Re: Saab Complaint
 

in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55:

<snip>EuroNCAP</snip>
.... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota

> Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on
> you and launches you headlong into a semi.

( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)

A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such
as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the
detail behind the summary tables.

Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the
same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today
makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3
and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of
years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.

This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as
Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the
standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.

If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of
statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota
and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do
not fair as well as the current Saab range.

Paul

Re: Saab Complaint
 

in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55:

<snip>EuroNCAP</snip>
.... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota

> Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on
> you and launches you headlong into a semi.

( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)

A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such
as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the
detail behind the summary tables.

Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the
same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today
makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3
and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of
years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.

This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as
Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the
standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.

If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of
statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota
and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do
not fair as well as the current Saab range.

Paul

Re: Saab Complaint
 

in article 68a6629.0309070455.1090e75a@posting.google.com, brianb at
bri1600bv@hotmail.com wrote on 07/09/2003 13:55:

<snip>EuroNCAP</snip>
.... And left cross-posted to alt.autos.honda and alt.autos.toyota

> Those 5 stars won't do you much good when the transmission seizes on
> you and launches you headlong into a semi.

( ^ Spelling and grammar corrected)

A semi what? Those 5 stars make sure both myself and the other people (such
as pedestrians) remain alive, rather than "4 star perhaps dead". Read the
detail behind the summary tables.

Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return to the
same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago. Saab today
makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the launch of the 9-3
and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results for Saabs a couple of
years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that tells a different story.

This thread is discussing the 2000 model 9-3, which is not the same car as
Saab produce today. The owner of that car is having a grumble about the
standard and quality of tyres fitted three years ago.

If he's thinking of changing to another car because he feels unsafe in his
2000 model, then he should take a long, hard look at those kinds of
statistics. The other manufacturers that he was looking at, namely Toyota
and Honda, do indeed fair much better than the 2000 model Saab 9-3, but do
not fair as well as the current Saab range.

Paul

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> ,
bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...
> $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my
> Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including
> hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K
> miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the
> "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site,
> but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of
> "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe
> "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know.
>

Brian Mate.
Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price
should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly
more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating
tyres.

Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.

When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so
I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise
between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).

When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's.
Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.

Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are
made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.

Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are
the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your
alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not
a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike,
or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be
through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in
different countries works.
--
Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> ,
bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...
> $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my
> Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including
> hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K
> miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the
> "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site,
> but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of
> "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe
> "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know.
>

Brian Mate.
Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price
should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly
more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating
tyres.

Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.

When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so
I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise
between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).

When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's.
Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.

Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are
made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.

Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are
the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your
alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not
a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike,
or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be
through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in
different countries works.
--
Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> ,
bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...
> $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my
> Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including
> hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K
> miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the
> "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site,
> but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of
> "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe
> "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know.
>

Brian Mate.
Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price
should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly
more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating
tyres.

Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.

When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so
I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise
between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).

When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's.
Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.

Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are
made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.

Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are
the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your
alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not
a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike,
or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be
through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in
different countries works.
--
Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <68a6629.0309070444.7ffb855e@posting.google.com> ,
bri1600bv@hotmail.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...
> $245 is ridiculous for a tire. I had BF Goodrich's installed on my
> Toyota at Wal-mart (80 K miles warantee) for about $60 each including
> hazard, installation, etc. They seem like great tires. It's been 50K
> miles and they have plenty of tread left on them. Maybe not up to the
> "standards" of the stuffy people that seem to be on this Saab site,
> but I like them nonetheless. Also consider getting touring instead of
> "sport" tires. They are made more for comfort and long life. Maybe
> "sport" tires blowout easier? I don't know.
>

Brian Mate.
Even in the "overpriced Quirky" Saab group, we fully agree, That price
should buy you a set of tyres (I'm in the UK, OK LOL). Maybe slightly
more for the set if you buy/fit the correct speed/weight/load rating
tyres.

Michelin are pricey, and some like the Pilot Premacy are excellent.

When my last car(A Skoda) needed tyres, I wanted quality, but budget, so
I fitted BF Goodrich Tourings, because they were the best compromise
between, price, hardness and quality (car is only slow).

When I needed tyres for the Saab, I went with Avon for a set of ZV1's.
Excellent tyre, and not much more than the Goodrich's.

Just for the record, at least in Europe, I think that Goodriches are
made by Michelin as a licensed brand name.

