Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

> I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
> green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.

You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
inhibitor package. I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
mud.

Just like oil, AF's are a huge source or urban legend mythology.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

> I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
> green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.

You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
inhibitor package. I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
mud.

Just like oil, AF's are a huge source or urban legend mythology.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green"
>AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the
>types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime. But
>neither of us have hard data, so not worth taking further.
>
>- Mark

Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.

Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
package is.

Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green"
>AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the
>types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime. But
>neither of us have hard data, so not worth taking further.
>
>- Mark

Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.

Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
package is.

Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green"
>AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the
>types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime. But
>neither of us have hard data, so not worth taking further.
>
>- Mark

Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.

Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
package is.

Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional "green"
>AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient whipping boy for the
>types of cooling system problems that occur in cars all thetime. But
>neither of us have hard data, so not worth taking further.
>
>- Mark

Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.

Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
package is.

Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

markjen wrote:

>>I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
>>green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.
>
>
> You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
> difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
> inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
> inhibitor package.

Yup.

> I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
> corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
> mud.

I see no reason that changing the additive package couldn't have a huge
effect on how the coolant behaves in a closed system. I've seen pictures
of the insides of engines (GM engines for which the crap was recommended
and nothing else ever used) filled with the muddy residue. Links to them
have been posted on this newsgroup (rec.autos.tech, which is where I'm
reading this).

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

markjen wrote:

>>I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
>>green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.
>
>
> You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
> difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
> inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
> inhibitor package.

Yup.

> I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
> corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
> mud.

I see no reason that changing the additive package couldn't have a huge
effect on how the coolant behaves in a closed system. I've seen pictures
of the insides of engines (GM engines for which the crap was recommended
and nothing else ever used) filled with the muddy residue. Links to them
have been posted on this newsgroup (rec.autos.tech, which is where I'm
reading this).

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

markjen wrote:

>>I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
>>green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.
>
>
> You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
> difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
> inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
> inhibitor package.

Yup.

> I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
> corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
> mud.

I see no reason that changing the additive package couldn't have a huge
effect on how the coolant behaves in a closed system. I've seen pictures
of the insides of engines (GM engines for which the crap was recommended
and nothing else ever used) filled with the muddy residue. Links to them
have been posted on this newsgroup (rec.autos.tech, which is where I'm
reading this).

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

markjen wrote:

>>I've seen problems with cooling systems of all types, but I never saw
>>green EG antifreeze turn to brown mush the consistency of mud.
>
>
> You realize that Dexcool is almost all EG also, don't you? The only
> difference between conventional EG and Dexcool is an organic acid corrosion
> inhibitor package instead of the typical phosphate, silicate corrosion
> inhibitor package.

Yup.

> I don't see any mechanism where a slightly different
> corrosion inhibitor package could take 8-qts of coolant and turn it into
> mud.

I see no reason that changing the additive package couldn't have a huge
effect on how the coolant behaves in a closed system. I've seen pictures
of the insides of engines (GM engines for which the crap was recommended
and nothing else ever used) filled with the muddy residue. Links to them
have been posted on this newsgroup (rec.autos.tech, which is where I'm
reading this).

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
with their labels and charging double.

Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
with their labels and charging double.

Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
with their labels and charging double.

Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
with their labels and charging double.

Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:00:05 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
>has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
>decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
>with their labels and charging double.

No question of that. Most of them are rather tight-lipped as to
what exactly is in their "recommended" coolant.

>Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
>problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
>and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
>bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Sorry, but with Dexcool, I have to disagree. There are known problems.
They are admitted to by GM, it's primary promoter.

>Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
>chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
the factory.