Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

On 23 Jul 2007 13:42:25 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>>In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>> fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>Unfortunately you're correct.
>>Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>>They said:
>>The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>>engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>>The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>>if their vehicles can burn it.
>
>All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>
>So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>--scott

That is the best argument for the amount that has been in gas for
years (in the Midwest). It also promotes complete combustion for
cleaner exhaust. Not sure how much is really required for those
purposes, though.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:28:26 -0400, Retired VIP <Jackj14321@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 23 Jul 2007 13:42:25 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>>>In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>>>engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>>>The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>>>if their vehicles can burn it.
>>
>>All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>>you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>>
>>So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>>substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>>to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>>--scott
>
>Yes, you're right about ethanol boosting the octane of gasoline. But
>when used to boost octane, the mix is 10% ethanol - 90% gasoline. That
>is the ratio used in most of the country. ADM, Cargil and the US
>farmer are pushing for 85% ethanol, called E85. That ratio will use
>more corn than was planted this year. It will cause food shortages in
>our country as well as the rest of the world. More acreage will be
>dedicated to corn for ethanol and less for food crops. Not only will
>the cost of your corn flakes go up but beef, pork, chicken, flour,
>bread and all dairy products will sky rocket in price.

The effect is already being seen. The price of your corn flakes will
probably go unnoticed in your family budget, but to poor people south
of the border, it is a serious problem. After NAFTA went into effect,
Latin American corn farmers were driven out of business by subsidized,
large-scale US agribusiness. Sure, the tortillas were cheaper, but
the money left the community and everyone suffered. Now poor have
gotten poorer and the tortillas cost more than ever.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:28:26 -0400, Retired VIP <Jackj14321@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 23 Jul 2007 13:42:25 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>>>In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>>>engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>>>The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>>>if their vehicles can burn it.
>>
>>All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>>you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>>
>>So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>>substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>>to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>>--scott
>
>Yes, you're right about ethanol boosting the octane of gasoline. But
>when used to boost octane, the mix is 10% ethanol - 90% gasoline. That
>is the ratio used in most of the country. ADM, Cargil and the US
>farmer are pushing for 85% ethanol, called E85. That ratio will use
>more corn than was planted this year. It will cause food shortages in
>our country as well as the rest of the world. More acreage will be
>dedicated to corn for ethanol and less for food crops. Not only will
>the cost of your corn flakes go up but beef, pork, chicken, flour,
>bread and all dairy products will sky rocket in price.

The effect is already being seen. The price of your corn flakes will
probably go unnoticed in your family budget, but to poor people south
of the border, it is a serious problem. After NAFTA went into effect,
Latin American corn farmers were driven out of business by subsidized,
large-scale US agribusiness. Sure, the tortillas were cheaper, but
the money left the community and everyone suffered. Now poor have
gotten poorer and the tortillas cost more than ever.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:28:26 -0400, Retired VIP <Jackj14321@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On 23 Jul 2007 13:42:25 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>>>In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>>>engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>>>The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>>>if their vehicles can burn it.
>>
>>All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>>you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>>
>>So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>>substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>>to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>>--scott
>
>Yes, you're right about ethanol boosting the octane of gasoline. But
>when used to boost octane, the mix is 10% ethanol - 90% gasoline. That
>is the ratio used in most of the country. ADM, Cargil and the US
>farmer are pushing for 85% ethanol, called E85. That ratio will use
>more corn than was planted this year. It will cause food shortages in
>our country as well as the rest of the world. More acreage will be
>dedicated to corn for ethanol and less for food crops. Not only will
>the cost of your corn flakes go up but beef, pork, chicken, flour,
>bread and all dairy products will sky rocket in price.

The effect is already being seen. The price of your corn flakes will
probably go unnoticed in your family budget, but to poor people south
of the border, it is a serious problem. After NAFTA went into effect,
Latin American corn farmers were driven out of business by subsidized,
large-scale US agribusiness. Sure, the tortillas were cheaper, but
the money left the community and everyone suffered. Now poor have
gotten poorer and the tortillas cost more than ever.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Just Facts wrote:
> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>
>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>> fat city.
>>
>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>
> Unfortunately you're correct.
> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
> They said:
> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
> if their vehicles can burn it.
> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
> getting to one for a fill.
> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.

no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more
money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Just Facts wrote:
> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>
>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>> fat city.
>>
>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>
> Unfortunately you're correct.
> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
> They said:
> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
> if their vehicles can burn it.
> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
> getting to one for a fill.
> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.

no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more
money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Just Facts wrote:
> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>
>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>> fat city.
>>
>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>
> Unfortunately you're correct.
> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
> They said:
> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
> if their vehicles can burn it.
> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
> getting to one for a fill.
> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.

no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more
money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>> fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>> if their vehicles can burn it.
>
> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.

so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.

>
> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
> to the environment and the people working with it than either.

the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
combustion products.

mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
the boardroom/bedroom connection.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>> fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>> if their vehicles can burn it.
>
> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.

so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.

>
> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
> to the environment and the people working with it than either.

the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
combustion products.

mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
the boardroom/bedroom connection.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Just Facts <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote:
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>> fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>> to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>> ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
>> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
>> if their vehicles can burn it.
>
> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.

so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.

>
> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
> to the environment and the people working with it than either.

the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
combustion products.

mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
the boardroom/bedroom connection.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Just Facts wrote:
> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>
>>Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>fat city.
>>
>>Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>
>
> Unfortunately you're correct.
> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
> They said:
> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
> if their vehicles can burn it.
> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
> getting to one for a fill.
> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.



Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle
east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico.

JT

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Just Facts wrote:
> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>
>>Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>fat city.
>>
>>Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>
>
> Unfortunately you're correct.
> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
> They said:
> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
> if their vehicles can burn it.
> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
> getting to one for a fill.
> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.



Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle
east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico.

JT

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Just Facts wrote:
> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>
>>Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting in
>>fat city.
>>
>>Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery prices
>>to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the family farms
>>ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>
>
> Unfortunately you're correct.
> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
> They said:
> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your IC
> engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage boast
> if their vehicles can burn it.
> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
> getting to one for a fill.
> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.



Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle
east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico.

JT

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

jim beam wrote:

> Just Facts wrote:
>
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>> in fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>> getting to one for a fill.
>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>
>
> no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more
> money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.


Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces
ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it.

BOHICA!!!

JT

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

jim beam wrote:

> Just Facts wrote:
>
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>> in fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>> getting to one for a fill.
>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>
>
> no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more
> money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.


Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces
ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it.

BOHICA!!!

JT