Saab Complaint
#106
Guest
Posts: n/a
Saab Tire Complaint: Important
In article <eepmlv8pr2t2se5d9ul0d0vhuvto1l22fh@4ax.com>,
madyn@ix.netcom.com says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:55 GMT, Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:51:05 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Saab apparently doesn't know that. They equip all base 2000 9-3s
> >>with Michelins.
> >
> >I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening.
> >Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the
> >specifications are different.
>
> Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car,
> please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car.
I didn't see your post until just now.
I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base
9-3 coupe.
These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with
the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have
my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM
replacement tire.
The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March
at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.
The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely
500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where
freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I
usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I
don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's
stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.
******
> OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that
> this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new
> problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a
> particular run, as in the Firestone problems?
*******
Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes:
Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.
++++ ROAD DAMAGE
I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways.
Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I
believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my
driving habits caused the blowout.
++++ WHEEL RIMS
I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently
designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses
much pressure at all. Here is what happens:
1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to
flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver
could possibly notice.
2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This
brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.
3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt
comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire
loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and
weakens the sidewall.
3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost
always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim,
between the wheel rim edges.
4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls
come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant
ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at
that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But
that isn't all......
5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact
with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through
the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.
I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design
flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in
seconds.
This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire
manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.
I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire
on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not
much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this
underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process.
Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you
take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but
they will still be very high like this.
****
Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare
that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes
outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a
little flexing; you're in trouble.
Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often.
While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it
does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly
as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have
SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.
+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES
NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged
inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall
free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have
taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.
I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls
blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in
normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective
almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or
separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto
evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause
accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety
issue.
I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All
I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal
reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at
about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are
suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing
my tires.
When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire
dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because
they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too
much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that
they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a
very, very high number).
This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though --
But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In
the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary
service records on a National scale to establish this as a
product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product
safety issue, though.
> >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have
> >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover
> >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above.
> >>
> >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too.
> >
> >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is
> >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could
> >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the
> >Firestone problems?
> >
> You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to
> provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had.
> The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the
> "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin)
> for the 9.3 and the 9.5.
>
> Again, which tires did you have?
>
> Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A
> particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest
> of your tires would be identical.
I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing,
merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My
tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the
tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.
> If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that
> the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number
> and other data might be useful in trying to determine that.
Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants
to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It
has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them.
This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one*
wants to be involved.
mb
madyn@ix.netcom.com says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:55 GMT, Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:51:05 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Saab apparently doesn't know that. They equip all base 2000 9-3s
> >>with Michelins.
> >
> >I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening.
> >Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the
> >specifications are different.
>
> Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car,
> please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car.
I didn't see your post until just now.
I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base
9-3 coupe.
These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with
the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have
my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM
replacement tire.
The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March
at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.
The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely
500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where
freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I
usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I
don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's
stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.
******
> OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that
> this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new
> problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a
> particular run, as in the Firestone problems?
*******
Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes:
Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.
++++ ROAD DAMAGE
I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways.
Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I
believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my
driving habits caused the blowout.
++++ WHEEL RIMS
I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently
designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses
much pressure at all. Here is what happens:
1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to
flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver
could possibly notice.
2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This
brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.
3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt
comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire
loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and
weakens the sidewall.
3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost
always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim,
between the wheel rim edges.
4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls
come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant
ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at
that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But
that isn't all......
5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact
with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through
the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.
I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design
flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in
seconds.
This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire
manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.
I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire
on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not
much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this
underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process.
Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you
take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but
they will still be very high like this.
****
Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare
that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes
outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a
little flexing; you're in trouble.
Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often.
While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it
does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly
as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have
SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.
+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES
NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged
inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall
free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have
taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.
I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls
blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in
normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective
almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or
separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto
evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause
accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety
issue.
I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All
I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal
reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at
about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are
suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing
my tires.
When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire
dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because
they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too
much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that
they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a
very, very high number).
This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though --
But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In
the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary
service records on a National scale to establish this as a
product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product
safety issue, though.
> >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have
> >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover
> >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above.
> >>
> >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too.
> >
> >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is
> >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could
> >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the
> >Firestone problems?
> >
> You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to
> provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had.
> The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the
> "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin)
> for the 9.3 and the 9.5.
>
> Again, which tires did you have?
>
> Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A
> particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest
> of your tires would be identical.
I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing,
merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My
tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the
tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.
> If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that
> the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number
> and other data might be useful in trying to determine that.
Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants
to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It
has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them.
This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one*
wants to be involved.
mb
#107
Guest
Posts: n/a
Saab Tire Complaint: Important
In article <eepmlv8pr2t2se5d9ul0d0vhuvto1l22fh@4ax.com>,
madyn@ix.netcom.com says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:55 GMT, Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:51:05 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Saab apparently doesn't know that. They equip all base 2000 9-3s
> >>with Michelins.
> >
> >I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening.
> >Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the
> >specifications are different.
>
> Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car,
> please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car.
I didn't see your post until just now.
I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base
9-3 coupe.
These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with
the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have
my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM
replacement tire.
The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March
at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.
The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely
500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where
freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I
usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I
don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's
stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.
******
> OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that
> this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new
> problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a
> particular run, as in the Firestone problems?
*******
Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes:
Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.
++++ ROAD DAMAGE
I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways.
Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I
believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my
driving habits caused the blowout.
++++ WHEEL RIMS
I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently
designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses
much pressure at all. Here is what happens:
1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to
flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver
could possibly notice.
2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This
brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.
3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt
comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire
loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and
weakens the sidewall.
3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost
always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim,
between the wheel rim edges.
4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls
come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant
ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at
that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But
that isn't all......
5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact
with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through
the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.
I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design
flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in
seconds.
This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire
manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.
I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire
on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not
much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this
underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process.
Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you
take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but
they will still be very high like this.
****
Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare
that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes
outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a
little flexing; you're in trouble.
Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often.
While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it
does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly
as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have
SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.
+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES
NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged
inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall
free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have
taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.
I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls
blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in
normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective
almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or
separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto
evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause
accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety
issue.
I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All
I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal
reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at
about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are
suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing
my tires.
When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire
dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because
they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too
much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that
they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a
very, very high number).
This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though --
But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In
the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary
service records on a National scale to establish this as a
product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product
safety issue, though.
> >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have
> >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover
> >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above.
> >>
> >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too.
> >
> >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is
> >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could
> >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the
> >Firestone problems?
> >
> You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to
> provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had.
> The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the
> "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin)
> for the 9.3 and the 9.5.