Look after tyres, check the pressure, and condition, make sure they are
the right ratings for your car, and make sure that your
alignment/suspension is set up properly, and not faulty/damaged, and not
a lot can go wrong. If it does, then either you drive over bottle/spike,
or the tyre is faulty. The tyre maker should sort it, that may be
through the car dealer. It may also be direct. Depends on how the law in
different countries works.
--
Carl Robson
(The poster formerly known as Skodapilot)
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com

Re: Saab Complaint
 

Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return
:: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago.
:: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the
:: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results
:: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that
:: tells a different story.

What a load of rubbish Paul. :o)
Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5
the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000
accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as
safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever.
Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend
not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary
picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".

Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm

Cheers!

Re: Saab Complaint
 

Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return
:: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago.
:: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the
:: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results
:: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that
:: tells a different story.

What a load of rubbish Paul. :o)
Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5
the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000
accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as
safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever.
Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend
not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary
picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".

Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm

Cheers!

Re: Saab Complaint
 

Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return
:: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago.
:: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the
:: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results
:: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that
:: tells a different story.

What a load of rubbish Paul. :o)
Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5
the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000
accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as
safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever.
Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend
not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary
picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".

Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm

Cheers!

Re: Saab Complaint
 

Paul Halliday wrote:
:: Since GM took over Saab, it has been a long climb for Saab to return
:: to the same standards of safety they were revered for ten years ago.
:: Saab today makes a good car and a much better car than it did at the
:: launch of the 9-3 and 9-5 model ranges. Look at the EuroNCAP results
:: for Saabs a couple of years ago (such as the 2000 model) - that
:: tells a different story.

What a load of rubbish Paul. :o)
Just recently, Swedish Folksam (insurance company), has named the Saab 9-5
the safest car driving the Swedish streets! They investigated 76.000
accidents in a period from 1996 - 2001 (or was it 2002). No other car is as
safe as the Saab 9-5 (1998-model). So Saab is building safer cars than ever.
Meaning that the Saab 9-5 from -98 up is as safe as anything else. I tend
not to put too much faith in EuroNCAP-results as it gives a stationary
picture. Whereas the Folksam statistic is "reallife".

Here's a link, observe that the Saab 9-3 also is on top:
http://www.folksam.se/engelsk/howsafeisyourcar.htm

Cheers!

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> >>
> >> >> What is your intention here, to start a cross-brand flamewar?

> >> > No.


> >> I asked because it wouldn't be the first time.

> > I've never started a 'cross-brand' flamewar.
>
> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough,
> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice
> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the
> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups
> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.

A troll posts and runs. I am not running.

I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. I do indeed own
a new Saab. I have indeed had two problems with it that I believe
I should not have had. I do in fact believe that a Usenet
newsgroup is one place this problem should be publicized and
discussed.

I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
difference years and years from now.

I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
them.

I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:

1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
Saab.

2) Toyota and Honda have been particularly successful in
controlling quality, and in resolving owner complaints. Saab (and
GM) could learn a thing or two from those companies.


>
> >> Why include Toyota and
> >> Honda groups then? (I've chosen to remove them from my followups)





> >
> > I included Toyota and Honda because these two companies seem to
> > be building cars with better maintenance histories, and seem to
> > be providing much better customer service than Saab is currently
> > -- and these are Saab's real compeditors -- not BMW or whatever.
>
> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does
> not a statistical trend make?
>
> > I explained it quite clearly. Two catastrophic tire blowouts:
>
> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout
> would be.

This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.

"catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
some way.

>
> > bad Dealer service:
>
> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did
> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.

1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.

You can't keep making this assumption over and over again after
I've assured you otherwise, and assume you're making some kind
of important point. You start to look a little foolish.

2) Dealers MUST handle even bad customers better than my Saab
dealer did, if they want repeat business. The dealer doesn't get
a "pass" because you personally don't like my post.


[snip]

>
> > THIS is NOT a small problem. I see enough other discussions here
> > about tires and wheelrims and the like, to know this is a major
> > concern for some Saab owners already.
>
> Oh, now it's rims too, not just Michelin tires? You really should figure
> out what your point is before you try to go with it. I can't recall any
> other posts about Michelin blowouts, and that's over many years here.

