seem that they
could narrow the scope much better than they've done. Then again, I
haven't heard the noise either. Compared to someone who actually has the
vehicle present, I'm just some dummy on the internet.

If the lifters are noisy, it's not normal. Period. Like you've
mentioned, you have solid lifters. They don't need to pump up. And trust
me when I say that they keep a coating of oil on them. I've had cylinder
heads off cars for a couple weeks at times. And guess what? When I
started work again there was still oil on the lifters (and all the other
oiled components that I hadn't cleaned). The reason hydraulic lifters
sometimes make noise when the vehicle sits over a period of time is that
there is always pressure on at least two lifters, which may push some oil
back out of them. In this case, it can take a few seconds to a few
minutes to repressurize the hydraulic lifters. But again, this is an
impossible issue to have on this car.

The exhaust manifold idea is plausible. I've seen cases where exhaust
manifolds or gaskets leaked when cold and it sounded remarkably like
lifter tap.

The mount idea is doubtful. Shouldn't be affected by amount of time car
sits. Of course, you already know that since they've replaced it to no
avail.

>=B7 What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried >higher octane (a few
>years back - didn't notice an improvement). >Tried gas additive -
>injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only >resulted in rough idle
>and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil >instead of 10/30, which is
>what the dealer uses at oil changes.

The higher octane deal pretty much kills the spark knock idea. If you've
tried a tank of premium with no change, chances are near zero it's spark
knock.

Based on what's been discussed, I don't think it's an oiling issue. Feel
free to use 10W30 or 10W40 as your preferences dictate.

>Based upon what I've been told about the >condition of my spark plugs
>- despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds >like a case of
>"spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock >sensor that the car's
>computer doesn't receive valid data from or a >sticky valve lifter or
>bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that >a rattle or pinging type
>sound in the engine can come from the timing >belt tensioner. It IS true
>that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping >from under the plastic
>cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory?

I think the carbon deposits could be resulting from the short trips I
suspect you take (30k in 5 years) or were left in large part by the
additive that made your car not run properly. If you think you've got
deposits on the valves, GM top engine cleaner is a good mechanism to
attack this. They make an aerosol that you can spray into the throttle
body, making servicing vehicles like yours simple.

If you had a sticky lifter or valve guide, that should hold the valve open
and cause a misfire. The computer should see this and set a check engine
lamp. Similarly, you should detect the misfire and power loss when you
drive.

If the timing belt is too loose, it can vibrate against the plastic cover.
I've seen this before, but not on this engine. But it does tend to sound
like a "frog in the throat."

>=B7 I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. >Almost since Day One I hear
>the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which >oddly enough sounds
>almost like someone stuck in the trunk and >pounding lower right side of
>the car body with a fist!

This could be caused by rear rotor nonparallelism or by varying friction
on the rotor surface. People who drive their vehicles little (like you)
tend to experience this more frequently because the rotors are more
susceptible to rusting.

>There are two things that bring on the thumping >sound:

>=B7 Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too >lightly on the pedal -
>in which case if I let up or stomp down harder >the thumping noises
>disappear.

You hear the thumping when the vehicle is not moving at all? Hopefully
that wasn't what was meant. If not, refer back to what I wrote above.

>=B7 Second, I sometimes hear the same noise >after I first pull into my
>driveway, put the car into park and pull up the >emergency brake. It
>goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on >the driveway or
>sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.

>=B7 The dealer has been unable to reproduce the >noise and so they have
>done little or no diagnostic work.

Have you offered to take them on a test drive to show them? If it happens
only after the car sits overnight, leave it there and come back the next
morning to show them.

>=B7 Last week I had my car in for an oil change >and now the dealer says
>my rear brakes are in need of replacement but >not the front. A year ago
>I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 >percent remaining on the
>back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on >the rear of the car (but
>they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) >The dealer wants me to
>pay for rear brakes even though they admit that >the front brake pads
>should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.

Yes, it is abnormal for the rear pads to wear faster than the front pads.
I've seen this happen for a variety of reasons: binding caliper, binding
brake cables, or rusting brake pad backing plates, the latter two of
reasonable frequency.

I'd recommend having a good look at the pads to see if the backing plates
are rusted. If so, they're likely binding in the caliper bracket.

I'd also recommend checking the rubber boots on the parking brake cables.
I've seen these break over time and allow water in the cable, developing
rust and causing binding.

>Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear->and-tear items and I
>should foot the bill. But based on a >conversation with an independent
>mechanic, I feel some or all of this should >fall under my warranty.
>Reason: The independent mechanic told me that >if there is more than 10
>percent discrepancy between the wear on the >front and rear brake pads
>- which is true in my case - than there is a >possibility that
>something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in >when it should not be
>and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. >As stated, I've been
>hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent >basis for years and it
>is on record at my dealer that I've complained >of it. So who should
>pay? For that matter, what could cause disc >brakes to do this? Could
>the rotor be warped? What else might cause this >noise?

Unless there's some warrantable issue causing the brakes to wear out (such
as the parking brake cable within the 5/60 period), you have zero chance of
getting Hyundai to pay for the brake pads. Your car is five years old.
They won't extend a one year warranty to five.

