Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"CaptainKrunch" <nothing@nobody.com> wrote in
news:z5-dnXZ6SYRaxp7dRVn-gQ@comcast.com:

> The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which
> is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim
> Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few
> dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda
> sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it
> anyway I believe.
>
> CaptainKrunch

Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced".

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"CaptainKrunch" <nothing@nobody.com> wrote in
news:z5-dnXZ6SYRaxp7dRVn-gQ@comcast.com:

> The last time I looked at Prestone it does have silicates in it which
> is an abrasive. I have read from more than a few people that claim
> Prestone is not the choice to use in our Honda cars and for a few
> dollars it isn't worth the effort to challenge it. I am sure Honda
> sells a reasonably priced antifreeze. You only need a gallon of it
> anyway I believe.
>
> CaptainKrunch

Honda/Acura doesn't sell anything "reasonably priced".

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:

>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
>up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
>phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
>about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
>well as low phosphate.

Dude, you're not listening.

>You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
>Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

>Why screw around challenging what the
>engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
>for $5/year ?

Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:

>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
>up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
>phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
>about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
>well as low phosphate.

Dude, you're not listening.

>You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
>Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

>Why screw around challenging what the
>engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
>for $5/year ?

Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:

>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
>up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
>phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
>about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
>well as low phosphate.

Dude, you're not listening.

>You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
>Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

>Why screw around challenging what the
>engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
>for $5/year ?

Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:

>Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
>up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
>phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
>about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
>well as low phosphate.

Dude, you're not listening.

>You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
>Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

>Why screw around challenging what the
>engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
>for $5/year ?

Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
business within a year.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
> >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
> >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
> >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
> >well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> >Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

Havoline?

> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
> you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

Have you used it in Hondas?

On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
1991 Civic.

I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

> >Why screw around challenging what the
> >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> >for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
> >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
> >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
> >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
> >well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> >Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

Havoline?

> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
> you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

Have you used it in Hondas?

On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
1991 Civic.

I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

> >Why screw around challenging what the
> >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> >for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
> >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
> >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
> >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
> >well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> >Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

Havoline?

> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
> you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

Have you used it in Hondas?

On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
1991 Civic.

I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

> >Why screw around challenging what the
> >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> >for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Cliff Freeling" <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> wrote
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> >Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are screwing
> >up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze. Worse than the
> >phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice they don't say much
> >about silicates on the Peak site. European cars need low silicate as
> >well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> >You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> >Valvoline for about $9/gallon.

Havoline?

> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who "educated"
> you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no problems.

Have you used it in Hondas?

On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.

I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
1991 Civic.

I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.

To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

> >Why screw around challenging what the
> >engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> >for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

I imagine they're fine for some car makes but not others.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes,
others are possible but are not in commercial use right now)

Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol
is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to
toxicity.

In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them
pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less.

The dye used costs nearly nothing.

The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About
$0.30 per gallon.

The chemicals package is the next part.

Old green antifreeze had a mixture of
(typically)
mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass)
Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either)
Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control)
Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale
inhibitor)
Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron)
Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder)
Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package.
Dye
Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or
a little, there wasn't too much difference.

There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to
stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too.
That stopped long ago.

The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of
dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible
overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented
formulation
buy it from the same company.

Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per
gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you
about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
what
the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes,
others are possible but are not in commercial use right now)

Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol
is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to
toxicity.

In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them
pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less.

The dye used costs nearly nothing.

The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About
$0.30 per gallon.

The chemicals package is the next part.

Old green antifreeze had a mixture of
(typically)
mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass)
Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either)
Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control)
Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale
inhibitor)
Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron)
Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder)
Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package.
Dye
Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or
a little, there wasn't too much difference.

There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to
stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too.
That stopped long ago.

The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of
dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible
overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented
formulation
buy it from the same company.

Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per
gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you
about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
what
the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes,
others are possible but are not in commercial use right now)

Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol
is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to
toxicity.

In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them
pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less.

The dye used costs nearly nothing.

The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About
$0.30 per gallon.

The chemicals package is the next part.

Old green antifreeze had a mixture of
(typically)
mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass)
Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either)
Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control)
Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale
inhibitor)
Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron)
Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder)
Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package.
Dye
Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or
a little, there wasn't too much difference.

There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to
stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too.
That stopped long ago.

The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of
dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible
overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented
formulation
buy it from the same company.

Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per
gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you
about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
what
the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Antifreeze compositions are usually based upon a thermodynamic antifreeze
compound, primarily ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

These will be the same no matter what prime source you get them from. (Yes,
others are possible but are not in commercial use right now)

Ethylene glycol costs somewhat less than propylene glycol. Propylene glycol
is a poorer thermodynamic antifreeze, but is somewhat better with respect to
toxicity.

In the quantities that the blenders purchase the glycols, they get them
pretty cheap. EG is in the range of $ .25 per pound or less.

The dye used costs nearly nothing.

The agent used to bitter the antifreeze can add a bit to the cost. About
$0.30 per gallon.

The chemicals package is the next part.

Old green antifreeze had a mixture of
(typically)
mercaptobenzotriazole or tolyltriazole (corrosion inhibitor for brass)
Borax...(pH buffer, corrosion inhibitor)
Sodium silicate (corrosion inhibitor for aluminum -wasn't too good either)
Caustic soda (added alkaline reserve, pH control)
Polymer...( corrosion inhibitor for iron. dispersant for solids. scale
inhibitor)
Phosphate (buffer. Corrosion inhibitor for iron)
Sodium nitrate (corrosion inhibitor for solder)
Lubricants for the water pump were often not a part of the package.
Dye
Everybody had about the same mix, give or take. Whether you paid a bunch or
a little, there wasn't too much difference.

There was some experimentation with floating polymer beads , intended to
stop leaks and perhaps lubricate a bit, but in fact they ruined engines too.
That stopped long ago.

The new orange stuff is a different chemistry. It is based on salts of
dibasic carboxylic acids. It is probably more environmentally responsible
overall. Reasonably effective stuff. Blenders who use this patented
formulation
buy it from the same company.

Now, if you were a seller, and could sell some nice orange crap at $9.00 per
gallon, versus some green crap at $5.00 per gallon, both of which cost you
about the same amount of money to make, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO??

As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
what
the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind
posted:
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are
> > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze.
> > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice
> > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European
> > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> > Valvoline for about $9/gallon.
>
> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who
> "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has
> convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no
> problems.
>
> > Why screw around challenging what the
> > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> > for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant.
The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last
week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine
Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than
required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular
("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff ....
over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing.
--

-Philip

"Whatever is a choice will become chosen"