>
> Again, which tires did you have?
>
> Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A
> particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest
> of your tires would be identical.
I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing,
merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My
tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the
tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.
> If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that
> the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number
> and other data might be useful in trying to determine that.
Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants
to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It
has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them.
This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one*
wants to be involved.
mb
madyn@ix.netcom.com says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:55 GMT, Harvey White <madyn@ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:51:05 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net>
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>Saab apparently doesn't know that. They equip all base 2000 9-3s
> >>with Michelins.
> >
> >I happen to have nice new Michelins on my 9.5, so I am listening.
> >Which Michelins were these, the normal ones, or the Plus ones, the
> >specifications are different.
>
> Milt: you have not responded to this. What tires were on your car,
> please? I'd like to know which tires you have on your car.
I didn't see your post until just now.
I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base
9-3 coupe.
These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with
the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have
my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM
replacement tire.
The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March
at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.
The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely
500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where
freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I
usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I
don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's
stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.
******
> OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that
> this is on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new
> problem? Could it be related to a bad batch from a
> particular run, as in the Firestone problems?
*******
Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes:
Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.
++++ ROAD DAMAGE
I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways.
Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I
believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my
driving habits caused the blowout.
++++ WHEEL RIMS
I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently
designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses
much pressure at all. Here is what happens:
1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to
flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver
could possibly notice.
2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This
brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.
3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt
comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire
loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and
weakens the sidewall.
3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost
always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim,
between the wheel rim edges.
4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls
come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant
ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at
that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But
that isn't all......
5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact
with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through
the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.
I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design
flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in
seconds.
This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire
manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.
I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire
on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not
much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this
underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process.
Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you
take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but
they will still be very high like this.
****
Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare
that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes
outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a
little flexing; you're in trouble.
Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often.
While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it
does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly
as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have
SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.
+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES
NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged
inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall
free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have
taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.
I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls
blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in
normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective
almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or
separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto
evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause
accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety
issue.
I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All
I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal
reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at
about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are
suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing
my tires.
When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire
dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because
they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too
much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that
they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a
very, very high number).
This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though --
But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In
the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary
service records on a National scale to establish this as a
product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product
safety issue, though.
> >>> Finally, 11,000 miles is not "NEW". But, IIRC, even OEM tires have
> >>> warranty, so talk to the almighty Michelin to give you new tires and cover
> >>> possible damages to the car IF in fact the reason was none of the above.
> >>
> >>No it's not. They know it, and I suspect you know it, too.
> >
> >OK, well *I* don't know it. What other cause could you say was
> >responsible, other than faulty manufacturing? I've driven for a
> >while, and I have had Michelins on my cars, but not all of them....
> >So what was defective, how was it defective, do you think that this is
> >on *all* michelin tires, and is this an old or a new problem? Could
> >it be related to a bad batch from a particular run, as in the
> >Firestone problems?
> >
> You have not responded, please do so. This is a chance for you to
> provide some information to the list on exactly what tires you had.
> The Michelins come in two different ratings, the "normal" and the
> "plus". I think that the same tires are recommended (by Michelin)
> for the 9.3 and the 9.5.
>
> Again, which tires did you have?
>
> Have you managed to trace them back to a particular run of tires? A
> particular plant? It is possible that the serial numbers on the rest
> of your tires would be identical.
I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing,
merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My
tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the
tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.
> If you are dealing with a bad run, would it not be useful to know that
> the replacement tires did not come from that run? The serial number
> and other data might be useful in trying to determine that.
Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants
to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It
has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them.
This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one*
wants to be involved.
mb
#108
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <3F5B28AF.5664@erols.com>, nimrod@erols.com says...
> Milt:
>
> In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active
> participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab
> vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon
> is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is
> a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For
> example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab
> practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to
> cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said
> it.
Kenneth,
Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points.
That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just
don't want to deal with it.
****
My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more
serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was
serious then.
You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated
from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel
rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds.
The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the
manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over
carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for
the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that
lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a
tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in
the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory.
This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well.
Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have
experienced in my Saab.
******
The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design
and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop;
and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners
driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but
what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable.
The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just
serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general:
Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not
dealing with the problem.
My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning
the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota
newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so
is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer
issues.
mb
>
> I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in
> Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more
> suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had
> owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me,
> because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of
> several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove
> it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have
> replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get
> a less harsh ride.
>
> The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have
> just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen
> C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than
> my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long.
>
> Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it.
> Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the
> current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off
> valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems
> don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives
> monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the
> knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter.
>
> Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some
> responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the
> factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's
> pardon.
>
>
>
>
> milt brewster wrote:
> >
> > In article <bjdbm5$i0vaf$1@ID-152899.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > grunff@ixxa.com says...
> >
> > > milt brewster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Posters here newsgroup ought to report some other helpful advice
> > > > like this.
> > >
> > > While it's clear that you're a moron, and no amount of
> > > explaining will achieve anything, I'll try again ('cause I'm
> > > nice like that).
> >
> > I have yet to call anyone a name here.
> >
> > All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had
> > with my nearly-new Saab.
> >
> > Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you
> > probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I
> > actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you
> > would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided
> > useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of
> > the vague stuff I see below here:
> >
> > > > *) Which tire brands work best on Saabs?
> > >
> > > A car is a car and a tyre is a tyre. There are no tyres that
> > > work best with particular cars (with the exception of special
> > > cases, such as offroading, track work etc.). If you knew even
> > > the basics of car suspension, this would be obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) Which tire brands do you stay away from?
> > >
> > > There certainly are bad brands, few people would say that
> > > Michelin are one of. This has nothing to do with Saab.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) How much should a new tire cost for a Saab?
> > >
> > > What make/type?
> > >
> > >
> > > > My dealer charged me $275 for a replacement Michelin.
> > >
> > > Just one??
> >
> > Yes. Just one.
> >
> > See part of my problem?
> >
> > > > *) What about wheel rims, suspension systems and the like?
> > > > *) As a Saab owner, what simple checks do you perform
> > > > on your tires and suspension system, and how often?
> > >
> > > I crawl around under my cars once a month, carefully inspecting
> > > all suspension components and tyres for any signs of damage.
> >
> > So did I.
> >
> > What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How
> > do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to
> > take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem
> > yourself?
> >
> > > > In fact; this group should maintain a FAQ with simple,
> > > > practical information like this, for Saab owners and for people
> > > > looking to buy Saabs.
> > >
> > > Well, thank you very much for telling us exactly what we should
> > > do, that's very kind of you - especially given that you've
> > > posted to this group about 5 times in the last 3 years.