Your independent mechanic doesn't know much about brakes if he thinks any
descrepancy between front and rear brakes is meaningful. Front and rear
brakes wear at different rates. That's the way it is. That's the way it
will always be. Laws of physics, you know.

It's doubtful the thumping is related to your pad wear. If you're within
the 5/60 warranty period, a rotor issue could be covered by your warranty.
But it won't cover rusting of the rotors.

>CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can >get!!!!!!!!!!

>My dealer can't seem to put two and two >together. Meanwhile, I've been
>visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get >a leg up or a helpful
>word of advice (which diagnostics to perform >and in what order, for
>example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come >across that seems to
>have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping >I that if you are one of
>them you can reply to this post (thank you!).

I find it troubling that the "engine" noise issue is so scattershot. If
you can speak to the rep without the dealer being present, ask if he
thinks it would be better to let another dealer have a shot. He'll know
how competent his dealers are. I'm really curious to know why the noise
cannot be better pinned down. Motor mounts. Heat shields. Solenoid
valves. Lifters. I'm left wondering if this noise is really readily
duplicable.

As to your arbitration, you're probably done. You'll need to check your
literature that came with the car. The procedure varies by state.

hyundaitech

Since you've put bullet points in, I'm going to answer them inline to help
keep everything organized.

>=B7 An acceleration rattle started around 150->300 miles and is growing
>worse with time

>=B7 This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place >under acceleration and
>low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either >goes away or engine
>noise drowns it out).

The frog-in-throat description makes me wonder if the air box is not
sealed, and you're hearing the resonation from the air box. Make sure the
air filter seals against the upper and lower portions of the air box and
that it is properly put together.

>=B7 I hear no abnormal engine noise when >completely stopped at a light.

>=B7 This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 >minutes in duration, whereas
>it used to last less than 5 minutes.

>=B7 The noise is worse when engine is cold or >car was previously driven
>roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.

This leads me to believe it may be some sort of clearance issue inside the
engine. Every once in a while, I see one of these engines with a loose
timing chain. Yes, you have one. It's inside the valve cover. The
timing belt drives one cam, and the other cam is driven off a chain from
the first cam. I doubt this is your noise, though. It's usually apparent
standing in front of the vehicle while it's idling, no matter what the
temperature.

>=B7 The sound seems louder in cool/damp >weather ?[winter fuel
blend????]

More likely, this is because of better noise transmittance in colder
weather (shrinking weatherstrips and such) due to thermal
expansion/contraction.

>=B7 It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer >weather [summe fuel
>blend????]

Fuel blend shouldn't have any effect on engine noise, unless the octane is
too low.

>=B7 Gas brand and octane rating makes no >difference [that I can tell]

This probably means that it's not spark knock.

>=B7 I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the >car only makes about
>20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or >so).

There are enough things that change in two years that this is probably not
meaningful.

>=B7 Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM >Spark Plugs with NKGs
>(same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled >though there is less
>than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to >last 100,000 miles (but
>car is 5yrs old so could this still >be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
>deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the >engine rattle or ping
>in the first place.

Technically, the plugs are to be replaced at 60k miles or 4 years,
whichever comes first. Personally, I don't see why plugs should need to
be replaced on a time interval. Bad gas will leave carbon deposits. But
so will good gas. The difference is in the amount of deposits. If you'd
really had a bad gas issue, I'd expect you to have experienced a
performance issue or check engine lamp.

>=B7 I've never seen a CEL entire time I've >owned the car. Beginning to
>think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the >computer since there is a
>problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a >check engine light.
>Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy >that if a check engine
>light isn't on, there is no problem. On the >other hand, everyone who
>has heard the problem doesn't deny it
>(including the corporate rep).

If one of the sensors weren't talking to the computer, you'd definitely
have a check engine lamp. The computer would see that it isn't getting
the information it's looking for. That said, no check engine lamp doesn't
equate no problem. I worked on a car last week that needed an oxygen
sensor but wasn't setting any diagnostic codes.

The fact that the check engine lamp doesn't illuminate means that the
computer finds everything it sees believable. Even so, there are many
mechanical things the computer cannot detect. I'd suspect this noise is
one of those things.

>=B7 Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem >include: Heat sheild
>"tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech >tells me in 2001). Dealer
>finally agrees to measure valve clearance
>(first one in 2002 normal,
>second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one >conducted the very next day
>by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). >Next told that I am
>hearing lifters and this is a normal sound >until oil gets from pan to
>lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that >lasts about a minute at
>startup whereas the other noise seems to be >related to acceleration).
>Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep >checked my car's thrust
>washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no >problem found (NPF).
>Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to >Exhaust Manifold recall:
>Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so >they did NOT replace
>exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a >year ago - no change or
>improvement on noise.

It sounds to me like the dealer doesn't know where the noise is
originating. Presuming this noise is readily duplicable, I'm nut certain
why the range of things they've checked is so broad. It'd seem that they
could narrow the scope much better than they've done. Then again, I
haven't heard the noise either. Compared to someone who actually has the
vehicle present, I'm just some dummy on the internet.