My tires shredded, partly because the wheelrims sat right down at
the border area between the sidewall and the tire tread, and
sliced through them when they blew. It happened very quickly -- a
matter of a few seconds.

This behavior not only destroys a lightly damaged tire, it is
also very bad for the wheelrim as well. Saab is getting at
least some wheel rim complaints because of this problem, which
happens at low speeds as well as high speeds.

Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.


[snip]
>
> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade
> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that
> checked?

The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
would not be affected.

But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.

I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
my experience with them.

Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
manufacturer.

A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
Management.


[snip]

mb

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> >>
> >> >> What is your intention here, to start a cross-brand flamewar?

> >> > No.


> >> I asked because it wouldn't be the first time.

> > I've never started a 'cross-brand' flamewar.
>
> Maybe, but disruptive sorts seem to enjoy doing so, and oddly enough,
> the selection of the groups is always consistant. Your language, choice
> of crossposted (offtopic) groups, and tone are consistant with the
> pattern. It's also odd, then, that you've re-added the other groups
> to the followups, even though someone else had taken them out.

A troll posts and runs. I am not running.

I am glad to clear up your mistaken impressions. I do indeed own
a new Saab. I have indeed had two problems with it that I believe
I should not have had. I do in fact believe that a Usenet
newsgroup is one place this problem should be publicized and
discussed.

I believe that I am in fact being trolled in this thread by
several of you regulars. That's OK: I know how to use trolls in
general to make my point in a newsgroup. It's your choice:
You can either look good by addressing the problem; or you can
look childish by trolling a "newbie" to your newsgroup. People
finding these posts on groups.google.com will be able to tell the
difference years and years from now.

I selected the newsgroups I wanted to post to. It was and is my
selection to make. It is rude for you or anyone else to remove
them.

I posted to toyota and honda auto groups for two reasons:

1) Toyotas and Hondas are Saab's major compeditors in the US.
Posters to those groups might very well have constructive new
perspectives to add, regarding the problems I am having with my
Saab.

2) Toyota and Honda have been particularly successful in
controlling quality, and in resolving owner complaints. Saab (and
GM) could learn a thing or two from those companies.


>
> >> Why include Toyota and
> >> Honda groups then? (I've chosen to remove them from my followups)





> >
> > I included Toyota and Honda because these two companies seem to
> > be building cars with better maintenance histories, and seem to
> > be providing much better customer service than Saab is currently
> > -- and these are Saab's real compeditors -- not BMW or whatever.
>
> Two tires on your car blew out. Do you understand that two tires does
> not a statistical trend make?
>
> > I explained it quite clearly. Two catastrophic tire blowouts:
>
> Not arguing that, although I wonder what a non-catastrophic blowout
> would be.

This is quibbling, but I'll answer your one-liner anyway.

"catastrophic" happens to be a term often used in Court -- it
describes a quick (sometimes explosive) tire failure that
destroys the tire and also puts the car and its occupants at
risk. It can also imply that the failed tire was defective in
some way.

>
> > bad Dealer service:
>
> Perhaps, I wasn't there. If you came in frothing at the mouth as you did
> here, I can see why they didn't wnat to bend over backwards to help you.

1) I handled myself quite well at the dealer.

You can't keep making this assumption over and over again after
I've assured you otherwise, and assume you're making some kind
of important point. You start to look a little foolish.

2) Dealers MUST handle even bad customers better than my Saab
dealer did, if they want repeat business. The dealer doesn't get
a "pass" because you personally don't like my post.


[snip]

>
> > THIS is NOT a small problem. I see enough other discussions here
> > about tires and wheelrims and the like, to know this is a major
> > concern for some Saab owners already.
>
> Oh, now it's rims too, not just Michelin tires? You really should figure
> out what your point is before you try to go with it. I can't recall any
> other posts about Michelin blowouts, and that's over many years here.

My tires shredded, partly because the wheelrims sat right down at
the border area between the sidewall and the tire tread, and
sliced through them when they blew. It happened very quickly -- a
matter of a few seconds.

This behavior not only destroys a lightly damaged tire, it is
also very bad for the wheelrim as well. Saab is getting at
least some wheel rim complaints because of this problem, which
happens at low speeds as well as high speeds.

Saab engineers should have anticipated this behavior upon tire
failure, and designed their wheelrims to at least minimize it.


[snip]
>
> No. You have provided no evidence of this, and you continue to evade
> the question about wheel alignment. Third request, have you had that
> checked?