> >
> > What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I
> > described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It
> > affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't.
> >
> > NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read
> > the group regularly.
> >
> > Calling me names doesn't make it go away.
> >
> > Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same
> > problems I had, if you also own a Saab.
> >
> > >
> > > > As fat as our owners' manuals are; Saab
> > > > still doesn't tell us enough about our cars.
> > >
> > > I get very little of my information directly from Saab. What
> > > exactly do you expect them to tell us?
> >
> > Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so
> > I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last
> > ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and
> > what we should look out for.
> >
> > Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands;
> > some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new
> > Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a
> > newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic
> > questions are useful and helpful.
> >
> > On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you
> > will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this
> > thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or
> > a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or
> > threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I
> > shouldn't have had, and described it here.
> >
> > ****
> >
> > In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in
> > six months, under light use, and with better than normal care.
> > Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling
> > me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here.
> >
> > mb
>
> Milt:
>
> In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active
> participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab
> vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon
> is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is
> a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For
> example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab
> practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to
> cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said
> it.
Kenneth,
Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points.
That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just
don't want to deal with it.
****
My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more
serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was
serious then.
You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated
from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel
rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds.
The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the
manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over
carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for
the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that
lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a
tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in
the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory.
This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well.
Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have
experienced in my Saab.
******
The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design
and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop;
and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners
driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but
what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable.
The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just
serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general:
Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not
dealing with the problem.
My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning
the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota
newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so
is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer
issues.
mb
>
> I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in
> Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more
> suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had
> owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me,
> because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of
> several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove
> it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have
> replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get
> a less harsh ride.
>
> The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have
> just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen
> C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than
> my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long.
>
> Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it.
> Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the
> current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off
> valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems
> don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives
> monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the
> knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter.
>
> Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some
> responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the
> factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's
> pardon.
>
>
>
>
> milt brewster wrote:
> >
> > In article <bjdbm5$i0vaf$1@ID-152899.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > grunff@ixxa.com says...
> >
> > > milt brewster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Posters here newsgroup ought to report some other helpful advice
> > > > like this.
> > >
> > > While it's clear that you're a moron, and no amount of
> > > explaining will achieve anything, I'll try again ('cause I'm
> > > nice like that).
> >
> > I have yet to call anyone a name here.
> >
> > All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had
> > with my nearly-new Saab.
> >
> > Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you
> > probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I
> > actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you
> > would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided
> > useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of
> > the vague stuff I see below here:
> >
> > > > *) Which tire brands work best on Saabs?
> > >
> > > A car is a car and a tyre is a tyre. There are no tyres that
> > > work best with particular cars (with the exception of special
> > > cases, such as offroading, track work etc.). If you knew even
> > > the basics of car suspension, this would be obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) Which tire brands do you stay away from?
> > >
> > > There certainly are bad brands, few people would say that
> > > Michelin are one of. This has nothing to do with Saab.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) How much should a new tire cost for a Saab?
> > >
> > > What make/type?
> > >
> > >
> > > > My dealer charged me $275 for a replacement Michelin.
> > >
> > > Just one??
> >
> > Yes. Just one.
> >
> > See part of my problem?
> >
> > > > *) What about wheel rims, suspension systems and the like?
> > > > *) As a Saab owner, what simple checks do you perform
> > > > on your tires and suspension system, and how often?
> > >
> > > I crawl around under my cars once a month, carefully inspecting
> > > all suspension components and tyres for any signs of damage.
> >
> > So did I.
> >
> > What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How
> > do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to
> > take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem
> > yourself?
> >
> > > > In fact; this group should maintain a FAQ with simple,
> > > > practical information like this, for Saab owners and for people
> > > > looking to buy Saabs.
> > >
> > > Well, thank you very much for telling us exactly what we should
> > > do, that's very kind of you - especially given that you've
> > > posted to this group about 5 times in the last 3 years.
> >
> > What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I
> > described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It
> > affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't.
> >
> > NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read
> > the group regularly.
> >
> > Calling me names doesn't make it go away.
> >
> > Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same
> > problems I had, if you also own a Saab.
> >
> > >
> > > > As fat as our owners' manuals are; Saab
> > > > still doesn't tell us enough about our cars.
> > >
> > > I get very little of my information directly from Saab. What
> > > exactly do you expect them to tell us?
> >
> > Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so
> > I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last
> > ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and
> > what we should look out for.
> >
> > Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands;
> > some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new
> > Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a
> > newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic
> > questions are useful and helpful.
> >
> > On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you
> > will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this
> > thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or
> > a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or
> > threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I
> > shouldn't have had, and described it here.
> >
> > ****
> >
> > In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in
> > six months, under light use, and with better than normal care.
> > Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling
> > me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here.
> >
> > mb
>
#109
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <3F5B28AF.5664@erols.com>, nimrod@erols.com says...
> Milt:
>
> In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active
> participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab
> vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon
> is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is
> a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For
> example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab
> practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to
> cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said
> it.
Kenneth,
Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points.
That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just
don't want to deal with it.
****
My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more
serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was
serious then.
You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated
from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel
rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds.
The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the
manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over
carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for
the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that
lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a
tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in
the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory.
This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well.
Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have
experienced in my Saab.
******
The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design
and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop;
and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners
driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but
what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable.
The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just
serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general:
Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not
dealing with the problem.
My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning
the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota
newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so
is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer
issues.
mb
>
> I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in
> Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more
> suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had
> owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me,
> because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of
> several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove
> it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have
> replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get
> a less harsh ride.
>
> The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have
> just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen
> C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than
> my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long.
>
> Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it.
> Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the
> current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off
> valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems
> don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives
> monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the
> knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter.
>
> Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some
> responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the
> factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's
> pardon.
>
>
>
>
> milt brewster wrote:
> >
> > In article <bjdbm5$i0vaf$1@ID-152899.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > grunff@ixxa.com says...
> >
> > > milt brewster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Posters here newsgroup ought to report some other helpful advice
> > > > like this.
> > >
> > > While it's clear that you're a moron, and no amount of
> > > explaining will achieve anything, I'll try again ('cause I'm
> > > nice like that).
> >
> > I have yet to call anyone a name here.
> >
> > All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had
> > with my nearly-new Saab.
> >
> > Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you
> > probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I
> > actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you
> > would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided
> > useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of
> > the vague stuff I see below here:
> >
> > > > *) Which tire brands work best on Saabs?
> > >
> > > A car is a car and a tyre is a tyre. There are no tyres that
> > > work best with particular cars (with the exception of special
> > > cases, such as offroading, track work etc.). If you knew even
> > > the basics of car suspension, this would be obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) Which tire brands do you stay away from?