If the lifters are noisy, it's not normal. Period. Like you've
mentioned, you have solid lifters. They don't need to pump up. And trust
me when I say that they keep a coating of oil on them. I've had cylinder
heads off cars for a couple weeks at times. And guess what? When I
started work again there was still oil on the lifters (and all the other
oiled components that I hadn't cleaned). The reason hydraulic lifters
sometimes make noise when the vehicle sits over a period of time is that
there is always pressure on at least two lifters, which may push some oil
back out of them. In this case, it can take a few seconds to a few
minutes to repressurize the hydraulic lifters. But again, this is an
impossible issue to have on this car.

The exhaust manifold idea is plausible. I've seen cases where exhaust
manifolds or gaskets leaked when cold and it sounded remarkably like
lifter tap.

The mount idea is doubtful. Shouldn't be affected by amount of time car
sits. Of course, you already know that since they've replaced it to no
avail.

>=B7 What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried >higher octane (a few
>years back - didn't notice an improvement). >Tried gas additive -
>injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only >resulted in rough idle
>and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil >instead of 10/30, which is
>what the dealer uses at oil changes.

The higher octane deal pretty much kills the spark knock idea. If you've
tried a tank of premium with no change, chances are near zero it's spark
knock.

Based on what's been discussed, I don't think it's an oiling issue. Feel
free to use 10W30 or 10W40 as your preferences dictate.

>Based upon what I've been told about the >condition of my spark plugs
>- despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds >like a case of
>"spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock >sensor that the car's
>computer doesn't receive valid data from or a >sticky valve lifter or
>bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that >a rattle or pinging type
>sound in the engine can come from the timing >belt tensioner. It IS true
>that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping >from under the plastic
>cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory?

I think the carbon deposits could be resulting from the short trips I
suspect you take (30k in 5 years) or were left in large part by the
additive that made your car not run properly. If you think you've got
deposits on the valves, GM top engine cleaner is a good mechanism to
attack this. They make an aerosol that you can spray into the throttle
body, making servicing vehicles like yours simple.

If you had a sticky lifter or valve guide, that should hold the valve open
and cause a misfire. The computer should see this and set a check engine
lamp. Similarly, you should detect the misfire and power loss when you
drive.

If the timing belt is too loose, it can vibrate against the plastic cover.
I've seen this before, but not on this engine. But it does tend to sound
like a "frog in the throat."

>=B7 I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. >Almost since Day One I hear
>the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which >oddly enough sounds
>almost like someone stuck in the trunk and >pounding lower right side of
>the car body with a fist!

This could be caused by rear rotor nonparallelism or by varying friction
on the rotor surface. People who drive their vehicles little (like you)
tend to experience this more frequently because the rotors are more
susceptible to rusting.

>There are two things that bring on the thumping >sound:

>=B7 Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too >lightly on the pedal -
>in which case if I let up or stomp down harder >the thumping noises
>disappear.

You hear the thumping when the vehicle is not moving at all? Hopefully
that wasn't what was meant. If not, refer back to what I wrote above.

>=B7 Second, I sometimes hear the same noise >after I first pull into my
>driveway, put the car into park and pull up the >emergency brake. It
>goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on >the driveway or
>sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.

>=B7 The dealer has been unable to reproduce the >noise and so they have
>done little or no diagnostic work.

Have you offered to take them on a test drive to show them? If it happens
only after the car sits overnight, leave it there and come back the next
morning to show them.

>=B7 Last week I had my car in for an oil change >and now the dealer says
>my rear brakes are in need of replacement but >not the front. A year ago
>I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 >percent remaining on the
>back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on >the rear of the car (but
>they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) >The dealer wants me to
>pay for rear brakes even though they admit that >the front brake pads
>should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.

Yes, it is abnormal for the rear pads to wear faster than the front pads.
I've seen this happen for a variety of reasons: binding caliper, binding
brake cables, or rusting brake pad backing plates, the latter two of
reasonable frequency.

I'd recommend having a good look at the pads to see if the backing plates
are rusted. If so, they're likely binding in the caliper bracket.

I'd also recommend checking the rubber boots on the parking brake cables.
I've seen these break over time and allow water in the cable, developing
rust and causing binding.

>Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear->and-tear items and I
>should foot the bill. But based on a >conversation with an independent
>mechanic, I feel some or all of this should >fall under my warranty.
>Reason: The independent mechanic told me that >if there is more than 10
>percent discrepancy between the wear on the >front and rear brake pads
>- which is true in my case - than there is a >possibility that
>something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in >when it should not be
>and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. >As stated, I've been
>hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent >basis for years and it
>is on record at my dealer that I've complained >of it. So who should
>pay? For that matter, what could cause disc >brakes to do this? Could
>the rotor be warped? What else might cause this >noise?

Unless there's some warrantable issue causing the brakes to wear out (such
as the parking brake cable within the 5/60 period), you have zero chance of
getting Hyundai to pay for the brake pads. Your car is five years old.
They won't extend a one year warranty to five.

Your independent mechanic doesn't know much about brakes if he thinks any
descrepancy between front and rear brakes is meaningful. Front and rear
brakes wear at different rates. That's the way it is. That's the way it
will always be. Laws of physics, you know.