The rear tire blew. I was assured that on a Saab, the alignment
would not be affected.

But yes, I've had my alignment checked anyway: Two months ago,
and again yesterday. Absolutely no change. It's just fine.

I am certainly claiming that these Michelins are faulty, based on
my experience with them.

Two blowouts in six months on nearly new OEM tires is a very good
reason for an owner to register a complaint with his car
manufacturer.

A good company would replace those tires for free if they have
some service records of other owners making the same complaints:
This is Freshman QA Engineering. It's also Freshmen Marketing
Management.


[snip]

mb

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> >>
[snip]


> >> >> What was the cause of the blowout? Did you have your pressures
> >> >> set properly? Does your car have an alignment problem? Are you
> >> >> trying to solve the problem, or just complain about it?
> >
> > My car is well maintained. So are the tires. I do not have an
> > alignment problem. The second blowout was a rear tire anyway.
> > The problem is not something simple.
>
> So, now you're telling us (finally) that it's one front and
> one back, maybe? Are they both on the same side of the car?
> 20-questions time here. If you want helpful suggestions, don't
> expect us to draw these things out one post at a time. If you
> just want to complain, well, that's your choice.

Left front; Right Rear.

Alignment fine both times.

No obvious external punctures or cuts both times.


> > I am indeed reporting this problem to this newsgroup. If you call
> > it "complaining," then so be it. It's still a valid issue,
> > however you choose to characterize it.
>
> OK, everyone, listen up. Some guy in Califorina had two blowouts of
> Michelin tires on his Saab.
>
> There. Two data points for michelin tire failures. We're up to, er, let's
> see, two.

You are reeel good at quibbling. You are not so good at
examining a problem in the way a QA Engineer or Operations
Manager at a well-managed auto company would examine the problem.

I have already responded to you at length about why my personal
experience might very well be important to a lot of Saab owners.

.... fact is; you don't need to have a significant fraction of
users reporting a problem for it to exist in a complex product
like an automobile or a computer. With a complex product, a
problem serious enough to cost a Manufacturer lots of money can
indeed exist in less than one percent of its product users.

As an example, I read that Ford SUV tire problems occurred in
less than a tenth of one percent of their owners (one in a
thousand), when Ford finally had to issue a Recall notice and the
first cases went to Trial.

I am therefore not surprised that this general-purpose
enthusiasts' newsgroup isn't overwhelmed with tire blowout
stories. They are nonetheless important.

*****

I've gone back and re-read your responses to my earlier post,
where I discussed this in more detail.

It's apparent that you didn't understand the basic concepts I
described there. I guess you don't have much background in basic
QA engineering or Business Operations Management and research.
That's OK.

Please go back and re-read what I wrote. It is much more
important to you and the major purchase choices you make in your
own private life than you might have thought.


> > This could be a very serious issue for owners of late model
> > Saabs.
>
> To you, it's very serious. To the population of Saab drivers, it seems not
> to be, since nobody else has reported same here. You could check
> The Saab Network, I suppose. In fact, that would be a good next place for
> you to do some homework. Maybe someone else there has seen this.

Indeed, some of them have.

Once again, it is apparent to me that you don't understand the
basic Engineering and QA problems that cause product failures in
complex modern technical products.


> > So could dealer relations and GM resolution practices,
> > which have completely failed in my case. ALL this belongs on this
> > newsgroup, whether you call it a minor issue or not, or
> > conveniently dismiss me as a "complainer."
>
> You are accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior, without having any basis
> for such a claim. What were you expecting, a group-hug?

I was expecting at least a few knowledgeable posters here in the
Saab group to focus on the problem I reported, and NOT to start
with personal namecalling.

Focusing on the issue instead of the emotional content of a
trouble call, is an elementary help-desk management technique. I
thought there were some people here with the tech background and
business experience to realize that. Apparently, I was wrong.

This surprises me. It is common practice in lots of other Usenet
technical newsgroups -- esp. the computer newsgroups, where
people are often angry and frustrated, and the threads settle
down enough to resolve whatever problem that was reported.

Even the other auto newsgroups perform better than alt.autos.saab
has responded here. This group is behaving more like a cliquish
TeenBunny fan gossip group than a real automobile newsgroup.

ORIGINAL POST: Brittany Spears is singing off-key!