> > >
> > > There certainly are bad brands, few people would say that
> > > Michelin are one of. This has nothing to do with Saab.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) How much should a new tire cost for a Saab?
> > >
> > > What make/type?
> > >
> > >
> > > > My dealer charged me $275 for a replacement Michelin.
> > >
> > > Just one??
> >
> > Yes. Just one.
> >
> > See part of my problem?
> >
> > > > *) What about wheel rims, suspension systems and the like?
> > > > *) As a Saab owner, what simple checks do you perform
> > > > on your tires and suspension system, and how often?
> > >
> > > I crawl around under my cars once a month, carefully inspecting
> > > all suspension components and tyres for any signs of damage.
> >
> > So did I.
> >
> > What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How
> > do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to
> > take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem
> > yourself?
> >
> > > > In fact; this group should maintain a FAQ with simple,
> > > > practical information like this, for Saab owners and for people
> > > > looking to buy Saabs.
> > >
> > > Well, thank you very much for telling us exactly what we should
> > > do, that's very kind of you - especially given that you've
> > > posted to this group about 5 times in the last 3 years.
> >
> > What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I
> > described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It
> > affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't.
> >
> > NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read
> > the group regularly.
> >
> > Calling me names doesn't make it go away.
> >
> > Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same
> > problems I had, if you also own a Saab.
> >
> > >
> > > > As fat as our owners' manuals are; Saab
> > > > still doesn't tell us enough about our cars.
> > >
> > > I get very little of my information directly from Saab. What
> > > exactly do you expect them to tell us?
> >
> > Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so
> > I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last
> > ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and
> > what we should look out for.
> >
> > Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands;
> > some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new
> > Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a
> > newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic
> > questions are useful and helpful.
> >
> > On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you
> > will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this
> > thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or
> > a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or
> > threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I
> > shouldn't have had, and described it here.
> >
> > ****
> >
> > In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in
> > six months, under light use, and with better than normal care.
> > Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling
> > me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here.
> >
> > mb
>
> Milt:
>
> In case you're unaware of it by now, quite a few of the most active
> participants in this news group respond to any criticism of Saab
> vehicles by personal attacks on the the critic. To me, this phenomenon
> is, in itself, an interesting one. It seems to indicate that Saabism is
> a religion for some, and any criticism threatens their world view. For
> example, saying that there's no valid reason for the unique Saab
> practice of putting the ignition key between the seats is enough to
> cause some people to think of burning at the stake the person who said
> it.
Kenneth,
Thanks for your reasonable response. I think you got my points.
That means the others replying here got my points, too, but just
don't want to deal with it.
****
My little tire problem has turned out to be a whole lot more
serious than I had originally thought -- and I thought it was
serious then.
You should have seen that tire. Both sidewalls were separated
from the tread belt, which was partially wedged into the wheel
rim belly. It happened quickly, in around ten seconds.
The tire service tech brought over a couple other people and the
manager to look at the tire, and they all looked it over
carefully for ten minutes or so. They have a good scenario for
the failure. They say it's a combination of a design flaw that
lets the wheel rim edges cut through the tire sidewalls, and a
tire that lets its tread casing fit inside the wheel rim edges in
the first place. This is definitely eyebrow-raising territory.
This is also important for Toyota and Honda drivers as well.
Their cars could indeed have the same problems that I have
experienced in my Saab.
******
The broader issue, is whether Saab is going to institute design
and QA procedures that catch these problems before they develop;
and then institute a customer handling process that keeps owners
driving safely and satisfied with our cars. I love Saabs, but
what I'm experiencing is just not acceptable.
The silly troll responses I've mostly fielded here this week just
serves to illustrate the problem that Saab has in general:
Denying the issue and attempting to insult the victim is not
dealing with the problem.
My responses also demonstrate why Honda and Toyota are winning
the US market. People responding from the honda and toyota
newsgroups are not delightful, but they are reasonable -- and so
is the way those companies are handling design flaws and customer
issues.
mb
>
> I bought my 1996 Saab 900SE three years ago, after several vacations in
> Europe during which I rented four-door hatchbacks that seemed far more
> suited to my present lifestyle than the large American V-8s that I had
> owned up to then. The Saab has been a serious disappointment to me,
> because of the repeated need for expensive repairs, and because of
> several obvious design flaws that I did not notice when I test drove
> it. I have had no problems in the tire department, although I have
> replaced the original Michelin Pilot tires by Yokohamas, in order to get
> a less harsh ride.
>
> The deficiencies of my Saab are underlined for me again because I have
> just returned from a vacation in France during which I rented a Citroen
> C-5. This car was far more comfortable, roomy, and quiet-running than
> my 900SE, which I expect to trade in before too long.
>
> Of course, my Saab is far from new, and was not new when I bought it.
> Perhaps, under the GM management, the problems have been fixed in the
> current Saab models. But one disadvantage about habitually brushing off
> valid criticism -- as some in this news group do -- is that problems
> don't get fixed. However, I seriously doubt whether Saab executives
> monitor this news group in search of improvements they can make. So the
> knee-jerk reactions here to any criticisms of Saabs may not matter.
>
> Your point was a valid one. Auto manufacturers DO have some
> responsibility for the tires fitted to their cars when they leave the
> factory. You'll just have to give your attackers here a fool's
> pardon.
>
>
>
>
> milt brewster wrote:
> >
> > In article <bjdbm5$i0vaf$1@ID-152899.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > grunff@ixxa.com says...
> >
> > > milt brewster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Posters here newsgroup ought to report some other helpful advice
> > > > like this.
> > >
> > > While it's clear that you're a moron, and no amount of
> > > explaining will achieve anything, I'll try again ('cause I'm
> > > nice like that).
> >
> > I have yet to call anyone a name here.
> >
> > All I did, was to post a complaint about a serious problem I had
> > with my nearly-new Saab.
> >
> > Your comments below are really not very helpful. While you
> > probably didn't intend them to be; I propose to you, that I
> > actually asked some pretty good basic questions. People like you
> > would be very helpful in a group like this, if you provided
> > useful answers to questions like this in the future -- instead of
> > the vague stuff I see below here:
> >
> > > > *) Which tire brands work best on Saabs?
> > >
> > > A car is a car and a tyre is a tyre. There are no tyres that
> > > work best with particular cars (with the exception of special
> > > cases, such as offroading, track work etc.). If you knew even
> > > the basics of car suspension, this would be obvious.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) Which tire brands do you stay away from?
> > >
> > > There certainly are bad brands, few people would say that
> > > Michelin are one of. This has nothing to do with Saab.
> > >
> > >
> > > > *) How much should a new tire cost for a Saab?
> > >
> > > What make/type?