It's doubtful the thumping is related to your pad wear. If you're within
the 5/60 warranty period, a rotor issue could be covered by your warranty.
But it won't cover rusting of the rotors.

>CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can >get!!!!!!!!!!

>My dealer can't seem to put two and two >together. Meanwhile, I've been
>visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get >a leg up or a helpful
>word of advice (which diagnostics to perform >and in what order, for
>example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come >across that seems to
>have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping >I that if you are one of
>them you can reply to this post (thank you!).

I find it troubling that the "engine" noise issue is so scattershot. If
you can speak to the rep without the dealer being present, ask if he
thinks it would be better to let another dealer have a shot. He'll know
how competent his dealers are. I'm really curious to know why the noise
cannot be better pinned down. Motor mounts. Heat shields. Solenoid
valves. Lifters. I'm left wondering if this noise is really readily
duplicable.

As to your arbitration, you're probably done. You'll need to check your
literature that came with the car. The procedure varies by state.

Tom

That was an OUTSTANDING analysis of the problems 'from afar'. I wish I
could find someone like you at my dealerships!! Someone with that ability
to troubleshoot would be really a joy at the service rep counter, too!!!
Want to move to Georgia????

)

Tom

"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
news:ec44e6c67a44071d9cde1d5671d93682@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> Since you've put bullet points in, I'm going to answer them inline to help
> keep everything organized.
>
>>=B7 An acceleration rattle started around 150->300 miles and is growing
>>worse with time
>
>>=B7 This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place >under acceleration and
>>low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either >goes away or engine
>>noise drowns it out).
>
> The frog-in-throat description makes me wonder if the air box is not
> sealed, and you're hearing the resonation from the air box. Make sure the
> air filter seals against the upper and lower portions of the air box and
> that it is properly put together.
>
>>=B7 I hear no abnormal engine noise when >completely stopped at a light.
>
>>=B7 This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 >minutes in duration, whereas
>>it used to last less than 5 minutes.
>
>>=B7 The noise is worse when engine is cold or >car was previously driven
>>roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
>
> This leads me to believe it may be some sort of clearance issue inside the
> engine. Every once in a while, I see one of these engines with a loose
> timing chain. Yes, you have one. It's inside the valve cover. The
> timing belt drives one cam, and the other cam is driven off a chain from
> the first cam. I doubt this is your noise, though. It's usually apparent
> standing in front of the vehicle while it's idling, no matter what the
> temperature.
>
>>=B7 The sound seems louder in cool/damp >weather ?[winter fuel
> blend????]
>
> More likely, this is because of better noise transmittance in colder
> weather (shrinking weatherstrips and such) due to thermal
> expansion/contraction.
>
>>=B7 It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer >weather [summe fuel
>>blend????]
>
> Fuel blend shouldn't have any effect on engine noise, unless the octane is
> too low.
>
>>=B7 Gas brand and octane rating makes no >difference [that I can tell]
>
> This probably means that it's not spark knock.
>
>>=B7 I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the >car only makes about
>>20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or >so).
>
> There are enough things that change in two years that this is probably not
> meaningful.
>
>>=B7 Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM >Spark Plugs with NKGs
>>(same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled >though there is less
>>than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to >last 100,000 miles (but
>>car is 5yrs old so could this still >be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
>>deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the >engine rattle or ping
>>in the first place.
>
> Technically, the plugs are to be replaced at 60k miles or 4 years,
> whichever comes first. Personally, I don't see why plugs should need to
> be replaced on a time interval. Bad gas will leave carbon deposits. But
> so will good gas. The difference is in the amount of deposits. If you'd
> really had a bad gas issue, I'd expect you to have experienced a
> performance issue or check engine lamp.
>
>>=B7 I've never seen a CEL entire time I've >owned the car. Beginning to
>>think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the >computer since there is a
>>problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a >check engine light.
>>Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy >that if a check engine
>>light isn't on, there is no problem. On the >other hand, everyone who
>>has heard the problem doesn't deny it
>>(including the corporate rep).
>
> If one of the sensors weren't talking to the computer, you'd definitely
> have a check engine lamp. The computer would see that it isn't getting
> the information it's looking for. That said, no check engine lamp doesn't
> equate no problem. I worked on a car last week that needed an oxygen
> sensor but wasn't setting any diagnostic codes.
>
> The fact that the check engine lamp doesn't illuminate means that the
> computer finds everything it sees believable. Even so, there are many
> mechanical things the computer cannot detect. I'd suspect this noise is
> one of those things.
>
>>=B7 Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem >include: Heat sheild
>>"tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech >tells me in 2001). Dealer
>>finally agrees to measure valve clearance
>>(first one in 2002 normal,
>>second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one >conducted the very next day
>>by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). >Next told that I am
>>hearing lifters and this is a normal sound >until oil gets from pan to
>>lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that >lasts about a minute at
>>startup whereas the other noise seems to be >related to acceleration).
>>Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep >checked my car's thrust
>>washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no >problem found (NPF).
>>Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to >Exhaust Manifold recall:
>>Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so >they did NOT replace
>>exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a >year ago - no change or
>>improvement on noise.
>
> It sounds to me like the dealer doesn't know where the noise is
> originating. Presuming this noise is readily duplicable, I'm nut certain
> why the range of things they've checked is so broad. It'd seem that they
> could narrow the scope much better than they've done. Then again, I
> haven't heard the noise either. Compared to someone who actually has the
> vehicle present, I'm just some dummy on the internet.
>
> If the lifters are noisy, it's not normal. Period. Like you've
> mentioned, you have solid lifters. They don't need to pump up. And trust
> me when I say that they keep a coating of oil on them. I've had cylinder
> heads off cars for a couple weeks at times. And guess what? When I
> started work again there was still oil on the lifters (and all the other
> oiled components that I hadn't cleaned). The reason hydraulic lifters
> sometimes make noise when the vehicle sits over a period of time is that
> there is always pressure on at least two lifters, which may push some oil
