Mike Wilson

Hey Bob
Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't red
at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous post. I
guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed is
higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.

What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine, good
acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with the
fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister maybe
leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without any
problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL

Mike


"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I call
on
> Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
around
> to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about it.
>
> I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for
some
> very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see
this
> very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I forgot
to
> mention this yesterday.
>
> What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't get
> anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off
the
> foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the
> engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you have,
> because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing
> down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I have
to
> back her off a bit.
> One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as
> possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from
> time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
>
> I'll get back to you tomorrow
>
> Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> "Never pet a burning dog!"
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > Here's a test for you:
> >
> > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > remains constant).
> >
> > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> >
> > Try it and let me know.
> >
> > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor)
> > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)?
> > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned
> > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in
> > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > supposed to downshift instead).
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various reason
> why
> > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But
> what's
> > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I
> drive
> > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum
> > advance
> > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local
> > wrecker
> > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
leaky
> > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is
> > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the valves,
> > there
> > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
valves
> > were
> > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a tan
> > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
loose,
> > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I determined
> that
> > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just added
> > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine being
> > cold.
> > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any
luck
> > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
clearances,
> > if
> > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I can
> > tear
> > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
now?
> > LOL
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust
> > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top.
> > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The
> > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
> > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > >
> > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
> > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
> > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight,
the
> > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat
for
> > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
engine
> > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than
too
> > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
> > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake
> > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the
> > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours
> > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the
> > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> chamber
> > > > that
> > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but
the
> > last
> > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
engines,
> > > just
> > > > my
> > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
lines
> > > (sorry
> > > > I
> > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model
> > > doesn't
> > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the
> car.
> > > > Again
> > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
highway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > distributor
> > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are
> > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> manual.
> > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining
> how
> > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description
> > which
> > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of
> > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up
the
> > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the
> > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see
> > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If
> > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these
> > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> analog!)
> > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not
> > sure
> > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors
> > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating
> > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold
> > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck,
> they
> > > > moved
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased
> > them
> > > > up.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem.
The
> > > > breaker
> > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased
it,
> > > > adjusted
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module
> as
> > it
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
bottom
> > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
line
> to
> > > > build
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or
3
> > mm.
> > > > The
> > > > > > top
> > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely
> > working
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is
> no
> > > back
> > > > > > > firing. With the engine wrmed up, timing light attached,
revved
> > the
> > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > distributor
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > advancing
> > > > BTDC
> > > > > 5
> > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
drive
> > down
> > > > the
> > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out
the
> > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at
www.hmaservice.com/webtech
> .
> > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then
read
> > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this
> > dist
> > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm.
This
> > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at
2500
> > > rpms
> > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not
enough).
> > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the
> engine
> > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5°
is
> > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing
> light.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when
> cold.
> > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
> > > > performance
> > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR
being
> > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which
> is
> > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully
> > closed
> > > or
> > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the
> mechanical
> > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then
> reconnect
> > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than
before.
> > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open
> > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which
may
> > be
> > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the
EGR.
> > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to
that
> > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably
has
> > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good luck.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl
> : )
> > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill
down
> > the
> > > > road
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week.
> > > : )
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to
> > 130Kph
> > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never
> > thought
> > > > to
> > > > > > try
> > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't
trust
> > the
> > > > > Haynes
> > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the
underside
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > hood,
> > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor
problem.
> > I'll
> > > > > check
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the
car
> > was
> > > > > > > > backfiring,
> > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to
> > 2,500
> > > > RPM
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car
> is
> > > > stone
> > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to
> > > 2,500RPM
> > > > > > cold
> > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the
> thermo
> > > > valve
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo
> valve,
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > heats
> > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the
> temp
> > is
> > > > hot
> > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG
> > does
> > > > open
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says
> that
> > > the
> > > > > ERG
> > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The
> ERG
> > > > opens
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but
> not
> > > at
> > > > > > idle.
> > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the
> wrong
> > > > times.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the
> > > highway
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back
home
> > in
> > > > over
> > > > > > > > drive,
> > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min.
Checked
> > the
> > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red
> > cherry
> > > > > > tomato.
> > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle.
> > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no
go,
> > > then
> > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a
thermo
> > > > valve.
> > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG
> > > diagram
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > 88
> > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting
path
> to
> > > > > follow
> > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At
> > least
> > > I
> > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at
> > > highway
> > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out
> there
> > > > > either.
> > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at
> > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet
> > your
> > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of
> > > unburned
> > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary
air
> > > hose
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably
broken
> or
> > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so
> the
> > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've
compensated
> > for
> > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle
is
> > > open,
> > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on
> the
> > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine
> would
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai,
or
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430
for
> a
> > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any
dist
> > from
> > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly
> > > between
> > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay
trying
> > to
> > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few
> months
> > > ago
> > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out
> > there
> > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different
> > > auctions
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a
> > > > > > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember
I
> > was
> > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate
> the
> > > > > glowing
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the
> > crankshaft
> > > > at
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the
> problem
> > > > gets
> > > > > > > worse
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked
the
> > > spark
> > > > > > plugs
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC,
> plugs
> > > are
> > > > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing
> > isn't
> > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either
shifting
> > the
> > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth,
> > > advancing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I
> > > checked
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark
> IE:
> > > the
> > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > blur
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20%
BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I
> wipp
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > road
> > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's
because
> > > I've
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Update:
Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look at
the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't
red
> at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous post.
I
> guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed is
> higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
> let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
>
> What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
> load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
good
> acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with
the
> fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
> require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister maybe
> leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without any
> problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
call
> on
> > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> around
> > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about
it.
> >
> > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for
> some
> > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see
> this
> > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
forgot
> to
> > mention this yesterday.
> >
> > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't
get
> > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off
> the
> > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the
> > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
have,
> > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing
> > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
have
> to
> > back her off a bit.
> > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as
> > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from
> > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> >
> > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> >
> > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > Here's a test for you:
> > >
> > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > remains constant).
> > >
> > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > >
> > > Try it and let me know.
> > >
> > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor)
> > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)?
> > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned
> > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in
> > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
reason
> > why
> > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But
> > what's
> > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I
> > drive
> > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum
> > > advance
> > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local
> > > wrecker
> > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
> leaky
> > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is
> > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
valves,
> > > there
> > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> valves
> > > were
> > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a
tan
> > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> loose,
> > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
determined
> > that
> > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
added
> > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
being
> > > cold.
> > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any
> luck
> > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> clearances,
> > > if
> > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I
can
> > > tear
> > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
> now?
> > > LOL
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
Exhaust
> > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the
top.
> > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause.
The
> > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or
> > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > >
> > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when
> > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was
> > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight,
> the
> > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat
> for
> > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> engine
> > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than
> too
> > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape,
> > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
mistake
> > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on
the
> > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
hours
> > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set
the
> > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> > chamber
> > > > > that
> > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but
> the
> > > last
> > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> engines,
> > > > just
> > > > > my
> > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
> lines
> > > > (sorry
> > > > > I
> > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
model
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for
the
> > car.
> > > > > Again
> > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> highway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > > distributor
> > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum
> > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There
are
> > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> > manual.
> > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
less.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
explaining
> > how
> > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum
> > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
description
> > > which
> > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either
of
> > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up
> the
> > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other.
> > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore
the
> > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that
> > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot,
> > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to
see
> > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next.
If
> > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
these
> > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> > analog!)
> > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is
> > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm
not
> > > sure
> > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
sensors
> > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
penetrating
> > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
manifold
> > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR
> > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck,
> > they
> > > > > moved
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
greased
> > > them
> > > > > up.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem.
> The
> > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased
> it,
> > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
module
> > as
> > > it
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> bottom
> > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
> line
> > to
> > > > > build
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2
or
> 3
> > > mm.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely
> > > working
> > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there
is
> > no
>> > > back
> > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached,
> revved
> > > the
> > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > > distributor
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > > advancing
> > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
> drive
> > > down
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph,
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out
> the
> > > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at
> www.hmaservice.com/webtech
> > .
> > > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under
> > > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then
> read
> > > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for
this
> > > dist
> > > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm.
> This
> > > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at
> 2500
> > > > rpms
> > > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not
> enough).
> > > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the
> > engine
> > > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5°
> is
> > > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing
> > light.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when
> > cold.
> > > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor
> > > > > performance
> > > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR
> being
> > > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum,
which
> > is
> > > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully
> > > closed
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the
> > mechanical
> > > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then
> > reconnect
> > > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than
> before.
> > > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you
open
> > > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which
> may
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the
> EGR.
> > > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to
> that
> > > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably
> has
> > > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Good luck.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl
> > : )
> > > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill
> down
> > > the
> > > > > road
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > us.
> > > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a
week.
> > > > : )
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to
> > > 130Kph
> > > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never
> > > thought
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > try
> > > > > > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't
> trust
> > > the
> > > > > > Haynes
> > > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the
> underside
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > hood,
> > > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor
> problem.
> > > I'll
> > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the
> car
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > backfiring,
> > > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark)
so
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > could be the problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car
to
> > > 2,500
> > > > > RPM
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the
car
> > is
> > > > > stone
> > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up
to
> > > > 2,500RPM
> > > > > > > cold
> > > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the
> > thermo
> > > > > valve
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo
> > valve,
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > heats
> > > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the
> > temp
> > > is
> > > > > hot
> > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The
ERG
> > > does
> > > > > open
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual
says
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > ERG
> > > > > > > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot.
The
> > ERG
> > > > > opens
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold),
but
> > not
> > > > at
> > > > > > > idle.
> > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the
> > wrong
> > > > > times.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down
the
> > > > highway
> > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back
> home
> > > in
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > drive,
> > > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min.
> Checked
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red
> > > cherry
> > > > > > > tomato.
> > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full
throttle.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no
> go,
> > > > then
> > > > > > > check
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a
> thermo
> > > > > valve.
> > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the
ERG
> > > > diagram
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > 88
> > > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting
> path
> > to
> > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you.
At
> > > least
> > > > I
> > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going
at
> > > > highway
> > > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out
> > there
> > > > > > either.
> > > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at
> > > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I
bet
> > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. >
> > > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT
of
> > > > unburned
> > > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your
manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary
> air
> > > > hose
> > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably
> broken
> > or
> > > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring),
so
> > the
> > > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've
> compensated
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle
> is
> > > > open,
> > > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of,
on
> > the
> > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai,
> or
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430
> for
> > a
> > > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any
> dist
> > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it
has
> > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ
slightly
> > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay
> trying
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few
> > months
> > > > ago
> > > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing
out
> > > there
> > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different
> > > > auctions
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find
a
> > > > > > > > > > > used distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance.
Remember
> I
> > > was
> > > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to
eliminate
> > the
> > > > > > glowing
> > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the
> > > crankshaft
> > > > > at
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > half
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can)
and
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%)
> > > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the
> > problem
> > > > > gets
> > > > > > > > worse
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked
> the
> > > > spark
> > > > > > > plugs
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > now
> > > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC,
> > plugs
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > starting
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the
timing
> > > isn't
> > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either
> shifting
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > crankshaft
> > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth,
> > > > advancing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect.
I
> > > > checked
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC)
and
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing
mark
> > IE:
> > > > the
> > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > blur
> > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20%
> BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I
> > wipp
> > > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > road
> > > > > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's
> because
> > > > I've
> > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bob Bailin