GROUP RESPONSE: You moron! You arrogant prick! You troll!


> > While I am trying to resolve this problem, I am completely stuck.
> > The dealer won't deal -- says he's not responsible. For the first
> > blowout, he charged me $275 and took two days to install the new
> > tire. Michelin won't even talk to me on the phone. All I can do
> > is buy yet another tire and keep on driving.
>
> What kind of tire did you buy?

I have a Dunlop on the Right Rear now because it was all I could
find. I intend to replace all four tires as soon as I can find a
reliable, well-made midprice tire.

Researching cars and tires has changed in the last few years. I
have no idea what tire I really should be buying, how to
personally examine a new tire for design and quality, or what to
look for in a tire Warrantee these days.

>
> >> >> What is the cause of this atypical problem with your particular
> >> >> car?
> >
> > I don't know.
>
> Exactly. So how do you justify the accusation of "criminal" behavior?

I had an experience that normally only manufacturers' Negligence
would cause. Negligence constitutes "criminal" product
liability on the part of Saab and Michelin..


> > I believe that the Michelin tires that came with my Saab are
> > faulty. Two of the four tires that came with my car have had
> > explosive sidewall blowouts on the freeway in less than ten
> > thousand miles of light driving.
> >
> > Either Michelin or Saab should replace them. I should have new,
> > free tires.
>
> So take your tires, and your homework, to small claims court & let a
> judge decide.

In other words, you see my point but don't want to deal with it.


>
> > I would also like to know if national service records would show
> > that more than around 1000 new Saabs a year have experienced
> > sudden sidewall blowout failures from OEM Michelin tires during
> > freeway driving. If the number is this high, then Saab has a
> > serious product safety problem. It should immediately replace all
> > these tires on any Saab they've sold in the last four years or
> > so, with less than maybe 20,000 miles on OEM Michelin tires.
>
> Sounds like you have a lot of homework to do then, doesn't it.
> (all of which you should be doing first, before throwing your
> accusations around, by the way).

Nope. My experience gives me every justification to raise these
questions; right here in this newsgroup.

I hope that Saab owners like you can either affirm similar
experiences, or produce information that would argue against my
strong suspicions here.

To the contrary, you guys are showing posting behavior I expect
to see from kids in a showbiz fan gossip group:


[snip]

mb

Re: Saab Complaint
 

In article <bjffe2$ijn6q$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 04:06:51 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> > In article <bjdes4$i67t0$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:50:56 GMT, milt brewster <milt73@sonic.net> wrote:
> >> > In article <bjat1j$h21m6$1@ID-134476.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> >> > davehinz@spamcop.net says...
> >> >>
[snip]


> >> >> What was the cause of the blowout? Did you have your pressures
> >> >> set properly? Does your car have an alignment problem? Are you
> >> >> trying to solve the problem, or just complain about it?
> >
> > My car is well maintained. So are the tires. I do not have an
> > alignment problem. The second blowout was a rear tire anyway.
> > The problem is not something simple.
>
> So, now you're telling us (finally) that it's one front and
> one back, maybe? Are they both on the same side of the car?
> 20-questions time here. If you want helpful suggestions, don't
> expect us to draw these things out one post at a time. If you
> just want to complain, well, that's your choice.

Left front; Right Rear.

Alignment fine both times.

No obvious external punctures or cuts both times.


> > I am indeed reporting this problem to this newsgroup. If you call
> > it "complaining," then so be it. It's still a valid issue,
> > however you choose to characterize it.
>
> OK, everyone, listen up. Some guy in Califorina had two blowouts of
> Michelin tires on his Saab.
>
> There. Two data points for michelin tire failures. We're up to, er, let's
> see, two.

You are reeel good at quibbling. You are not so good at
examining a problem in the way a QA Engineer or Operations
Manager at a well-managed auto company would examine the problem.

I have already responded to you at length about why my personal
experience might very well be important to a lot of Saab owners.

.... fact is; you don't need to have a significant fraction of
users reporting a problem for it to exist in a complex product
like an automobile or a computer. With a complex product, a
problem serious enough to cost a Manufacturer lots of money can
indeed exist in less than one percent of its product users.

As an example, I read that Ford SUV tire problems occurred in
less than a tenth of one percent of their owners (one in a
thousand), when Ford finally had to issue a Recall notice and the
first cases went to Trial.