> back out of them. In this case, it can take a few seconds to a few
> minutes to repressurize the hydraulic lifters. But again, this is an
> impossible issue to have on this car.
>
> The exhaust manifold idea is plausible. I've seen cases where exhaust
> manifolds or gaskets leaked when cold and it sounded remarkably like
> lifter tap.
>
> The mount idea is doubtful. Shouldn't be affected by amount of time car
> sits. Of course, you already know that since they've replaced it to no
> avail.
>
>>=B7 What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried >higher octane (a few
>>years back - didn't notice an improvement). >Tried gas additive -
>>injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only >resulted in rough idle
>>and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil >instead of 10/30, which is
>>what the dealer uses at oil changes.
>
> The higher octane deal pretty much kills the spark knock idea. If you've
> tried a tank of premium with no change, chances are near zero it's spark
> knock.
>
> Based on what's been discussed, I don't think it's an oiling issue. Feel
> free to use 10W30 or 10W40 as your preferences dictate.
>
>>Based upon what I've been told about the >condition of my spark plugs
>>- despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds >like a case of
>>"spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock >sensor that the car's
>>computer doesn't receive valid data from or a >sticky valve lifter or
>>bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that >a rattle or pinging type
>>sound in the engine can come from the timing >belt tensioner. It IS true
>>that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping >from under the plastic
>>cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory?
>
> I think the carbon deposits could be resulting from the short trips I
> suspect you take (30k in 5 years) or were left in large part by the
> additive that made your car not run properly. If you think you've got
> deposits on the valves, GM top engine cleaner is a good mechanism to
> attack this. They make an aerosol that you can spray into the throttle
> body, making servicing vehicles like yours simple.
>
> If you had a sticky lifter or valve guide, that should hold the valve open
> and cause a misfire. The computer should see this and set a check engine
> lamp. Similarly, you should detect the misfire and power loss when you
> drive.
>
> If the timing belt is too loose, it can vibrate against the plastic cover.
> I've seen this before, but not on this engine. But it does tend to sound
> like a "frog in the throat."
>
>>=B7 I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. >Almost since Day One I hear
>>the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which >oddly enough sounds
>>almost like someone stuck in the trunk and >pounding lower right side of
>>the car body with a fist!
>
> This could be caused by rear rotor nonparallelism or by varying friction
> on the rotor surface. People who drive their vehicles little (like you)
> tend to experience this more frequently because the rotors are more
> susceptible to rusting.
>
>>There are two things that bring on the thumping >sound:
>
>>=B7 Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too >lightly on the pedal -
>>in which case if I let up or stomp down harder >the thumping noises
>>disappear.
>
> You hear the thumping when the vehicle is not moving at all? Hopefully
> that wasn't what was meant. If not, refer back to what I wrote above.
>
>>=B7 Second, I sometimes hear the same noise >after I first pull into my
>>driveway, put the car into park and pull up the >emergency brake. It
>>goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on >the driveway or
>>sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.
>
>>=B7 The dealer has been unable to reproduce the >noise and so they have
>>done little or no diagnostic work.
>
> Have you offered to take them on a test drive to show them? If it happens
> only after the car sits overnight, leave it there and come back the next
> morning to show them.
>
>>=B7 Last week I had my car in for an oil change >and now the dealer says
>>my rear brakes are in need of replacement but >not the front. A year ago
>>I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 >percent remaining on the
>>back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on >the rear of the car (but
>>they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) >The dealer wants me to
>>pay for rear brakes even though they admit that >the front brake pads
>>should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.
>
> Yes, it is abnormal for the rear pads to wear faster than the front pads.
> I've seen this happen for a variety of reasons: binding caliper, binding
> brake cables, or rusting brake pad backing plates, the latter two of
> reasonable frequency.
>
> I'd recommend having a good look at the pads to see if the backing plates
> are rusted. If so, they're likely binding in the caliper bracket.
>
> I'd also recommend checking the rubber boots on the parking brake cables.
> I've seen these break over time and allow water in the cable, developing
> rust and causing binding.
>
>>Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear->and-tear items and I
>>should foot the bill. But based on a >conversation with an independent
>>mechanic, I feel some or all of this should >fall under my warranty.
>>Reason: The independent mechanic told me that >if there is more than 10
>>percent discrepancy between the wear on the >front and rear brake pads
>>- which is true in my case - than there is a >possibility that
>>something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in >when it should not be
>>and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. >As stated, I've been
>>hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent >basis for years and it
>>is on record at my dealer that I've complained >of it. So who should
>>pay? For that matter, what could cause disc >brakes to do this? Could
>>the rotor be warped? What else might cause this >noise?
>
> Unless there's some warrantable issue causing the brakes to wear out (such
> as the parking brake cable within the 5/60 period), you have zero chance
> of
> getting Hyundai to pay for the brake pads. Your car is five years old.
> They won't extend a one year warranty to five.
>
> Your independent mechanic doesn't know much about brakes if he thinks any
> descrepancy between front and rear brakes is meaningful. Front and rear
> brakes wear at different rates. That's the way it is. That's the way it
> will always be. Laws of physics, you know.
>
> It's doubtful the thumping is related to your pad wear. If you're within
> the 5/60 warranty period, a rotor issue could be covered by your warranty.
> But it won't cover rusting of the rotors.
>
>>CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can >get!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>My dealer can't seem to put two and two >together. Meanwhile, I've been
>>visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get >a leg up or a helpful
>>word of advice (which diagnostics to perform >and in what order, for
>>example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come >across that seems to
>>have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping >I that if you are one of
>>them you can reply to this post (thank you!).
>
> I find it troubling that the "engine" noise issue is so scattershot. If
> you can speak to the rep without the dealer being present, ask if he
> thinks it would be better to let another dealer have a shot. He'll know
> how competent his dealers are. I'm really curious to know why the noise
> cannot be better pinned down. Motor mounts. Heat shields. Solenoid
> valves. Lifters. I'm left wondering if this noise is really readily
> duplicable.
>
> As to your arbitration, you're probably done. You'll need to check your
> literature that came with the car. The procedure varies by state.
>

