Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

In <49825b1b$0$4870$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.co m> "Derek Gee" <dgeeSPAMSUCKS@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> writes:

>"Michael" <micoder@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:fG1gl.39245$E43.34159@fe01.news.easynews.com ...
>> I have not heard Honda or Toyota begging for tax money. I wonder why.

>Because they haven't needed to beg - the Japanese goverment happily
>subsidizes them. For example, former Toyota exec Jim Press let it slip that
>the Japanese government subsidized the development of the electric batteries
>used in the Prius.

I guess you never heard of the "United States Advanced Battery Consortium"
and lots and lots of similar programs by the US Gov't.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

<clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:tth4o4pruricakls1pvolnmp7jj598o8q2@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:36:14 -0500, "C. E. White"
> <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>>news:elmop-1564CD.12065629012009@mara100-84.onlink.net...
>>> In article <lrmdnSZiKtshWhzUnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@ptd.net>,
>>> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That brings to mind all the sludged up Toyota engines.
>>>
>>> And the Honda transmissions.
>>>
>>> So let's see: Toyota screws up once. Honda screws up once.
>>>
>>> GM, Ford, and Chrysler have developed screwing up to an
>>> institutional
>>> art. Virtually everything they have done for 30 years has been a
>>> major
>>> screw-up, from the top down.
>>>
>>> Yeah. Toyota screwed up once. OK.
>>
>>Please. This is total crap. Toyota screws up all the time. Back in
>>2007 Toyota led the industry in recalls. The new Turdra is one huge
>>screw up - broken camshafts, defective transmissions, pick-up boxes
>>so
>>weak you cannot leave the tailgate open. Or my SO's RAV4 - the
>>worst
>>crusie control I have ever used. It is unusable at certain speeds.
>
> At what speeds? Cruise is NOT to be used in urban areas at 30 mph.

Try 60 mpn on an open highway.

>> How
>>about all the ball joint failures on trucks from a coupkle of years
>>back - these fauilures killed people.
> And how many ball joints did my Pontiac TransSport go through?
> I replaced an average of better than one per year over the 6 years I
> owned that heap.

OK so some Pontiacs are just as bad as some Toyotas - sort of my
point. Toyota's have problems, just like vehicles from other
manufacturers.

> How about the rotten egg
>>smelling catalytic converters?
>
> High sulphur gasoline is not a conveerter problem. A rich mixture
> can
> contribute to it, but the main problem is BAD GAS. ANd the problem
> OST
> DEFINITELY was not limited to Toyota.

But Toyotas seemed especially prone to this problem and Toyota seemed
the least willing to address it with changes. The definitely followed
the standard Toyota line - "It's not Toyota's fault, you are doing
something wrong."

>> How about the Corollas with failing
>>rear suspensions.
>
> I think you mean the tercels in 1981?
> EVERYBODY had rust problems back then. ANd as soon as they realized
> there was a problem (which was only a problem in the "rust belt"
> with
> high road salt use) they recalled the affected vehicles for testing
> and remediation - or replacement if rust was evident.
>
> I did several hundred of them.
>
>
>>The list goes on. For some unknown reason, Toyota
>>seems to get a free ride when they build crap. And there is the
>>whole
>>Toyota culture when it comes to problems - deny, lie, deny...repeat
>>as
>>necessary.
>>
>>Ed
>>
> GM putting 6 cyl trannys in 8 cyl cars
> GM putting 6 cyl tranny parts in 8 cyl trannys.
> The GM 3.8 V6 intake problems.
> The GM 2.8/3.1 intake problems.
> The GM 307 camshaft problems.
> The GM 3.4 liter "time bomb"
> The Vega
> These are just a few LONG TERM problems GM got away with.

I did't say GM vehicles don't sometimes have problesm. I was merely
pointing out that Toyotya does also. And don't forget, for many years
we never saw "first generation" Toyota models. The bugs were often
worked out in other market. Since Toyota has been selling more US
specific models, we are seeign a lot more problems.

>
> When Toyota screws up they fix it in relatively short order.