I am therefore not surprised that this general-purpose
enthusiasts' newsgroup isn't overwhelmed with tire blowout
stories. They are nonetheless important.

*****

I've gone back and re-read your responses to my earlier post,
where I discussed this in more detail.

It's apparent that you didn't understand the basic concepts I
described there. I guess you don't have much background in basic
QA engineering or Business Operations Management and research.
That's OK.

Please go back and re-read what I wrote. It is much more
important to you and the major purchase choices you make in your
own private life than you might have thought.


> > This could be a very serious issue for owners of late model
> > Saabs.
>
> To you, it's very serious. To the population of Saab drivers, it seems not
> to be, since nobody else has reported same here. You could check
> The Saab Network, I suppose. In fact, that would be a good next place for
> you to do some homework. Maybe someone else there has seen this.

Indeed, some of them have.

Once again, it is apparent to me that you don't understand the
basic Engineering and QA problems that cause product failures in
complex modern technical products.


> > So could dealer relations and GM resolution practices,
> > which have completely failed in my case. ALL this belongs on this
> > newsgroup, whether you call it a minor issue or not, or
> > conveniently dismiss me as a "complainer."
>
> You are accusing Saab of "criminal" behavior, without having any basis
> for such a claim. What were you expecting, a group-hug?

I was expecting at least a few knowledgeable posters here in the
Saab group to focus on the problem I reported, and NOT to start
with personal namecalling.

Focusing on the issue instead of the emotional content of a
trouble call, is an elementary help-desk management technique. I
thought there were some people here with the tech background and
business experience to realize that. Apparently, I was wrong.

This surprises me. It is common practice in lots of other Usenet
technical newsgroups -- esp. the computer newsgroups, where
people are often angry and frustrated, and the threads settle
down enough to resolve whatever problem that was reported.

Even the other auto newsgroups perform better than alt.autos.saab
has responded here. This group is behaving more like a cliquish
TeenBunny fan gossip group than a real automobile newsgroup.

ORIGINAL POST: Brittany Spears is singing off-key!

GROUP RESPONSE: You moron! You arrogant prick! You troll!


> > While I am trying to resolve this problem, I am completely stuck.
> > The dealer won't deal -- says he's not responsible. For the first
> > blowout, he charged me $275 and took two days to install the new
> > tire. Michelin won't even talk to me on the phone. All I can do
> > is buy yet another tire and keep on driving.
>
> What kind of tire did you buy?

I have a Dunlop on the Right Rear now because it was all I could
find. I intend to replace all four tires as soon as I can find a
reliable, well-made midprice tire.

Researching cars and tires has changed in the last few years. I
have no idea what tire I really should be buying, how to
personally examine a new tire for design and quality, or what to
look for in a tire Warrantee these days.

>
> >> >> What is the cause of this atypical problem with your particular
> >> >> car?
> >
> > I don't know.
>
> Exactly. So how do you justify the accusation of "criminal" behavior?

I had an experience that normally only manufacturers' Negligence
would cause. Negligence constitutes "criminal" product
liability on the part of Saab and Michelin..


> > I believe that the Michelin tires that came with my Saab are
> > faulty. Two of the four tires that came with my car have had
> > explosive sidewall blowouts on the freeway in less than ten
> > thousand miles of light driving.
> >
> > Either Michelin or Saab should replace them. I should have new,
> > free tires.
>
> So take your tires, and your homework, to small claims court & let a
> judge decide.

In other words, you see my point but don't want to deal with it.


>
> > I would also like to know if national service records would show
> > that more than around 1000 new Saabs a year have experienced
> > sudden sidewall blowout failures from OEM Michelin tires during
> > freeway driving. If the number is this high, then Saab has a
> > serious product safety problem. It should immediately replace all
> > these tires on any Saab they've sold in the last four years or
> > so, with less than maybe 20,000 miles on OEM Michelin tires.
>
> Sounds like you have a lot of homework to do then, doesn't it.
> (all of which you should be doing first, before throwing your
> accusations around, by the way).

Nope. My experience gives me every justification to raise these
questions; right here in this newsgroup.

I hope that Saab owners like you can either affirm similar
experiences, or produce information that would argue against my
strong suspicions here.

To the contrary, you guys are showing posting behavior I expect
to see from kids in a showbiz fan gossip group:


[snip]

mb