Tom

That was an OUTSTANDING analysis of the problems 'from afar'. I wish I
could find someone like you at my dealerships!! Someone with that ability
to troubleshoot would be really a joy at the service rep counter, too!!!
Want to move to Georgia????

)

Tom

"hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message
news:ec44e6c67a44071d9cde1d5671d93682@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> Since you've put bullet points in, I'm going to answer them inline to help
> keep everything organized.
>
>>=B7 An acceleration rattle started around 150->300 miles and is growing
>>worse with time
>
>>=B7 This frog-in-the-throat sound takes place >under acceleration and
>>low RPMS (up to about 40mph - then it either >goes away or engine
>>noise drowns it out).
>
> The frog-in-throat description makes me wonder if the air box is not
> sealed, and you're hearing the resonation from the air box. Make sure the
> air filter seals against the upper and lower portions of the air box and
> that it is properly put together.
>
>>=B7 I hear no abnormal engine noise when >completely stopped at a light.
>
>>=B7 This acceleration rattle lasts 10-20 >minutes in duration, whereas
>>it used to last less than 5 minutes.
>
>>=B7 The noise is worse when engine is cold or >car was previously driven
>>roughly 2-4 hours beforehand.
>
> This leads me to believe it may be some sort of clearance issue inside the
> engine. Every once in a while, I see one of these engines with a loose
> timing chain. Yes, you have one. It's inside the valve cover. The
> timing belt drives one cam, and the other cam is driven off a chain from
> the first cam. I doubt this is your noise, though. It's usually apparent
> standing in front of the vehicle while it's idling, no matter what the
> temperature.
>
>>=B7 The sound seems louder in cool/damp >weather ?[winter fuel
> blend????]
>
> More likely, this is because of better noise transmittance in colder
> weather (shrinking weatherstrips and such) due to thermal
> expansion/contraction.
>
>>=B7 It is not so obvious in hot, dry summer >weather [summe fuel
>>blend????]
>
> Fuel blend shouldn't have any effect on engine noise, unless the octane is
> too low.
>
>>=B7 Gas brand and octane rating makes no >difference [that I can tell]
>
> This probably means that it's not spark knock.
>
>>=B7 I have a 2mpg drop in fuel efficiency (the >car only makes about
>>20-21mpgs in city driving for past two years or >so).
>
> There are enough things that change in two years that this is probably not
> meaningful.
>
>>=B7 Just this past week: Dealer replaced OEM >Spark Plugs with NKGs
>>(same spec). Original plugs were carbon-fouled >though there is less
>>than 30K on odometer and these are supposed to >last 100,000 miles (but
>>car is 5yrs old so could this still >be "normal"?). Dealer blames carbon
>>deposits on bad gas, not on whatever causes the >engine rattle or ping
>>in the first place.
>
> Technically, the plugs are to be replaced at 60k miles or 4 years,
> whichever comes first. Personally, I don't see why plugs should need to
> be replaced on a time interval. Bad gas will leave carbon deposits. But
> so will good gas. The difference is in the amount of deposits. If you'd
> really had a bad gas issue, I'd expect you to have experienced a
> performance issue or check engine lamp.
>
>>=B7 I've never seen a CEL entire time I've >owned the car. Beginning to
>>think one or more sensors don't "talk" to the >computer since there is a
>>problem everyone can hear yet it never trips a >check engine light.
>>Dealer seems to be of the general philosophy >that if a check engine
>>light isn't on, there is no problem. On the >other hand, everyone who
>>has heard the problem doesn't deny it
>>(including the corporate rep).
>
> If one of the sensors weren't talking to the computer, you'd definitely
> have a check engine lamp. The computer would see that it isn't getting
> the information it's looking for. That said, no check engine lamp doesn't
> equate no problem. I worked on a car last week that needed an oxygen
> sensor but wasn't setting any diagnostic codes.
>
> The fact that the check engine lamp doesn't illuminate means that the
> computer finds everything it sees believable. Even so, there are many
> mechanical things the computer cannot detect. I'd suspect this noise is
> one of those things.
>
>>=B7 Dealer efforts to fix or explain problem >include: Heat sheild
>>"tightened". "Cold selenoids are noisy" (tech >tells me in 2001). Dealer
>>finally agrees to measure valve clearance
>>(first one in 2002 normal,
>>second one in 2004 "out of spec", final one >conducted the very next day
>>by Hyundai corporate rep finds "no problem"). >Next told that I am
>>hearing lifters and this is a normal sound >until oil gets from pan to
>>lifters (true, I hear lifter noise but that >lasts about a minute at
