Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

jim beam wrote:

> Just Facts wrote:
>
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>> in fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>> getting to one for a fill.
>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>
>
> no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make more
> money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.


Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces
ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it.

BOHICA!!!

JT

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Just Facts wrote:
>>
>>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>>
>>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>>> in fat city.
>>>>
>>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>>> They said:
>>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with
>>> gasoline.
>>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>>> getting to one for a fill.
>>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>>
>>
>> no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make
>> more money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.
>
>
> Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces
> ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it.
>
> BOHICA!!!
>
> JT
>

and that's /after/ we subsidize the agricos to produce it and subsidize
the oilcos to use it!

we are the sheep. we are simply here to be fleeced.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Just Facts wrote:
>>
>>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>>
>>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>>> in fat city.
>>>>
>>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>>> They said:
>>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with
>>> gasoline.
>>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>>> getting to one for a fill.
>>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>>
>>
>> no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make
>> more money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.
>
>
> Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces
> ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it.
>
> BOHICA!!!
>
> JT
>

and that's /after/ we subsidize the agricos to produce it and subsidize
the oilcos to use it!

we are the sheep. we are simply here to be fleeced.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Just Facts wrote:
>>
>>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>>
>>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>>> in fat city.
>>>>
>>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>>> They said:
>>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with
>>> gasoline.
>>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>>> getting to one for a fill.
>>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>>
>>
>> no its not. it's about reducing overall mpg's so the oilco's make
>> more money /and/ supporting giant agricos into the bargain.
>
>
> Most people fail to pick up on the fact that no matter who produces
> ethanol, it still is big oil that gets to distribute and deliver it.
>
> BOHICA!!!
>
> JT
>

and that's /after/ we subsidize the agricos to produce it and subsidize
the oilcos to use it!

we are the sheep. we are simply here to be fleeced.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

>
>
> Just Facts wrote:
>
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>> in fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>> getting to one for a fill.
>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>
>
>
>
> Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle
> east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico.
>
> JT

Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get
quite a bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

>
>
> Just Facts wrote:
>
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>> in fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>> getting to one for a fill.
>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>
>
>
>
> Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle
> east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico.
>
> JT

Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get
quite a bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:

>
>
> Just Facts wrote:
>
>> In article <E4Voi.7999$iX3.862@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Oh gawd... Don't get me started on the ethenol scam.
>>>
>>> Of course if you have stock in Archer Daniels, you might be sitting
>>> in fat city.
>>>
>>> Ethanol..... Not only does it cost more to produce a gallon than it
>>> delivers in BTUs, diversion of corn production has caused grocery
>>> prices to skyrocket. And you can bet your bottom bippy that the
>>> family farms ain't cashin' in on the bonanza.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately you're correct.
>> Last year Consumers Reports had a very good article on this subject.
>> They said:
>> The Ethenol cost more than gasoline for the energy obtained and your
>> IC engine will produce only about 75% of the power it does with gasoline.
>> The vehicle manufacturers love it because they get a fuel mileage
>> boast if their vehicles can burn it.
>> Since there are very few Ethenol stations you may have to waste fuel
>> getting to one for a fill.
>> Ethenol is all about reducing oil imports from the Middle East.
>
>
>
>
> Actually, we import a relatively small amount of oil from the middle
> east. Most of our imports come from Venezuela, Canada and Mexico.
>
> JT

Most of the Canadian and South American oil is fuel oil. We get
quite a bit of our gasoline from oil from the MidEast.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>
>so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.

No, sadly it doesn't. Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which
isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern
engine.

For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the
required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and
they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing
head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster
than normal gasoline.

>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>> to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>
>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>combustion products.

Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.

>mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>the boardroom/bedroom connection.

Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>
>so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.

No, sadly it doesn't. Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which
isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern
engine.

For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the
required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and
they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing
head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster
than normal gasoline.

>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>> to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>
>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>combustion products.

Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.

>mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>the boardroom/bedroom connection.

Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>
>so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.

No, sadly it doesn't. Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which
isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern
engine.

For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the
required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and
they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing
head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster
than normal gasoline.

>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>> to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>
>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>combustion products.

Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.

>mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>the boardroom/bedroom connection.

Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>>combustion products.
>
> Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.
>
>>mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>>of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>>otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>>toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>>the boardroom/bedroom connection.
>
> Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.

It sounds like you're saying that we're well rid of lead because of the
toxicity, but proud to have ethanol because of its toxicity.

--
"Justice Thomas pointed out that the Constitution does not waive the rights
of the individual because an elite has decided its motives are pure."
-- Paul Greenberg

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>>combustion products.
>
> Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.
>
>>mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>>of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>>otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>>toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>>the boardroom/bedroom connection.
>
> Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.

It sounds like you're saying that we're well rid of lead because of the
toxicity, but proud to have ethanol because of its toxicity.

--
"Justice Thomas pointed out that the Constitution does not waive the rights
of the individual because an elite has decided its motives are pure."
-- Paul Greenberg

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>>us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>>combustion products.
>
> Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.
>
>>mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>>of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>>otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>>toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>>the boardroom/bedroom connection.
>
> Perhaps, but it works, and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.

It sounds like you're saying that we're well rid of lead because of the
toxicity, but proud to have ethanol because of its toxicity.

--
"Justice Thomas pointed out that the Constitution does not waive the rights
of the individual because an elite has decided its motives are pure."
-- Paul Greenberg

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>> so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.
>
> No, sadly it doesn't.

yes it does. but oilcos want to be able to sell the crap mixed in with
the good stuff, so they need to mix in octane modifiers.


> Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which
> isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern
> engine.

it depends on the content. see above.

>
> For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the
> required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and
> they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing
> head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster
> than normal gasoline.

ww2 aero engines are very different from modern auto engines. they had
very poor thermal control, poor combustion chamber design, poor mixture
control, etc. if design is bad, sure, you need to monkey with the fuel
content. but if the design is good and control is good, problem all but
disappears.


>
>>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>>> to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>> the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>> us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>> combustion products.
>
> Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.
>
>> mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>> of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>> otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>> toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>> the boardroom/bedroom connection.
>
> Perhaps, but it works,

"works" relative to what? it's not the only oxygenate out there. and
it poisons the sub-surface water aquifers like nobody's business. and
is persistent.

> and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.


lead salts are relatively stable and not very soluble.

Re: 100% Electric SUV From Phoenix Motorcars Recharges In 10 Minutes
 

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> All of this is true, BUT the good news is that adding ethanol to gas gives
>>> you an effective octane boost, without adding lead or MTBE.
>> so what? decent gasoline has sufficient octane properties too.
>
> No, sadly it doesn't.

yes it does. but oilcos want to be able to sell the crap mixed in with
the good stuff, so they need to mix in octane modifiers.


> Pure gasoline (well, as pure as gasoline gets, which
> isn't very pure) is much too prone to predetonation to use in a modern
> engine.

it depends on the content. see above.

>
> For high performance reciprocating aircraft engines back in WWII, the
> required octane rating was so high that even lead didn't do the job, and
> they wound up mixing gasoline with very, very light distillates (casing
> head). The stuff is a nightmare to work with, and evaporates much faster
> than normal gasoline.

ww2 aero engines are very different from modern auto engines. they had
very poor thermal control, poor combustion chamber design, poor mixture
control, etc. if design is bad, sure, you need to monkey with the fuel
content. but if the design is good and control is good, problem all but
disappears.


>
>>> So don't think of ethanol as a gasoline substitute, think of it as a
>>> substitute for MTBE or tetraethyl lead. And it's a WHOLE LOT friendlier
>>> to the environment and the people working with it than either.
>> the brazilians don't think so, and they have a lot more experience than
>> us. they have serious respiratory illness down there caused by ethanol
>> combustion products.
>
> Sure, and we have plenty of lead problems.
>
>> mtbe only became used because a certain govenor's wife was on the board
>> of a certain oilco whose refinery process produced large amounts of this
>> otherwise unwanted product. it was a stroke of oilco genius to label
>> toxic waste as "oxygenate" and get it mandated as an additive through
>> the boardroom/bedroom connection.
>
> Perhaps, but it works,

"works" relative to what? it's not the only oxygenate out there. and
it poisons the sub-surface water aquifers like nobody's business. and
is persistent.

> and lead turned out to have long-term toxicity issues.


lead salts are relatively stable and not very soluble.