I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
Try one more test:

Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
providing an extra 8° using this method).

BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> Update:
> Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look at
> the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
> like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't
> red
> > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
post.
> I
> > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed
is
> > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving faster,
> > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> >
> > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is under
> > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
> good
> > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do with
> the
> > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission does
> > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
maybe
> > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without
any
> > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
> > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
> call
> > on
> > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> > around
> > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about
> it.
> > >
> > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust
> > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except
for
> > some
> > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't
see
> > this
> > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> forgot
> > to
> > > mention this yesterday.
> > >
> > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't
> get
> > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back
off
> > the
> > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of
the
> > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
> have,
> > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
pressing
> > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
> have
> > to
> > > back her off a bit.
> > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast,
as
> > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus
from
> > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > >
> > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > >
> > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > >
> > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > remains constant).
> > > >
> > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your
> > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > >
> > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > >
> > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
floor)
> > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
accelerating)?
> > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
mentioned
> > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping
> > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results
in
> > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> reason
> > > why
> > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing.
But
> > > what's
> > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when
I
> > > drive
> > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
vacuum
> > > > advance
> > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
local
> > > > wrecker
> > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or
> > leaky
> > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution
is
> > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> valves,
> > > > there
> > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> > valves
> > > > were
> > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a
> tan
> > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> > loose,
> > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> determined
> > > that
> > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
> added
> > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
> being
> > > > cold.
> > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have
any
> > luck
> > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > clearances,
> > > > if
> > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I
> can
> > > > tear
> > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better
> > now?
> > > > LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> Exhaust
> > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the
> top.
> > > >> > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause.
> The
> > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt
or
> > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
when
> > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance
was
> > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
tight,
> > the
> > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
seat
> > for
> > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> > engine
> > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser
than
> > too
> > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
shape,
> > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> mistake
> > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on
> the
> > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
> hours
> > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set
> the
> > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in
> > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before
> > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top
> > > chamber
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker,
but
> > the
> > > > last
> > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> > engines,
> > > > > just
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum
> > lines
> > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
> model
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for
> the
> > > car.
> > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> > highway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the
> > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an
> > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There
> are
> > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for
> > > manual.
> > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
> less.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> explaining
> > > how
> > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams.
> > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine
> > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> description
> > > > which
> > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
either
> of
> > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev
up
> > the
> > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
other.
> > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore
> the
> > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is
> > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one
that
> > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability
> > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
shot,
> > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this
> > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to
> see
> > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
next.
> If
> > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
> these
> > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an
> > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car
is
> > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer
> > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm
> not
> > > > sure
> > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> sensors
> > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> penetrating
> > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the
EGR
> > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
stuck,
> > > they
> > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> greased
> > > > them
> > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
problem.
> > The
> > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
greased
> > it,
> > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
> module
> > > as
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> > bottom
> > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the
> > line
> > > to
> > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2
> or
> > 3
> > > > mm.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
definitely
> > > > working
> > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
there
> is
> > > no
> > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached,
> > revved
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the
> > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then
> > > > advancing
> > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a
> > drive
> > > > down
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph,
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
suggestions?
> > > > > > > > >

Mike Wilson

Hey Bob
The car is a manual Transmission
That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.

Mike


"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> Try one more test:
>
> Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> providing an extra 8° using this method).
>
> BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > Update:
> > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a look
at
> > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red, seems
> > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
isn't
> > red
> > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
> post.
> > I
> > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine speed
> is
> > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
faster,
> > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > >
> > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
under
> > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives fine,
> > good
> > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do
with
> > the
> > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
does
> > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
> maybe
> > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive without
> any
> > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to
her
> > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I
> > call
> > > on
> > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got
> > > around
> > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
about
> > it.
> > > >
> > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
exhaust
> > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except
> for
> > > some
> > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't
> see
> > > this
> > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> > forgot
> > > to
> > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > >
> > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
don't
> > get
> > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back
> off
> > > the
> > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of
> the
> > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you
> > have,
> > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> pressing
> > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I
> > have
> > > to
> > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
fast,
> as
> > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus
> from
> > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > >
> > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > >
> > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > >
> > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist
> > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > remains constant).
> > > > >
> > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
your
> > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply
> > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > >
> > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> floor)
> > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> accelerating)?
> > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those
> > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> mentioned
> > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for
> > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
dropping
> > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
results
> in
> > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're
> > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> > reason
> > > > why
> > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing.
> But
> > > > what's
> > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen
when
> I
> > > > drive
> > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> vacuum
> > > > > advance
> > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
> local
> > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt
or
> > > leaky
> > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
solution
> is
> > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> > valves,
> > > > > there
> > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the
> > > valves
> > > > > were
> > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are
a
> > tan
> > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them
> > > loose,
> > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > determined
> > > > that
> > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just
> > added
> > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine
> > being
> > > > > cold.
> > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have
> any
> > > luck
> > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > clearances,
> > > > > if
> > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so
I
> > can
> > > > > tear
> > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
better
> > > now?
> > > > > LOL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> > Exhaust
> > > > > > > Manfold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near
the
> > top.
> > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
cause.
> > The
> > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt
> or
> > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
> when
> > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance
> was
> > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
> tight,
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
> seat
> > > for
> > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4
> > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but
> > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser
> than
> > > too
> > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> shape,
> > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> > mistake
> > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles
on
> > the
> > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few
> > hours
> > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had
set
> > the
> > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up
in
> > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
before
> > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the
top
> > > > chamber
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker,
> but
> > > the
> > > > > last
> > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the
> > > engines,
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
vacuum
> > > lines
> > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86
> > model
> > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part
for
> > the
> > > > car.
> > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the
> > > highway.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for
an
> > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
There
> > are
> > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other
for
> > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot
> > less.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > explaining
> > > > how
> > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
> vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
engine
> > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > description
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> either
> > of
> > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev
> up
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> other.
> > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
therefore
> > the
> > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car
is
> > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one
> that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
driveability
> > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
> shot,
> > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If
this
> > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily
to
> > see
> > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
> next.
> > If
> > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all
> > these
> > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not
an
> > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the
car
> is
> > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
computer
> > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out.
I'm
> > not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> > sensors
> > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the
> EGR
> > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
> stuck,
> > > > they
> > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> > greased
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> problem.
> > > The
> > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> greased
> > > it,
> > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance
> > module
> > > > as
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the
> > > bottom
> > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on
the
> > > line
> > > > to
> > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe
2
> > or
> > > 3
> > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> definitely
> > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
> there
> > is
> > > > no
> > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
attached,
> > > revved
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed
the
> > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
then
> > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for
a
> > > drive
> > > > > down
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
100Kph,
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Hey Bob
Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm going
into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the car.
I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.