>>startup whereas the other noise seems to be >related to acceleration).
>>Little over a year ago this same Hyundai rep >checked my car's thrust
>>washer/bearing (no sign of metal debris, no >problem found (NPF).
>>Hyundai Customer Service Hotline alerts me to >Exhaust Manifold recall:
>>Dealer checked but finds no sign of cracks so >they did NOT replace
>>exhaust manifold. Motor mount replaced over a >year ago - no change or
>>improvement on noise.
>
> It sounds to me like the dealer doesn't know where the noise is
> originating. Presuming this noise is readily duplicable, I'm nut certain
> why the range of things they've checked is so broad. It'd seem that they
> could narrow the scope much better than they've done. Then again, I
> haven't heard the noise either. Compared to someone who actually has the
> vehicle present, I'm just some dummy on the internet.
>
> If the lifters are noisy, it's not normal. Period. Like you've
> mentioned, you have solid lifters. They don't need to pump up. And trust
> me when I say that they keep a coating of oil on them. I've had cylinder
> heads off cars for a couple weeks at times. And guess what? When I
> started work again there was still oil on the lifters (and all the other
> oiled components that I hadn't cleaned). The reason hydraulic lifters
> sometimes make noise when the vehicle sits over a period of time is that
> there is always pressure on at least two lifters, which may push some oil
> back out of them. In this case, it can take a few seconds to a few
> minutes to repressurize the hydraulic lifters. But again, this is an
> impossible issue to have on this car.
>
> The exhaust manifold idea is plausible. I've seen cases where exhaust
> manifolds or gaskets leaked when cold and it sounded remarkably like
> lifter tap.
>
> The mount idea is doubtful. Shouldn't be affected by amount of time car
> sits. Of course, you already know that since they've replaced it to no
> avail.
>
>>=B7 What I've done: Tried oil additive. Tried >higher octane (a few
>>years back - didn't notice an improvement). >Tried gas additive -
>>injector cleaner?-about two years ago (only >resulted in rough idle
>>and misfiring engine).Been using 10/40 oil >instead of 10/30, which is
>>what the dealer uses at oil changes.
>
> The higher octane deal pretty much kills the spark knock idea. If you've
> tried a tank of premium with no change, chances are near zero it's spark
> knock.
>
> Based on what's been discussed, I don't think it's an oiling issue. Feel
> free to use 10W30 or 10W40 as your preferences dictate.
>
>>Based upon what I've been told about the >condition of my spark plugs
>>- despite only 30K on the odometer - it sounds >like a case of
>>"spark knock". I suspect either a bad knock >sensor that the car's
>>computer doesn't receive valid data from or a >sticky valve lifter or
>>bad valve guide. I've also heard, though, that >a rattle or pinging type
>>sound in the engine can come from the timing >belt tensioner. It IS true
>>that when I lift the hood I hear some tapping >from under the plastic
>>cover. So can anyone vouch for that theory?
>
> I think the carbon deposits could be resulting from the short trips I
> suspect you take (30k in 5 years) or were left in large part by the
> additive that made your car not run properly. If you think you've got
> deposits on the valves, GM top engine cleaner is a good mechanism to
> attack this. They make an aerosol that you can spray into the throttle
> body, making servicing vehicles like yours simple.
>
> If you had a sticky lifter or valve guide, that should hold the valve open
> and cause a misfire. The computer should see this and set a check engine
> lamp. Similarly, you should detect the misfire and power loss when you
> drive.
>
> If the timing belt is too loose, it can vibrate against the plastic cover.
> I've seen this before, but not on this engine. But it does tend to sound
> like a "frog in the throat."
>
>>=B7 I have ABS and four-wheel disc brakes. >Almost since Day One I hear
>>the rear brake/wheel thumping at stops, which >oddly enough sounds
>>almost like someone stuck in the trunk and >pounding lower right side of
>>the car body with a fist!
>
> This could be caused by rear rotor nonparallelism or by varying friction
> on the rotor surface. People who drive their vehicles little (like you)
> tend to experience this more frequently because the rotors are more
> susceptible to rusting.
>
>>There are two things that bring on the thumping >sound:
>
>>=B7 Sitting at a stop with my foot resting too >lightly on the pedal -
>>in which case if I let up or stomp down harder >the thumping noises
>>disappear.
>
> You hear the thumping when the vehicle is not moving at all? Hopefully
> that wasn't what was meant. If not, refer back to what I wrote above.
>
>>=B7 Second, I sometimes hear the same noise >after I first pull into my
>>driveway, put the car into park and pull up the >emergency brake. It