Yeah right. It took NHTSA 3+ years to force Toyota to "voluntarily"
recall the trucks with the bad ball joints. Toyota "voluntarily"
initiated a recall after NHTSA sent them a letter saying they were
about to issue a mandatory recall (something NHTSA almost never does -
usually manufacturers roll over as soon as an inviestigation indicates
there is a problem). And to this day, Toyota (and Toyota fanatics) try
to blame all the sludge problems on Customers (while never exaplinaing
why only certain Toyota models have the problem).

OK, clearly, I didn't quite get the Toyota mantra right. Instead of
"deny, lie, deny...repeat as necessary" I should have said "deny, lie,
deny, lie, say everyone else is worse, deny some more, try to hide the
problem, claim it wasn't Toyota's fault, say GM is a lot worse, claim
it was the Customer's fault, deny again, repeat as necessary." Oh what
a feeling, moving formward, this changes everything, etc, etc, etc.

In my memory no auto company has been as successful as Toyotra in
scamming the public. If I was running GM, the first thing I would do
is hire Toyota's propoganda minister.

Just to be clear - I don't think Toyota vehicles are particaulrly bad,
I don't think they are particualrly good either. Some or good, some
are bad, most are mediocre. I'd be driving a Tacoma today, if they
weren't priced thousands more than a Nissan Frontier.

Ed

Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

The Japanese government has been subsidizing ALL of it manufacturers, ever
since the end of WWII, get real.


"danny burstein" <dannyb@panix.com> wrote in message
news:gltmvc$loq$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In <49825b1b$0$4870$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.co m> "Derek Gee"
> <dgeeSPAMSUCKS@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> writes:
>
>>"Michael" <micoder@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>news:fG1gl.39245$E43.34159@fe01.news.easynews.co m...
>>> I have not heard Honda or Toyota begging for tax money. I wonder why.
>
>>Because they haven't needed to beg - the Japanese goverment happily
>>subsidizes them. For example, former Toyota exec Jim Press let it slip
>>that
>>the Japanese government subsidized the development of the electric
>>batteries
>>used in the Prius.
>
> I guess you never heard of the "United States Advanced Battery Consortium"
> and lots and lots of similar programs by the US Gov't.
>
>
> --
> __________________________________________________ ___
> Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
> dannyb@panix.com
> [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:38:49 -0500, "C. E. White"
<cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote:

Or my SO's RAV4 - the
>>>worst
>>>crusie control I have ever used. It is unusable at certain speeds.
>>
>> At what speeds? Cruise is NOT to be used in urban areas at 30 mph.
>
>Try 60 mpn on an open highway.

Then something was wrong, and it was fixable. It is NOT a common
complaint.
>
>>> How
>>>about all the ball joint failures on trucks from a coupkle of years
>>>back - these fauilures killed people.
>> And how many ball joints did my Pontiac TransSport go through?
>> I replaced an average of better than one per year over the 6 years I
>> owned that heap.
>
>OK so some Pontiacs are just as bad as some Toyotas - sort of my
>point. Toyota's have problems, just like vehicles from other
>manufacturers.
>
>> How about the rotten egg
>>>smelling catalytic converters?
>>
>> High sulphur gasoline is not a conveerter problem. A rich mixture
>> can
>> contribute to it, but the main problem is BAD GAS. ANd the problem
>> OST
>> DEFINITELY was not limited to Toyota.
>
>But Toyotas seemed especially prone to this problem and Toyota seemed
>the least willing to address it with changes. The definitely followed
>the standard Toyota line - "It's not Toyota's fault, you are doing
>something wrong."
>
No more prone to the problem than other vehicles of the time.
In the '80s and early '90s in particular, Chevy and Chrysler had REAL
problems with the rotton egg smell - and it was significantly worse in
some geographic areas than others - depending on what refinery the
fuel came from. We had several that would stink like crazy on Esso
(EXXON) and Texaco, and not at all on shell, for instance.
>>> How about the Corollas with failing
>>>rear suspensions.
>>
>> I think you mean the tercels in 1981?
>> EVERYBODY had rust problems back then. ANd as soon as they realized
>> there was a problem (which was only a problem in the "rust belt"
>> with
>> high road salt use) they recalled the affected vehicles for testing
>> and remediation - or replacement if rust was evident.
>>
>> I did several hundred of them.