Mike


"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> The car is a manual Transmission
> That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > Try one more test:
> >
> > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> >
> > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Update:
> > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
look
> at
> > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
seems
> > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
> isn't
> > > red
> > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my previous
> > post.
> > > I
> > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
speed
> > is
> > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> faster,
> > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > >
> > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
> under
> > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
fine,
> > > good
> > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to do
> with
> > > the
> > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
> does
> > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum canister
> > maybe
> > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
without
> > any
> > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to
> her
> > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that
I
> > > call
> > > > on
> > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never
got
> > > > around
> > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
> about
> > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> exhaust
> > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
except
> > for
> > > > some
> > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
can't
> > see
> > > > this
> > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I
> > > forgot
> > > > to
> > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
> don't
> > > get
> > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
back
> > off
> > > > the
> > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out
of
> > the
> > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory
you
> > > have,
> > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> > pressing
> > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus
I
> > > have
> > > > to
> > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
> fast,
> > as
> > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
plus
> > from
> > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
dist
> > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns,
> > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear?
> > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph,
> > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
> your
> > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply

> > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> > floor)
> > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > accelerating)?
> > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
those
> > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > mentioned
> > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT
for
> > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> dropping
> > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> results
> > in
> > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually
> > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
(you're
> > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various
> > > reason
> > > > > why
> > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
timing.
> > But
> > > > > what's
> > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen
> when
> > I
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> > vacuum
> > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a
> > local
> > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
burnt
> or
> > > > leaky
> > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> solution
> > is
> > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the
> > > valves,
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that
the
> > > > valves
> > > > > > were
> > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs
are
> a
> > > tan
> > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set
them
> > > > loose,
> > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > determined
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
just
> > > added
> > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the
engine
> > > being
> > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
have
> > any
> > > > luck
> > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > > clearances,
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage
so
> I
> > > can
> > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
> better
> > > > now?
> > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd51@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot
> > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near
> the
> > > top.
> > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
> cause.
> > > The
> > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
burnt
> > or
> > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering
> > when
> > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
clearance
> > was
> > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too
> > tight,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not
> > seat
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances,
4
> > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning
the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up
but
> > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
looser
> > than
> > > > too
> > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> > shape,
> > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this
> > > mistake
> > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
miles
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a
few
> > > hours
> > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had
> set
> > > the
> > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up
> in
> > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
> before
> > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the
> top
> > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
wrecker,
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing
the
> > > > engines,
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> vacuum
> > > > lines
> > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The
86
> > > model
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part
> for
> > > the
> > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on
the
> > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for
> an
> > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
> There
> > > are
> > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other
> for
> > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a
lot
> > > less.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > > explaining
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal
> > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
> engine
> > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > description
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> > either
> > > of
> > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you
rev
> > up
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> > other.
> > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> therefore
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car
> is
> > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the
one
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> driveability
> > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's
> > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If
> this
> > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily
> to
> > > see
> > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor
> > next.
> > > If
> > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after
all
> > > these
> > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not
> an
> > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the
> car
> > is
> > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> computer
> > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out.
> I'm
> > > not
> > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2
> > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out
the
> > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were
> > stuck,
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and
> > > greased
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > problem.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> > greased
> > > > it,
> > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
advance
> > > module
> > > > > as
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to
the
> > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on
> the
> > > > line
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
maybe
> 2
> > > or
> > > > 3
> > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > definitely
> > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> attached,
> > > > revved
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed
> the
> > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
> then
> > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car
for
> a
> > > > drive
> > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> 100Kph,
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Hi Bob
Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE holds
vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference: this
time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for the
problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red around
100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow I'm
thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the valve
lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
(added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you know
how that turns out
Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
Mike
"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> Hey Bob
> Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
going
> into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the car.
> I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
>
> Mike
>
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > The car is a manual Transmission
> > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > Try one more test:
> > >
> > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > >
> > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Update:
> > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
> look
> > at
> > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
> seems
> > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust manifold
> > isn't
> > > > red
> > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
previous
> > > post.
> > > > I
> > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
> speed
> > > is
> > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> > faster,
> > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car is
> > under
> > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
> fine,
> > > > good
> > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to
do
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The transmission
> > does
> > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
canister
> > > maybe
> > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> without
> > > any
> > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife
to
> > her
> > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested
that
> I
> > > > call
> > > > > on
> > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never
> got
> > > > > around
> > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you
> > about
> > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> except
> > > for
> > > > > some
> > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
> can't
> > > see
> > > > > this
> > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY
I
> > > > forgot
> > > > > to
> > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I
> > don't
> > > > get
> > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
> back
> > > off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed
out
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory
> you
> > > > have,
> > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that,
> > > pressing
> > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating,
thus
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > to
> > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as
> > fast,
> > > as
> > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
> plus
> > > from
> > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph.
> > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
> dist
> > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
turns,
> > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas
> > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
gear?
> > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
130Kph,
> > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing,
> > your
> > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
simply
>
> > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the
> > > floor)
> > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
> those
> > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > > mentioned
> > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT
> for
> > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that
> > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> > dropping
> > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> > results
> > > in
> > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
actually
> > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> (you're
> > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
various
> > > > reason
> > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> timing.
> > > But
> > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
happen
> > when
> > > I
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out
a
> > > local
> > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
> burnt
> > or
> > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> > solution
> > > is
> > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at
the
> > > > valves,
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that
> the
> > > > > valves
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs
> are
> > a
> > > > tan
> > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set
> them
> > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > > determined
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
> just
> > > > added
> > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the
> engine
> > > > being
> > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
> have
> > > any
> > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot
> > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring th car to a friend's heated
garage
> so
> > I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running
> > better
> > > > > now?
> > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red
Hot
> > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
near
> > the
> > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the
> > cause.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
> burnt
> > > or
> > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
wondering
> > > when
> > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> clearance
> > > was
> > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's
too
> > > tight,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float
(not
> > > seat
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
clearances,
> 4
> > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning
> the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up
> but
> > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> looser
> > > than
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent
> > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made
this
> > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
> miles
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a
> few
> > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I
had
> > set
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it
up
> > in
> > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road
> > before
> > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's
the
> > top
> > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> wrecker,
> > > but
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing
> the
> > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> > vacuum
> > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The
> 86
> > > > model
> > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
part
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on
> the
> > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance
on
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part
for
> > an
> > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now).
> > There
> > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
other
> > for
> > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a
> lot
> > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002)
> > > > explaining
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
normal
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the
> > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > > description
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at
> > > either
> > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you
> rev
> > > up
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the
> > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > therefore
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the
car
> > is
> > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the
> one
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
that's
> > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds.
If
> > this
> > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
temporarily
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
sensor
> > > next.
> > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after
> all
> > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter
(not
> > an
> > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it
out.
> > I'm
> > > > not
> > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket
O2
> > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust
> > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out
> the
> > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
were
> > > stuck,
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle
and
> > > > greased
> > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > > problem.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and
> > > greased
> > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> advance
> > > > module
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to
> the
> > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump)
on
> > the
> > > > > line
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
> maybe
> > 2
> > > > or
> > > > > 3
> > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > > definitely
> > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC,
now
> > > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > attached,
> > > > > revved
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
fixed
> > the
> > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and
> > then
> > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car
> for
> > a
> > > > > drive
> > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped
and
> > the
> > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> > 100Kph,
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