> > >
> > >
> > > > My dealer charged me $275 for a replacement Michelin.
> > >
> > > Just one??
> >
> > Yes. Just one.
> >
> > See part of my problem?
> >
> > > > *) What about wheel rims, suspension systems and the like?
> > > > *) As a Saab owner, what simple checks do you perform
> > > > on your tires and suspension system, and how often?
> > >
> > > I crawl around under my cars once a month, carefully inspecting
> > > all suspension components and tyres for any signs of damage.
> >
> > So did I.
> >
> > What do you look for specifically? How do you recognize it? How
> > do you fix what you find? On a new car, when do you decide to
> > take your problem to a garage instead of handling the problem
> > yourself?
> >
> > > > In fact; this group should maintain a FAQ with simple,
> > > > practical information like this, for Saab owners and for people
> > > > looking to buy Saabs.
> > >
> > > Well, thank you very much for telling us exactly what we should
> > > do, that's very kind of you - especially given that you've
> > > posted to this group about 5 times in the last 3 years.
> >
> > What does my posting frequency have to do with the problem I
> > described? A problem is a problem. It is valid, or it isn't. It
> > affects other Saab owners, or it doesn't.
> >
> > NOTE: I've posted here using several different accounts and read
> > the group regularly.
> >
> > Calling me names doesn't make it go away.
> >
> > Calling me names also won't protect you from having the same
> > problems I had, if you also own a Saab.
> >
> > >
> > > > As fat as our owners' manuals are; Saab
> > > > still doesn't tell us enough about our cars.
> > >
> > > I get very little of my information directly from Saab. What
> > > exactly do you expect them to tell us?
> >
> > Quibble, quibble. You don't expect an answer with any detail, so
> > I won't offer one -- but car ownership has changed over the last
> > ten and twenty years. What we need to do; what we can do; and
> > what we should look out for.
> >
> > Some newsgroup readers are new to Saab; some of us are old hands;
> > some of us are thinking about replacing an older car with a new
> > Saab. If you are knowledgeable and care to help out in a
> > newsgroup, then you already know why some of these basic
> > questions are useful and helpful.
> >
> > On the other hand, if you are just a troll-enthusiast, then you
> > will pretty much post the kind of answers I'm seeing in this
> > thread --- where posters have called me a moron, or arrogant, or
> > a fool, just because they felt somehow personally insulted or
> > threatened that I had a significant problem with my Saab that I
> > shouldn't have had, and described it here.
> >
> > ****
> >
> > In the meantime, I've had TWO FREEWAY BLOWOUTS on my new Saab in
> > six months, under light use, and with better than normal care.
> > Saab has been AWOL and my dealer has been frankly awful. Calling
> > me names really doesn't address the problem I've reported here.
> >
> > mb
>
#110
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <BB80BCBB.9588%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> in article MPG.19c3c910fd1bd7c1989dba@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51:
>
> > In article <BB7F542C.9514%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> > pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> >> in article MPG.19c2951e57a2b84989db2@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> >> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 05/09/2003 21:42:
> >>
> >>> Less than 11,000 miles on a 2000 9-3 coupe.
> >>>
> >>> SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick
> >>> and dangerous.
> >>>
> >>> NEW Michelin tires have/had 11,000 miles on them. The first
> >>> blowout occurred at only 5500 miles. The Dealer has refused to
> >>> deal with the issue.
> >>
> >> Tyres are tyres. What does this have to do with Saab? If you're not happy
> >> with Michelin, then buy another brand. I have Michelins on the front and
> >> Avons (my old front set) on the rear. They seem fine.
> >
> > Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two
> > blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not
> > even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting.
>
> Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck.
>
> > Sometimes tires are not made well. Tire failures are always a
> > safety issue, and American Tire Manufacturers are supposed to
> > recall tire batches that do not meet manufacturing standards.
> >
> > From calling around yesterday, I find that around five Michelins
> > are experiencing blowouts out of a hundred on new small cars --
> > this is very high, and Michelin should recall these tires. Saab
> > owners should know that Michelins are failing catastrophically in
> > high numbers like this. Because it is a product safety hazard,
> > the Saab Company (GM) should replace these tires.
>
> On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog
> that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested.
Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight
of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires.
They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire
manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality
standard than might be reasonable for other less critical
products.
My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little.
They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate
for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking.
>
> >> Were yours at the correct pressure? When did you last check the pressures?
> >> It's one of those things, along with fluids, that should be checked on a
> >> regular basis to ensure that the car is running as per the manufacturer's
> >> intention and to keep you safe.
>
> > I am very careful with my tires and made no obvious errors like
> > this. I hit no potholes. This was not "road damage," as US Tire
> > mfgrs like to claim.
>
> >> If you've had two blow-outs so far, I'd suggest you're running them more
> >> than a little over-pressure.
>
> > Good guess, but nope. I check my tires carefully and had no
> > reason to suspect this was going to happen.
>
> Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion.
>
> >>> Today I would trade this Saab straight across for a comparable
> >>> Honda Civic ...
> >>
> >> Is there a comparable Honda Civic?
>
> > No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of
> > the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and
> > mechanical record -- and certainly has better customer care.
> > While I like to drive a car that's fun, I MUST drive a car that's
> > safe and reliable.
>
> Oh, you mean "if" there was ...
No.
I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price
differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality
standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain,
last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and
those points have become a critical issues for me this week.
> > Saab should be purple with embarrassment that a car like the
> > Honda Civic can outperform it.
>
> In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice?
Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety,
customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the
sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these
areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota
corollas and Honda civics.
Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this.
>
> Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point?
>
> > And I meant what I said: If somebody made it easy for me, I'd
> > trade my Saab for a comparable Japanese car this week. I need a
> > car that is safe and reliable.
>
> ... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with
> Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed?
I sure would this week.
>
> The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the
> tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them
> straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats,
> who use Pirellis
>
> If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point.
>
> Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel
> better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so
> why let a set of rubber spoil that?
>
> Paul
>
Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have
much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We
pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will
provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and
verify the tires that come on our new cars.
Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal
representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership
when we take delivery of our new cars.
Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a
new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day,
particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our
Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the
OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's
promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as
they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful;
and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted.
The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I
shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account
for that.
You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
want to.
mb
pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> in article MPG.19c3c910fd1bd7c1989dba@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51:
>
> > In article <BB7F542C.9514%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> > pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> >> in article MPG.19c2951e57a2b84989db2@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> >> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 05/09/2003 21:42:
> >>
> >>> Less than 11,000 miles on a 2000 9-3 coupe.
> >>>
> >>> SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick
> >>> and dangerous.