Was I right? Are you talking about a 1981 product?????
>>
>>
>>>The list goes on. For some unknown reason, Toyota
>>>seems to get a free ride when they build crap. And there is the
>>>whole
>>>Toyota culture when it comes to problems - deny, lie, deny...repeat
>>>as
>>>necessary.
>>>
>>>Ed
>>>
>> GM putting 6 cyl trannys in 8 cyl cars
>> GM putting 6 cyl tranny parts in 8 cyl trannys.
>> The GM 3.8 V6 intake problems.
>> The GM 2.8/3.1 intake problems.
>> The GM 307 camshaft problems.
>> The GM 3.4 liter "time bomb"
>> The Vega
>> These are just a few LONG TERM problems GM got away with.
>
>I did't say GM vehicles don't sometimes have problesm.


Sometimes? Cripes, it's been one thing after another, with GM sweeping
it under the rug for DECADES of production.


> I was merely
>pointing out that Toyotya does also. And don't forget, for many years
>we never saw "first generation" Toyota models. The bugs were often
>worked out in other market. Since Toyota has been selling more US
>specific models, we are seeign a lot more problems.
>
>>
>> When Toyota screws up they fix it in relatively short order.
>
>Yeah right. It took NHTSA 3+ years to force Toyota to "voluntarily"
>recall the trucks with the bad ball joints. Toyota "voluntarily"
>initiated a recall after NHTSA sent them a letter saying they were
>about to issue a mandatory recall (something NHTSA almost never does -
>usually manufacturers roll over as soon as an inviestigation indicates
>there is a problem). And to this day, Toyota (and Toyota fanatics) try
>to blame all the sludge problems on Customers (while never exaplinaing
>why only certain Toyota models have the problem).

OK - as for the ball joints - Why was GM not forced to recall the
TransSport/Lumina/et al? The balljoints on those peices of scrap
failed like clockwork. I see a lot of cars on the side of the road in
pothole season with the lower ball joints separated - and come to
think of it, I can't remember a Toyota!!.

A quick GOOGLE shows ball joint recalls on Jeep, Avenger, RX8,Dakota,
Durango,Prowler, Kenworth trucks (that's scary) with TRW parts,
Mitsubishi Eclipse, Prowler, Volvo, replacement MOOG joints for
Honda/Accura, - ant that's just RECENT RECALLS.
Even the venerable K Car had ball-joint recalls.

As for the sludging? It is a PROVEN FACT that vehicles serviced on the
"severe service" schedule did not have the problem in any numbers, if
at all. Same was true on Chrysler 3.7 engines.

The AMERICAN GOVERNMENT pretty well mandated the extended drain
intervals which werer a large part of the problem. (and users of
synthetic oil, following the extended drain intervals also did not
have the problem)
>
>OK, clearly, I didn't quite get the Toyota mantra right. Instead of
>"deny, lie, deny...repeat as necessary" I should have said "deny, lie,
>deny, lie, say everyone else is worse, deny some more, try to hide the
>problem, claim it wasn't Toyota's fault, say GM is a lot worse, claim
>it was the Customer's fault, deny again, repeat as necessary." Oh what
>a feeling, moving formward, this changes everything, etc, etc, etc.

I see a very VERY strong bias.
I spent 25 years actively involved in the automotive service industry.
I've spent most of the rest of my life closely involved.
I can tell you, without GM cars on the road, a large number of
mechanics would be out of a job. For many years Ford and Chrysler were
right up there with them in the "screw-up" Department.
BOTH have improved significantly faster than GM.

I'd buy a Chrysler today. I'm currently driving a 2003 PT.
I'd buy a Ford today - wife currently drives a 1996 Mystique
I'd buy a Honda today - daughter just bought a 2008 Civic. - not
convinced it was the best value for the dollar, but nobody else maid a
small 2dr coupe (not hatch) that was worth looking at - certainly not
GM's offering!!!!!