Hi Bob
Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a thousand of
an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20 min,
the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car, until I
can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was thinking
that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked. Anyhoo
I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured out.
Cheers
Mike

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE holds
> vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
> same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference:
this
> time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for the
> problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red around
> 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow I'm
> thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the valve
> lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you know
> how that turns out
> Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> Mike
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hey Bob
> > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
> going
> > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the
car.
> > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way I
> > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > Try one more test:
> > > >
> > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > >
> > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Update:
> > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took a
> > look
> > > at
> > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be red,
> > seems
> > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
manifold
> > > isn't
> > > > > red
> > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> previous
> > > > post.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the engine
> > speed
> > > > is
> > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is driving
> > > faster,
> > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the car
is
> > > under
> > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car drives
> > fine,
> > > > > good
> > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has to
> do
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
transmission
> > > does
> > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> canister
> > > > maybe
> > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> > without
> > > > any
> > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife
> to
> > > her
> > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested
> that
> > I
> > > > > call
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
never
> > got
> > > > > > around
> > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to
you
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the
> > > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> > except
> > > > for
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You
> > can't
> > > > see
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
SORRY
> I
> > > > > forgot
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If
I
> > > don't
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll
> > back
> > > > off
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed
> out
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
theory
> > you
> > > > > have,
> > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
that,
> > > > pressing
> > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating,
> thus
> > I
> > > > > have
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car
as
> > > fast,
> > > > as
> > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100
> > plus
> > > > from
> > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on fire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
100Kph.
> > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective
> > dist
> > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the
> > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
> turns,
> > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the
gas
> > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
> gear?
> > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
timing,
> > > your
> > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
> simply
> >
> > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the
> > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to
the
> > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of
> > those
> > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT)
> > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at
WOT
> > for
> > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit
that
> > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum
> > > dropping
> > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture
> > > results
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> actually
> > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> > (you're
> > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> various
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> > timing.
> > > > But
> > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> happen
> > > when
> > > > I
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
defective
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking
out
> a
> > > > local
> > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was
> > burnt
> > > or
> > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the
> > > solution
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at
> the
> > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed
that
> > the
> > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
plugs
> > are
> > > a
> > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally
set
> > them
> > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I
> > > > > determined
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I
> > just
> > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for he
> > engine
> > > > > being
> > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't
> > have
> > > > any
> > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the
hot
> > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> garage
> > so
> > > I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
running
> > > better
> > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red
> Hot
> > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
> near
> > > the
> > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to
the
> > > cause.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded,
> > burnt
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> wondering
> > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > clearance
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's
> too
> > > > tight,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float
> (not
> > > > seat
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> clearances,
> > 4
> > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
turning
> > the
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed
up
> > but
> > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> > looser
> > > > than
> > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
decent
> > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made
> this
> > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10
> > miles
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up
a
> > few
> > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I
> had
> > > set
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed
it
> up
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
road
> > > before
> > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's
> the
> > > top
> > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > wrecker,
> > > > but
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
missing
> > the
> > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the
> > > vacuum
> > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem.
The
> > 86
> > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
> part
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph)
on
> > the
> > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
advance
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs.
The
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part
> for
> > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
now).
> > > There
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
> other
> > > for
> > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for
a
> > lot
> > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
(V1-30-002)
> > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> normal
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your
> > > > > description
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction
at
> > > > either
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If
you
> > rev
> > > > up
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not
the
> > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > > therefore
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the
> car
> > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is
the
> > one
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
> that's
> > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds.
> If
> > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> temporarily
> > > to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> sensor
> > > > next.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
after
> > all
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter
> (not
> > > an
> > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when
> the
> > > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it
> out.
> > > I'm
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket
> O2
> > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of
> > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
exhaust
> > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning
out
> > the
> > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
> were
> > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle
> and
> > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my
> > > > problem.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up
and
> > > > greased
> > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> > advance
> > > > > module
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached
to
> > the
> > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
pump)
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > line
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much,
> > maybe
> > > 2
> > > > > or
> > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is
> > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC,
> now
> > > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > > attached,
> > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
> fixed
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees
and
> > > then
> > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the
car
> > for
> > > a
> > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped
> and
> > > the
> > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at
> > > 100Kph,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bob Bailin

Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
engine.

As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.

You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
suffer.

I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.

And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
the manifold.

And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.