> >>>
> >>> NEW Michelin tires have/had 11,000 miles on them. The first
> >>> blowout occurred at only 5500 miles. The Dealer has refused to
> >>> deal with the issue.
> >>
> >> Tyres are tyres. What does this have to do with Saab? If you're not happy
> >> with Michelin, then buy another brand. I have Michelins on the front and
> >> Avons (my old front set) on the rear. They seem fine.
> >
> > Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two
> > blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not
> > even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting.
>
> Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck.
>
> > Sometimes tires are not made well. Tire failures are always a
> > safety issue, and American Tire Manufacturers are supposed to
> > recall tire batches that do not meet manufacturing standards.
> >
> > From calling around yesterday, I find that around five Michelins
> > are experiencing blowouts out of a hundred on new small cars --
> > this is very high, and Michelin should recall these tires. Saab
> > owners should know that Michelins are failing catastrophically in
> > high numbers like this. Because it is a product safety hazard,
> > the Saab Company (GM) should replace these tires.
>
> On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog
> that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested.
Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight
of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires.
They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire
manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality
standard than might be reasonable for other less critical
products.
My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little.
They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate
for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking.
>
> >> Were yours at the correct pressure? When did you last check the pressures?
> >> It's one of those things, along with fluids, that should be checked on a
> >> regular basis to ensure that the car is running as per the manufacturer's
> >> intention and to keep you safe.
>
> > I am very careful with my tires and made no obvious errors like
> > this. I hit no potholes. This was not "road damage," as US Tire
> > mfgrs like to claim.
>
> >> If you've had two blow-outs so far, I'd suggest you're running them more
> >> than a little over-pressure.
>
> > Good guess, but nope. I check my tires carefully and had no
> > reason to suspect this was going to happen.
>
> Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion.
>
> >>> Today I would trade this Saab straight across for a comparable
> >>> Honda Civic ...
> >>
> >> Is there a comparable Honda Civic?
>
> > No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of
> > the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and
> > mechanical record -- and certainly has better customer care.
> > While I like to drive a car that's fun, I MUST drive a car that's
> > safe and reliable.
>
> Oh, you mean "if" there was ...
No.
I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price
differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality
standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain,
last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and
those points have become a critical issues for me this week.
> > Saab should be purple with embarrassment that a car like the
> > Honda Civic can outperform it.
>
> In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice?
Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety,
customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the
sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these
areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota
corollas and Honda civics.
Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this.
>
> Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point?
>
> > And I meant what I said: If somebody made it easy for me, I'd
> > trade my Saab for a comparable Japanese car this week. I need a
> > car that is safe and reliable.
>
> ... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with
> Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed?
I sure would this week.
>
> The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the
> tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them
> straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats,
> who use Pirellis
>
> If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point.
>
> Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel
> better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so
> why let a set of rubber spoil that?
>
> Paul
>
Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have
much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We
pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will
provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and
verify the tires that come on our new cars.
Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal
representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership
when we take delivery of our new cars.
Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a
new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day,
particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our
Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the
OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's
promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as
they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful;
and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted.
The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I
shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account
for that.
You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
want to.
mb
#111
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
In article <BB80BCBB.9588%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> in article MPG.19c3c910fd1bd7c1989dba@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51:
>
> > In article <BB7F542C.9514%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> > pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> >> in article MPG.19c2951e57a2b84989db2@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> >> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 05/09/2003 21:42:
> >>
> >>> Less than 11,000 miles on a 2000 9-3 coupe.
> >>>
> >>> SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick
> >>> and dangerous.
> >>>
> >>> NEW Michelin tires have/had 11,000 miles on them. The first
> >>> blowout occurred at only 5500 miles. The Dealer has refused to
> >>> deal with the issue.
> >>
> >> Tyres are tyres. What does this have to do with Saab? If you're not happy
> >> with Michelin, then buy another brand. I have Michelins on the front and
> >> Avons (my old front set) on the rear. They seem fine.
> >
> > Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two
> > blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not
> > even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting.
>
> Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck.
>
> > Sometimes tires are not made well. Tire failures are always a
> > safety issue, and American Tire Manufacturers are supposed to
> > recall tire batches that do not meet manufacturing standards.
> >
> > From calling around yesterday, I find that around five Michelins
> > are experiencing blowouts out of a hundred on new small cars --
> > this is very high, and Michelin should recall these tires. Saab
> > owners should know that Michelins are failing catastrophically in
> > high numbers like this. Because it is a product safety hazard,
> > the Saab Company (GM) should replace these tires.
>
> On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog
> that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested.
Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight
of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires.
They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire
manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality
standard than might be reasonable for other less critical
products.
My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little.
They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate
for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking.
>
> >> Were yours at the correct pressure? When did you last check the pressures?
> >> It's one of those things, along with fluids, that should be checked on a
> >> regular basis to ensure that the car is running as per the manufacturer's
> >> intention and to keep you safe.
>
> > I am very careful with my tires and made no obvious errors like
> > this. I hit no potholes. This was not "road damage," as US Tire
> > mfgrs like to claim.
>
> >> If you've had two blow-outs so far, I'd suggest you're running them more
> >> than a little over-pressure.
>
> > Good guess, but nope. I check my tires carefully and had no
> > reason to suspect this was going to happen.
>
> Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion.
>
> >>> Today I would trade this Saab straight across for a comparable
> >>> Honda Civic ...
> >>
> >> Is there a comparable Honda Civic?
>
> > No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of
> > the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and
> > mechanical record -- and certainly has better customer care.
> > While I like to drive a car that's fun, I MUST drive a car that's
> > safe and reliable.
>
> Oh, you mean "if" there was ...
No.
I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price
differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality
standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain,
last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and
those points have become a critical issues for me this week.
> > Saab should be purple with embarrassment that a car like the
> > Honda Civic can outperform it.
>
> In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice?
Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety,
customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the
sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these
areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota
corollas and Honda civics.
Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this.
>
> Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point?
>
> > And I meant what I said: If somebody made it easy for me, I'd
> > trade my Saab for a comparable Japanese car this week. I need a
> > car that is safe and reliable.
>
> ... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with
> Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed?
I sure would this week.
>
> The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the
> tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them
> straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats,
> who use Pirellis
>
> If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point.
>
> Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel
> better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so
> why let a set of rubber spoil that?
>
> Paul
>
Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have
much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We
pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will
provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and
verify the tires that come on our new cars.
Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal
representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership
when we take delivery of our new cars.
Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a
new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day,
particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our
Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the
OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's
promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as
they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful;
and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted.
The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I
shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account
for that.