>>goes on about 30 seconds and anyone standing on >the driveway or
>>sidewalk when it occurs can hear the sound too.
>
>>=B7 The dealer has been unable to reproduce the >noise and so they have
>>done little or no diagnostic work.
>
> Have you offered to take them on a test drive to show them? If it happens
> only after the car sits overnight, leave it there and come back the next
> morning to show them.
>
>>=B7 Last week I had my car in for an oil change >and now the dealer says
>>my rear brakes are in need of replacement but >not the front. A year ago
>>I had 50 percent remaining on the front and 30 >percent remaining on the
>>back brake pads. Now I have 20 percent left on >the rear of the car (but
>>they didn't tell me the figure on the front.) >The dealer wants me to
>>pay for rear brakes even though they admit that >the front brake pads
>>should wear out somewhat faster than the rears.
>
> Yes, it is abnormal for the rear pads to wear faster than the front pads.
> I've seen this happen for a variety of reasons: binding caliper, binding
> brake cables, or rusting brake pad backing plates, the latter two of
> reasonable frequency.
>
> I'd recommend having a good look at the pads to see if the backing plates
> are rusted. If so, they're likely binding in the caliper bracket.
>
> I'd also recommend checking the rubber boots on the parking brake cables.
> I've seen these break over time and allow water in the cable, developing
> rust and causing binding.
>
>>Normally, I would agree that brakes are wear->and-tear items and I
>>should foot the bill. But based on a >conversation with an independent
>>mechanic, I feel some or all of this should >fall under my warranty.
>>Reason: The independent mechanic told me that >if there is more than 10
>>percent discrepancy between the wear on the >front and rear brake pads
>>- which is true in my case - than there is a >possibility that
>>something is grabbing or the ABS is kicking in >when it should not be
>>and wearing down the rear brakes prematurely. >As stated, I've been
>>hearing this brake thumping on an intermittent >basis for years and it
>>is on record at my dealer that I've complained >of it. So who should
>>pay? For that matter, what could cause disc >brakes to do this? Could
>>the rotor be warped? What else might cause this >noise?
>
> Unless there's some warrantable issue causing the brakes to wear out (such
> as the parking brake cable within the 5/60 period), you have zero chance
> of
> getting Hyundai to pay for the brake pads. Your car is five years old.
> They won't extend a one year warranty to five.
>
> Your independent mechanic doesn't know much about brakes if he thinks any
> descrepancy between front and rear brakes is meaningful. Front and rear
> brakes wear at different rates. That's the way it is. That's the way it
> will always be. Laws of physics, you know.
>
> It's doubtful the thumping is related to your pad wear. If you're within
> the 5/60 warranty period, a rotor issue could be covered by your warranty.
> But it won't cover rusting of the rotors.
>
>>CONCLUSION - I need all the help I can >get!!!!!!!!!!
>
>>My dealer can't seem to put two and two >together. Meanwhile, I've been
>>visiting Hyundai forums for years to try to get >a leg up or a helpful
>>word of advice (which diagnostics to perform >and in what order, for
>>example). The only Hyundai discussion I've come >across that seems to
>>have REAL Hyundai techs is HERE, so I'm hoping >I that if you are one of
>>them you can reply to this post (thank you!).
>
> I find it troubling that the "engine" noise issue is so scattershot. If
> you can speak to the rep without the dealer being present, ask if he
> thinks it would be better to let another dealer have a shot. He'll know
> how competent his dealers are. I'm really curious to know why the noise
> cannot be better pinned down. Motor mounts. Heat shields. Solenoid
> valves. Lifters. I'm left wondering if this noise is really readily
> duplicable.
>
> As to your arbitration, you're probably done. You'll need to check your
> literature that came with the car. The procedure varies by state.
>

Matt Whiting

Tom wrote:

> That was an OUTSTANDING analysis of the problems 'from afar'. I wish I
> could find someone like you at my dealerships!! Someone with that ability
> to troubleshoot would be really a joy at the service rep counter, too!!!
> Want to move to Georgia????

I think hyundaitech is way too smart to do that! :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

Tom wrote:

> That was an OUTSTANDING analysis of the problems 'from afar'. I wish I
> could find someone like you at my dealerships!! Someone with that ability
> to troubleshoot would be really a joy at the service rep counter, too!!!
> Want to move to Georgia????

I think hyundaitech is way too smart to do that! :-)

Matt

hyundaitech

How 'bout I just visit for a week.