Bob

"Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Bob
> Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
> adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a thousand
of
> an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20 min,
> the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
> doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car, until
I
> can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was thinking
> that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
Anyhoo
> I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured out.
> Cheers
> Mike
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
holds
> > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still the
> > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small difference:
> this
> > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for
the
> > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
around
> > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow
I'm
> > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
valve
> > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
know
> > how that turns out
> > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > Mike
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hey Bob
> > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow I'm
> > going
> > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for the
> car.
> > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a way
I
> > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > >
> > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min, took
a
> > > look
> > > > at
> > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be
red,
> > > seems
> > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> manifold
> > > > isn't
> > > > > > red
> > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> > previous
> > > > > post.
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
engine
> > > speed
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
driving
> > > > faster,
> > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the
car
> is
> > > > under
> > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
drives
> > > fine,
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem has
to
> > do
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> transmission
> > > > does
> > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> > canister
> > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over drive
> > > without
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am? LOL
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the
wife
> > to
> > > > her
> > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
suggested
> > that
> > > I
> > > > > > call
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it.
> > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
> never
> > > got
> > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to
> you
> > > > about
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that
the
> > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true,
> > > except
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold).
You
> > > can't
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
> SORRY
> > I
> > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor.
If
> I
> > > > don't
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal,
I'll
> > > back
> > > > > off
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
speed
> > out
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> theory
> > > you
> > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
> that,
> > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
accelerating,
> > thus
> > > I
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car
> as
> > > > fast,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at
100
> > > plus
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
fire.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
defective
> > > dist
> > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when
the
> > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine
> > turns,
> > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the
> gas
> > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower
> > gear?
> > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> timing,
> > > > your
> > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed
> > simply
> > >
> > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into
the
> > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to
> the
> > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One
of
> > > those
> > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
WOT)
> > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at
> WOT
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit
> that
> > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
vacuum
> > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
mixture
> > > > results
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> > actually
> > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever
> > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> > various
> > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was
> > > timing.
> > > > > But
> > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> > happen
> > > > when
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> defective
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking
> out
> > a
> > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem
was
> > > burnt
> > > > or
> > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly andthe
> > > > solution
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked
at
> > the
> > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed
> that
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
> plugs
> > > are
> > > > a
> > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally
> set
> > > them
> > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After
I
> > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold,
I
> > > just
> > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for
the
> > > engine
> > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
don't
> > > have
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the
> hot
> > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> > garage
> > > so
> > > > I
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> running
> > > > better
> > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on
Red
> > Hot
> > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread
> > near
> > > > the
> > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to
> the
> > > > cause.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
retarded,
> > > burnt
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > wondering
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > > clearance
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
it's
> > too
> > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
float
> > (not
> > > > > seat
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > clearances,
> > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> turning
> > > the
> > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
warmed
> up
> > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly
> > > looser
> > > > > than
> > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
> decent
> > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
made
> > this
> > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for
10
> > > miles
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right
up
> a
> > > few
> > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that
I
> > had
> > > > set
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed
> it
> > up
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
> road
> > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum,
it's
> > the
> > > > top
> > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > > wrecker,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> missing
> > > the
> > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse
the
> > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem.
> The
> > > 86
> > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new
> > part
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph)
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> advance
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs.
> The
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate
part
> > for
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
> now).
> > > > There
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the
> > other
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard
for
> a
> > > lot
> > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of
> > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> > normal
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from
your
> > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
suction
> at
> > > > > either
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If
> you
> > > rev
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not
> the
> > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is
> > > > therefore
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when
the
> > car
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is
> the
> > > one
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one
> > that's
> > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
speeds.
> > If
> > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > temporarily
> > > > to
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> > sensor
> > > > > next.
> > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
> after
> > > all
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
voltmeter
> > (not
> > > > an
> > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
when
> > the
> > > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the
> > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean
it
> > out.
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
Aftermarket
> > O2
> > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot
of
> > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> exhaust
> > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning
> out
> > > the
> > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights
> > were
> > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
spindle
> > and
> > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of
my
> > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up
> and
> > > > > greased
> > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum
> > > advance
> > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
attached
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
> pump)
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
much,
> > > maybe
> > > > 2
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car
is
> > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
BTDC,
> > now
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light
> > > > attached,
> > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I
> > fixed
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees
> and
> > > > then
> > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the
> car
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
stopped
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive
at
> > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Mike Wilson

I agree it could be a design flaw, however Hyundai would have taken care of
the problem by now (1986-91)
I'll research the problem, check to see if the dis has enough vacuum as you
are suggesting.
BTW, the dis timing is around 6% BTDC, I left the dis timing like this
becacause I knew it to be correct. When I said that I changed the dis timing
to 12% BTDC, and got a posiative result, I changed it back to the
recommended specs 4 BTDC +-1
I found 4 degrees to be a little sluggish and 6 degrees to be right on the
money.
With the setup the way I have it right now, releasing my foot from the gas
pedal sharply doesn't produce any back fire, however I think you ment if I
had the engine set to 12 degrees BTDC. That is a good theory that you have,
I'll give it a shot. One thing I forgot to mention in my last post...I has
some white deposits on #1 and #2 spark plugs, after readjusting the valve
lash with the engine hot, the plugs are fine, funny...when I lived in
Ottawa, I worked as an auto mechanic for 7 years and have known lots of
mechnics to add a couple of thou to the specs so the can adjust valves (over
head cam) on a cold engine. This methiod has always worked great, I gess in
my case I have valve margins that are warn unevenly producing a little bit
of a gap. I'll definatly plug the air injection system and see if that makes
a difference, however it may be a few days before I get back to you as I
have to reinstall Windows XP having a internet problem and did everything
that is humanly possiable to fix the problem and no go, so gots to reinstall
the OS. BTW if you have any computer, hardware, software, networking
problems, I'm the man. My specility is operating system trouble shooting. I
worked for Compaq for 4+ years in the commercial divsion and have 10 years
of combined trouble shooting experience.
Anyhoo I'll do a few tests on the car and let ya know.