You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
want to.
mb
pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> in article MPG.19c3c910fd1bd7c1989dba@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 06/09/2003 19:51:
>
> > In article <BB7F542C.9514%pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> > pjgh@blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >
> >> in article MPG.19c2951e57a2b84989db2@news.sonic.net, milt brewster at
> >> milt73@sonic.net wrote on 05/09/2003 21:42:
> >>
> >>> Less than 11,000 miles on a 2000 9-3 coupe.
> >>>
> >>> SECOND catastrophic freeway blowout in six months. Both quick
> >>> and dangerous.
> >>>
> >>> NEW Michelin tires have/had 11,000 miles on them. The first
> >>> blowout occurred at only 5500 miles. The Dealer has refused to
> >>> deal with the issue.
> >>
> >> Tyres are tyres. What does this have to do with Saab? If you're not happy
> >> with Michelin, then buy another brand. I have Michelins on the front and
> >> Avons (my old front set) on the rear. They seem fine.
> >
> > Good for you. I hope your luck continues. Nobody should have two
> > blowouts on the freeway in six months, driving a new car. Not
> > even the people in this thread who have been frankly insulting.
>
> Agreed, but I think you've been an unwitting victim of plain bad luck.
>
> > Sometimes tires are not made well. Tire failures are always a
> > safety issue, and American Tire Manufacturers are supposed to
> > recall tire batches that do not meet manufacturing standards.
> >
> > From calling around yesterday, I find that around five Michelins
> > are experiencing blowouts out of a hundred on new small cars --
> > this is very high, and Michelin should recall these tires. Saab
> > owners should know that Michelins are failing catastrophically in
> > high numbers like this. Because it is a product safety hazard,
> > the Saab Company (GM) should replace these tires.
>
> On what do you base this statement? Is there some un/official tyre watchdog
> that holds some stats on this kind of thing? I'm interested.
Actually in the US, there is supposed to be government oversight
of the design, manufacture, marketing and servicing of tires.
They are considered to be a critical safety product, and tire
manufacturers are supposed to be held to a higher quality
standard than might be reasonable for other less critical
products.
My phone calls to tire dealers indicate a lot, but prove little.
They DO give me reason to report a one-in-twenty failure rate
for my Michelin tires, and to then ask the questions I'm asking.
>
> >> Were yours at the correct pressure? When did you last check the pressures?
> >> It's one of those things, along with fluids, that should be checked on a
> >> regular basis to ensure that the car is running as per the manufacturer's
> >> intention and to keep you safe.
>
> > I am very careful with my tires and made no obvious errors like
> > this. I hit no potholes. This was not "road damage," as US Tire
> > mfgrs like to claim.
>
> >> If you've had two blow-outs so far, I'd suggest you're running them more
> >> than a little over-pressure.
>
> > Good guess, but nope. I check my tires carefully and had no
> > reason to suspect this was going to happen.
>
> Okay, that's good. My apologies if you read my comment as an aspersion.
>
> >>> Today I would trade this Saab straight across for a comparable
> >>> Honda Civic ...
> >>
> >> Is there a comparable Honda Civic?
>
> > No, and that's my point here. The Honda Civic sells for 60% of
> > the cost of a 9-3 Saab, yet the Civic has a better safety and
> > mechanical record -- and certainly has better customer care.
> > While I like to drive a car that's fun, I MUST drive a car that's
> > safe and reliable.
>
> Oh, you mean "if" there was ...
No.
I mean that even with its flaws and its obvious price
differential, Honda Civics seem to be built to higher quality
standards, and are safer to drive, less expensive to maintain,
last as long, and have better customer care than Saabs do, and
those points have become a critical issues for me this week.
> > Saab should be purple with embarrassment that a car like the
> > Honda Civic can outperform it.
>
> In what way? Style? Comfort? Speed? MPG? 0-60? Mileage? Tyre choice?
Balance of reliability, maintenance costs, product safety,
customer service, and being fun to drive. Saab is not winning the
sales battle in the US, partly because it comes up short in these
areas compared to even inexpensive Japanese cars like Toyota
corollas and Honda civics.
Being a Saab owner, I regret having to say this.
>
> Do you want to play top trumps, or make a point?
>
> > And I meant what I said: If somebody made it easy for me, I'd
> > trade my Saab for a comparable Japanese car this week. I need a
> > car that is safe and reliable.
>
> ... and presumably if you traded for, say, a Toyota Corolla, which came with
> Michelin tyres (as my father-in-law's did) you'd have the tyres changed?
I sure would this week.
>
> The tyres you run on your car is your own responsibility. If you saw the
> tyres Saab put on their cars as sub-standard, you should've changed them
> straight away. Lucky for me, the only new cars I've bought have been Fiats,
> who use Pirellis
>
> If your point was to slander Michelin, then I think you've made that point.
>
> Perhaps if you just paid out for a new set of tyres (all 4), you'd feel
> better about your Saab. You have said that you used to be a Saab fanatic, so
> why let a set of rubber spoil that?
>
> Paul
>
Some good points, some not; Paul. Here in the US, we don't have
much of a tire choice when we take delivery on a new car: We
pretty much have to take what the Manufacturer insists they will
provide. We have no chance to research, choose, inspect and
verify the tires that come on our new cars.
Taken in general, American new car buyers have to trust the legal
representations and Warrantees we are handed at the dealership
when we take delivery of our new cars.
Certainly in general, Saab can not expect owners to throw away a
new set of tires on a brand new car on the first day,
particularly when we don't know whether it will void part of our
Warrantees and probably don't know much about the quality of the
OEM tires anyway. New buyers must legally rely on the Saab's
promise that our new car is designed well and safe to drive as
they have equipped it. I am finding that my Saab wasn't careful;
and that Saab won't stand behind the problem that has resulted.
The fact remains that I had a problem with my Saab that I
shouldn't have had. Saab and Michelin need to be held to account
for that.
You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
want to.
mb
#112
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:42:03 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> davehinz@spamcop.net says...
>>
>> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough,
>> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice
>> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the
>> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups
>> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.
>
> A troll posts and runs. I am not running.
Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post,
I see "flame war".
> I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions.
My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced.
> I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
> several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
> general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
> You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
> look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
> finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
> difference years and years from now.
Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think,
but go ahead and think whatever you want.
> I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
> selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
> them.
Bullshit. Bull ing . It is *MY* choice what groups to post
to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and
a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice.
> I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:
>
> 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics.
> Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
> perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
> Saab.
Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or
a honda. Bad luck, get over it.
>> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does
>> not a statistical trend make?
Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are
expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not.
>> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout
>> would be.
>
> This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.
>
> "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
> describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
> destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
> risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
> some way.
So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the
links that Laura provided for you?
>> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did
>> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.
>
> 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.