I'd even buy a Toyota. I've owned 2 in the past and they were perhaps
the most dependable vehicles I've owned - and I've owned 25 or more at
last count and driven countless other "company cars"
>
>In my memory no auto company has been as successful as Toyotra in
>scamming the public. If I was running GM, the first thing I would do
>is hire Toyota's propoganda minister.

Scamming? GM's done a good job of that since the sixties.
>
>Just to be clear - I don't think Toyota vehicles are particaulrly bad,
>I don't think they are particualrly good either. Some or good, some
>are bad, most are mediocre. I'd be driving a Tacoma today, if they
>weren't priced thousands more than a Nissan Frontier.
>
>Ed
>
And worth just about every penny of the difference.
Talk about Nissans and ball joints - saw TWO on the side of the road
in the last week - 10 days. Both kneeling in prayer to the tow-truck
gods.

I wouldn't buy a late model Nissan but if it came down to a Nissan or
a Mitsu, the nissan would still win.

That said, that's the only REAL reason I'm not driving Toyotas the lat
10 years or so. I do NOT buy new vehicles, and Toyotas hold their
value too well. The only reason I bought that darn pontiac was because
I could buy them for such a good price. Six years old they were pretty
well giving them away, while I was paying $6000 for a 6 year old
Chrysler or Ford, and $9000 or more for a Toyota.

I'm back with $6000 Chryslers and Fords.

Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

Mike Hunter wrote:
> The Japanese government has been subsidizing ALL of it manufacturers, ever
> since the end of WWII, get real.
>
>
IIRC, that was at the behest of Shogun MacArthur, who was running the
place at the time. They wanted Japan up and running as a functioning
country again ASAP, to use as a counterweight against the Russians. If
the US hadn't propped up occupied Japan, the Russians would have, and
that simply would not do. Rather than start from scratch, General Doug
simply co-opted the organizations and CEOs that were already in place
supporting the war effort. Same reason he left the Emperor in place, to
keep the general population from freaking. All this was in spite of a
lot of public sentiment back home to deindustrialize Japan and leave
them with nothing but farming and fishing. (Not to mention the ones that
wanted to lay waste to the whole country, just on general principals. It
wasn't like Europe, where most of the rich and powerful people could
trace their ancestry to.)

--
aem sends...

Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

And this is different from the US automakers... how?




On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:40:12 -0500, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

>The Japanese government has been subsidizing ALL of it manufacturers, ever
>since the end of WWII, get real.
>
>
>"danny burstein" <dannyb@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:gltmvc$loq$1@reader1.panix.com...
>> In <49825b1b$0$4870$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.co m> "Derek Gee"
>> <dgeeSPAMSUCKS@twmi.INVALID.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>>"Michael" <micoder@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>news:fG1gl.39245$E43.34159@fe01.news.easynews.c om...
>>>> I have not heard Honda or Toyota begging for tax money. I wonder why.
>>
>>>Because they haven't needed to beg - the Japanese goverment happily
>>>subsidizes them. For example, former Toyota exec Jim Press let it slip
>>>that
>>>the Japanese government subsidized the development of the electric
>>>batteries
>>>used in the Prius.
>>
>> I guess you never heard of the "United States Advanced Battery Consortium"
>> and lots and lots of similar programs by the US Gov't.
>>
>>
>> --
>> __________________________________________________ ___
>> Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
>> dannyb@panix.com
>> [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
>

Re: Why does the auto industry turn out such crap??
 

YOUR uninformed or misinformed comment does not deserve a reply


On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:28:55 -0500, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

>For one we now will pay mothers to kill their babies in third world counties
>
>
>"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:d8fc418e-a75c-4ac1-8b4a-c2f57eddb76c@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> CharlesTheCurmudgeon wrote:
>>
>>> "kevin" <powershot80@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:497c8423$0$5484$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>>
>>> > When did Canada become a 3rd world country.
>>>
>>> Dunno, but America became a third world country on 20 January 2009.
>>>
>> Why?
>