Mike

"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:br8qm6$kq9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> Thanks for the update. I've never driven my brother's 91 Fuel Inj
> Excel at that high a speed for an extended period, but I did notice
> that the exhaust manifold heat shield that I replaced a couple of
> years ago looks pretty beat up for such a relatively young part,
> which may mean that this may just be a design flaw with this
> engine.
>
> As I've said before, if you're pushing the engine to keep it going
> at 130Kph, you may not be supplying it with enough ported
> vacuum to keep the dist at its maximum advance. If you have a
> vacuum gauge, try putting it inline using a tee with the hose going
> to the dist advance, and see what the readings are at 100 vs 130.
>
> You can always advance the base timing from 12 to, say, 14 BTDC
> as long as the engine doesn't knock and performance doesn't
> suffer.
>
> I doubt there's a carb problem, but if it was running too rich at full
> throttle, it should backfire a bit when you let up sharply on the gas.
> Other than a weak power valve spring or slightly clogged secondary
> air bleeds, there's not a whole lot to adjust on a carb.
>
> And once again, check out the air injection hose to the exhaust
> manifold. Block it off, plug it, whatever, to stop any air from entering
> the manifold.
>
> And for what it's worth, I won't have a 91 Excel to work on anymore.
> My brother managed to effectively total his on a slippery interstate
> last week during that New England storm. Fishtailing and bouncing
> from an adjacent car to a jersey barrier and back, even at a really
> low speed, will tend to do that. And damn, I just got it to pass a
> state emissions test for the first time in 6 years thanks to a new
> catalytic converter I installed over Thanksgiving. The new part just
> messed up the car's karma, and it was doomed.
>
> Bob
>
> "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:vtddldjlhdc5d@corp.supernews.com...
> > Hi Bob
> > Not sure if your still with me on this problem, I'm 90% sure I got the
> > problem nailed. The new distributor made the car work better, along with
> > adjusting the valve lash when the car is hot (remember I added a
thousand
> of
> > an inch to the specs on a cold engine) Drove the car at 130Kph for 20
min,
> > the exhaust manifold is dark, dark, red, any lower speed and the problem
> > doesn't occur. So for now I'll just have to take it easy on the car,
until
> I
> > can find out what is causing the slight problem at 130 Kph. I was
thinking
> > that, the carb might not be set up properly, something I overlooked.
> Anyhoo
> > I just wanted to let you know that I got most of the problem figured
out.
> > Cheers
> > Mike
> >
> > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:vt8n82rtbg67f3@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Hi Bob
> > > Got the new distributor, the new vacuum advance module works fine IE
> holds
> > > vacuum unlike the old one. The car run a load better now, still
the
> > > same problem with the exhaust manifold except for one small
difference:
> > this
> > > time I have to really drive the **** out of the car 130Kph for the for
> the
> > > problem to occur, before the manifold would start to turn dark red
> around
> > > 100 Kph, now if I drive at 100 the manifold isn't red at all. tomorrow
> I'm
> > > thinking about changing the distributor all together and setting the
> valve
> > > lash to the hot setting as I set the valve lash with the engine clold
> > > (added a thousand of an inch for the engine being cold) will let you
> know
> > > how that turns out
> > > Cheers!!!!!!!!!!
> > > Mike
> > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:vsq4nejgsuh0bc@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Hey Bob
> > > > Haven't tried that test yet, been busy with family stuff. Tomorrow
I'm
> > > going
> > > > into town to wrecker to see if I can get a used distribution for
the
> > car.
> > > > I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your help so far.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:vsf8pub01h1u9e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > The car is a manual Transmission
> > > > > That'a good test to try. I'll let you know what the result is.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bq6t98$cmk$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > I was going to say that I didn't expect this either, but in a
way
> I
> > > > > > did, because if it's dist-advance-related, the rpms are the key.
> > > > > > Try one more test:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Set the base timing back to 12° BTDC, or whatever it will take
> > > > > > without knocking or misfiring. On most cars with a properly
> > > > > > working distributor, this would cause a *lot* of pinging under
> > > > > > load, but since your vacuum advance is questionable at best,
> > > > > > this extra base advance may just compensate to give you better
> > > > > > results at high rpms. It won't solve your problem, but it should
> > > > > > at least a) reduce the slight red glow at 100Kph to no red glow,
> > > > > > and b) reduce the bright red at 130Kph to something less.
> > > > > > IOW, there should be some noticeable improvement, even if
> > > > > > it doesn't solve the problem completely (because the vacuum
> > > > > > advance provides an extra 16° of advance, and you're only
> > > > > > providing an extra 8° using this method).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, is this a manual or automatic (I'm still not clear)?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:vsb8q2cpp6e1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > Drove the car at 130Kph, 4,000rpm, in 4th for about 10 min,
took
> a
> > > > look
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > the manifold, it's red hot. I thought for sure it wouldn't be
> red,
> > > > seems
> > > > > > > like the problem starts to happen around 3,000rpm and up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:vsaafssrmtv7d2@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > Hey Bob
> > > > > > > > Drove the car for 20 min, in 4th, at 100 Kph, the exhaust
> > manifold
> > > > > isn't
> > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > at all, not even "very, very dark red" as I mentioned on my
> > > previous
> > > > > > post.
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > guess the problem can't be cause by vacuum advance as the
> engine
> > > > speed
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > higher in 4th then in over drive. One thing I'll try is
> driving
> > > > > faster,
> > > > > > > > let's say 120Kph, in 4th, and see what the result is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I'm thinking it that the problem only happens when the
> car
> > is
> > > > > under
> > > > > > > > load. This would suggest a valve problem, however the car
> drives
> > > > fine,
> > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > acceleration, doesn't spit and sputter. Maybe the problem
has
> to
> > > do
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fact that I'm in over drive, vacuum switch thing. The
> > transmission
> > > > > does
> > > > > > > > require vacuum for it to switch into over drive, the vacuum
> > > canister
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > leaking slightly, however the car does switch into over
drive
> > > > without
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > problems. Are you as confused about this problem as I am?
LOL
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:vs8fvilqrrtt95@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the
> wife
> > > to
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > > > prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they
> suggested
> > > that
> > > > I
> > > > > > > call
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in
it.
> > > > > > > > > Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I
> > never
> > > > got
> > > > > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back
to
> > you
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that
> the
> > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is
true,
> > > > except
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold).
> You
> > > > can't
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night.
> > SORRY
> > > I
> > > > > > > forgot
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > mention this yesterday.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the
floor.
> If
> > I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal,
> I'll
> > > > back
> > > > > > off
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of
> speed
> > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good
> > theory
> > > > you
> > > > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > > because there is a point when accelerating in over drive,
> > that,
> > > > > > pressing
> > > > > > > > > down the foot feed, actually stops the car from
> accelerating,
> > > thus
> > > > I
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > back her off a bit.
> > > > > > > > > One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the
car
> > as
> > > > > fast,
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at
> 100
> > > > plus
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > time to time without the worry of something catching on
> fire.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'll get back to you tomorrow
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mike AKA Deefer Dog
> > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Here's a test for you:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at
> > 100Kph.
> > > > > > > > > > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a
> defective
> > > > dist
> > > > > > > > > > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when
> the
> > > > > > > > > > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the
engine
> > > turns,
> > > > > > > > > > the more advance is required because the burn speed of
the
> > gas
> > > > > > > > > > remains constant).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a
lower
> > > gear?
> > > > > > > > > > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at
> > > 130Kph,
> > > > > > > > > > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the
> > timing,
> > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower
speed
> > > simply
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into
> the
> > > > > > > > > > manifold, where they continue to burn.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Try it and let me know.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal
to
> > the
> > > > > > floor)
> > > > > > > > > > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're
> > > > > > accelerating)?
> > > > > > > > > > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One
> of
> > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at
> WOT)
> > > > > > mentioned
> > > > > > > > > > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running
at
> > WOT
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power