In sharp contrast to your behavior here...
> Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
> failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.
You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the
way).
>> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade
>> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that
>> checked?
>
> The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
> would not be affected.
> But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
> and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.
By whom?
> I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
> my experience with them.
Based on what? A statistical anomaly?
> Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
> reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
> manufacturer.
Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims
to be baseless. Next?
> A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
> some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
> This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
> Management.
Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand
miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to
take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem.
> [snip]
Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing
Saab of "criminal" behavior?
> In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> davehinz@spamcop.net says...
>>
>> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough,
>> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice
>> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the
>> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups
>> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.
>
> A troll posts and runs. I am not running.
Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post,
I see "flame war".
> I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions.
My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced.
> I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
> several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
> general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
> You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
> look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
> finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
> difference years and years from now.
Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think,
but go ahead and think whatever you want.
> I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
> selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
> them.
Bullshit. Bull ing . It is *MY* choice what groups to post
to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and
a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice.
> I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:
>
> 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics.
> Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
> perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
> Saab.
Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or
a honda. Bad luck, get over it.
>> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does
>> not a statistical trend make?
Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are
expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not.
>> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout
>> would be.
>
> This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.
>
> "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
> describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
> destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
> risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
> some way.
So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the
links that Laura provided for you?
>> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did
>> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.
>
> 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.
In sharp contrast to your behavior here...
> Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
> failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.
You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the
way).
>> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade
>> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that
>> checked?
>
> The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
> would not be affected.
> But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
> and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.
By whom?
> I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
> my experience with them.
Based on what? A statistical anomaly?
> Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
> reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
> manufacturer.
Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims
to be baseless. Next?
> A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
> some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
> This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
> Management.
Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand
miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to
take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem.
> [snip]
Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing
Saab of "criminal" behavior?
#113
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:42:03 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> davehinz@spamcop.net says...
>>
>> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough,
>> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice
>> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the
>> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups
>> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.
>
> A troll posts and runs. I am not running.
Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post,
I see "flame war".
> I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions.
My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced.
> I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
> several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
> general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
> You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
> look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
> finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
> difference years and years from now.
Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think,
but go ahead and think whatever you want.
> I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
> selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
> them.
Bullshit. Bull ing . It is *MY* choice what groups to post
to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and
a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice.
> I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:
>
> 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics.
> Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
> perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
> Saab.
Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or
a honda. Bad luck, get over it.
>> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does
>> not a statistical trend make?
Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are
expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not.
>> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout
>> would be.
>
> This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.
>
> "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
> describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
> destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
> risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
> some way.
So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the
links that Laura provided for you?
>> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did
>> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.
>
> 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.
In sharp contrast to your behavior here...
> Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
> failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.
You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the
way).
>> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade
>> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that
>> checked?
>
> The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
> would not be affected.
> But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
> and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.
By whom?
> I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
> my experience with them.
Based on what? A statistical anomaly?
> Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
> reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
> manufacturer.
Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims
to be baseless. Next?
> A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
> some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
> This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
> Management.
Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand
miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to
take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem.
> [snip]
Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing
Saab of "criminal" behavior?
> In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> davehinz@spamcop.net says...
>>
>> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough,
>> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice
>> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the
>> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups
>> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.
>
> A troll posts and runs. I am not running.
Followups fixed *again*. I don't see the word "troll" in my post,
I see "flame war".
> I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions.
My impressions are, if anything, being reinforced.
> I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
> several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
> general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
> You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
> look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
> finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
> difference years and years from now.
Yes, they will. I'm not sure that that'll turn out the way you think,
but go ahead and think whatever you want.
> I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
> selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
> them.
Bullshit. Bull ing . It is *MY* choice what groups to post
to. If I choose not to post a reply to your drivel across a dozen and
a half unrelated groups, that is *MY* choice.
> I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:
>
> 1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
No they're not. Entirely differnet demographics.
> Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
> perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
> Saab.
Yeah, you got two blowouts. Just like you would have with a toyota or
a honda. Bad luck, get over it.
>> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does
>> not a statistical trend make?
Hello? this is kind of a central point, and you ignore it. You are
expanding *your* experience and assuming we all share it. We do not.
>> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout
>> would be.
>
> This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.
>
> "catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
> describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
> destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
> risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
> some way.
So you *have* done some homework, it seems. Have you checked into the
links that Laura provided for you?
>> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did
>> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.
>
> 1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.
In sharp contrast to your behavior here...
> Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
> failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.
You a lawyer or something? (not intended as a compliment, by the
way).
>> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade
>> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that
>> checked?
>
> The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
> would not be affected.
> But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
> and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.
By whom?
> I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
> my experience with them.
Based on what? A statistical anomaly?
> Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
> reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
> manufacturer.
Fine, and you apparently did that and they found your claims
to be baseless. Next?
> A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
> some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
> This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
> Management.
Only if they value you as a customer. When my tranny went, many thousand
miles out of warranty, Saab paid for it anyway. If they didn't want to
take care of your tires, maybe, just maybe, it isn't their problem.
> [snip]
Is that the part where I ask you inconvenient things about your accusing
Saab of "criminal" behavior?
#114
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."
After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.
That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.
RiCK
>
> You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
> events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
> wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
> comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
> get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
> want to.
>
>
> mb
>
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."
After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.
That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.
RiCK
>
> You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
> events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
> wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
> comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
> get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
> want to.
>
>
> mb
>
#115
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."
After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.
That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.
RiCK
>
> You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
> events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
> wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
> comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
> get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
> want to.
>
>
> mb
>
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."
After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.
That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.
RiCK
>
> You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
> events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
> wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
> comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
> get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
> want to.
>
>
> mb
>
#116
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."
After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.
That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.
RiCK
>
> You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
> events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
> wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
> comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
> get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
> want to.
>
>
> mb
>
#117
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Saab Complaint
I think that when you use a word like "criminal" and assert that Saab is
aware of a dangerous situation and go on accuse of a cover-up akin to the
Ford Explorer/Bridgestone example, you are drawing an extremely thin line
between what is "libel" and what is "fair comment."
After spending a good 20 minutes reading all of these posts (and that's 20
minutes I will NEVER GET BACK), I think I might find it funny if MB and Saab
ended up in litigation. It would at least add to entertainment value.
That's not meant to offend MB, who obviously has, in his mind, a very real
issue he's dealing with.
RiCK
>
> You can't call it "slander," because I am fairly describing
> events that really did happen to me. Besides, the word you
> wanted was "libel" in the United States. Even at that, my
> comments come under the heading of "fair comment," which means I
> get to express my opinion about Saab and Michelin as loudly as I
> want to.
>
>
> mb
>