circuit
> > that
> > > > > > > > > > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold
> vacuum
> > > > > dropping
> > > > > > > > > > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich
> mixture
> > > > > results
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one
> > > actually
> > > > > > > > > > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly
ever
> > > > (you're
> > > > > > > > > > supposed to downshift instead).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found
> > > various
> > > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > > why
> > > > > > > > > > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem
was
> > > > timing.
> > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > what's
> > > > > > > > > > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't
> > > happen
> > > > > when
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a
> > defective
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be
checking
> > out
> > > a
> > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > wrecker
> > > > > > > > > > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem
> was
> > > > burnt
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > leaky
> > > > > > > > > > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and
the
> > > > > solution
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I
looked
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > > valves,
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I
assumed
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > valves
> > > > > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > > > > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark
> > plugs
> > > > are
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > tan
> > > > > > > > > > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I
originally
> > set
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > loose,
> > > > > > > > > > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing.
After
> I
> > > > > > > determined
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was
cold,
> I
> > > > just
> > > > > > > added
> > > > > > > > > > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for
> the
> > > > engine
> > > > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > cold.
> > > > > > > > > > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I
> don't
> > > > have
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > luck
> > > > > > > > > > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to
the
> > hot
> > > > > > > > clearances,
> > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated
> > > garage
> > > > so
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > tear
> > > > > > > > > > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is
> > running
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > > now?
> > > > > > > > > > LOL
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > > > > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on
> Red
> > > Hot
> > > > > > > Exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this
thread
> > > near
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > top.
> > > > > > > > > > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as
to
> > the
> > > > > cause.
> > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing
> retarded,
> > > > burnt
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was
> > > wondering
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > > > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve
> > > > clearance
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > > set properly when you put things back together? If
> it's
> > > too
> > > > > > tight,
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to
> float
> > > (not
> > > > > > seat
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the
> > > clearances,
> > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after
> > turning
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully
> warmed
> > up
> > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be
slightly
> > > > looser
> > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in
> > decent
> > > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > > > > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I
> made
> > > this
> > > > > > > mistake
> > > > > > > > > > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for
> 10
> > > > miles
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started
right
> up
> > a
> > > > few
> > > > > > > hours
> > > > > > > > > > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems
that
> I
> > > had
> > > > > set
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply
warmed
> > it
> > > up
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the
> > road
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > > > > setting the hot clearance.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok we'll do that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum,
> it's
> > > the
> > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > chamber
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local
> > > > wrecker,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were
> > missing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > engines,
> > > > > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse
> the
> > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > lines
> > > > > > > > > > > (sorry
> > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the
problem.
> > The
> > > > 86
> > > > > > > model
> > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a
new
> > > part
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > car.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Again
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100
Kph)
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > highway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of
> > advance
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned
HCs.
> > The
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate
> part
> > > for
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right
> > now).
> > > > > There
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny,
the
> > > other
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > manual.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard
> for
> > a
> > > > lot
> > > > > > > less.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the
TSB's.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article
> > (V1-30-002)
> > > > > > > explaining
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > feedback
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots
of
> > > > > diagrams.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for
> > > normal
> > > > > > vacuum
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance
when
> > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from
> your
> > > > > > > description
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no
> suction
> > at
> > > > > > either
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle.
If
> > you
> > > > rev
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but
not
> > the
> > > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other
is
> > > > > therefore
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when
> the
> > > car
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple
is
> > the
> > > > one
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold
> > > > > driveability
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the
one
> > > that's
> > > > > > shot,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway
> speeds.
> > > If
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses
> > > temporarily
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2
> > > sensor
> > > > > > next.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out
> > after
> > > > all
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital
> voltmeter
> > > (not
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > analog!)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector
> when
> > > the
> > > > > car
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and
the
> > > > > computer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean
> it
> > > out.
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine.
> Aftermarket
> > > O2
> > > > > > > sensors
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a
lot
> of
> > > > > > > penetrating
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the
> > exhaust
> > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > without breaking it off.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing
cleaning
> > out
> > > > the
> > > > > > EGR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > passage in the intake manifold.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca>
wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor
weights
> > > were
> > > > > > stuck,
> > > > > > > > > they
> > > > > > > > > > > > moved
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights,
> spindle
> > > and
> > > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > up.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part
of
> my
> > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it
up
> > and
> > > > > > greased
> > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > adjusted
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > igniter (.030 ")
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the
vacuum
> > > > advance
> > > > > > > module
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line
> attached
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > bottom
> > > > > > > > > > > > nipple,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand
> > pump)
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > line
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > build
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very
> much,
> > > > maybe
> > > > > 2
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > > > > mm.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car
> is
> > > > > > definitely
> > > > > > > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees
> BTDC,
> > > now
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing
light
> > > > > attached,
> > > > > > > > revved
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before
I
> > > fixed
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > distributor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2
degrees
> > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > advancing
> > > > > > > > > > > > BTDC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took
the
> > car
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > drive
> > > > > > > > > > down
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min,
> stopped
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over
drive
> at
> > > > > 100Kph,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > exhaust
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any
> > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>