Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind
posted:
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are
> > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze.
> > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice
> > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European
> > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> > Valvoline for about $9/gallon.
>
> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who
> "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has
> convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no
> problems.
>
> > Why screw around challenging what the
> > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> > for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant.
The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last
week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine
Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than
required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular
("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff ....
over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing.
--

-Philip

"Whatever is a choice will become chosen"

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind
posted:
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are
> > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze.
> > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice
> > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European
> > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> > Valvoline for about $9/gallon.
>
> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who
> "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has
> convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no
> problems.
>
> > Why screw around challenging what the
> > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> > for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant.
The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last
week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine
Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than
required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular
("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff ....
over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing.
--

-Philip

"Whatever is a choice will become chosen"

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

In news:a0698655.0401131419.4cde73eb@posting.google.c om,
Cliff Freeling <clifffreeling@yahoo.com> being of bellicose mind
posted:
> Jimmy wrote:
>
> > Dood, I don't know where you're "coming from", but you are
> > screwing up. Peak is selling BS to sell you their antifreeze.
> > Worse than the phosphate issue is the silicate issue. Notice
> > they don't say much about silicates on the Peak site. European
> > cars need low silicate as well as low phosphate.
>
> Dude, you're not listening.
>
> > You can get a quality, low silicate, low phosphate coolant from
> > Valvoline for about $9/gallon.
>
> So, what makes you think it's not BS YOU'RE swallowing? Who
> "educated" you on the subject of antifreeze? Somebody has
> convinced you that
> you need to spend more for their antifreeze. You also weren't
> listening when I said that I've used Peak for years with no
> problems.
>
> > Why screw around challenging what the
> > engineers who built your car recommended when you can do it right
> > for $5/year ?
>
> Why pay even a few dollar more when it's not necessary? None of my
> manuals say to a avoid the phosphate or silicates. If the Peak
> and Prestone products were as bad as you think, they'd be out of
> business within a year.

My Corolla book does specify silicate and phosphate free coolant.
The engine block, head, water pump, and radiator are aluminum. Last
week I performed the first coolant change and bought the genuine
Toyota coolant. Price was $12.95 for a gallon (a wee bit more than
required). Prestone 5 yr ("orange") was $9.00. Prestone regular
("green") a couple bucks less. A few bucks for the right stuff ....
over the next 50k miles is nothing. Nothing.
--

-Philip

"Whatever is a choice will become chosen"

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space>

Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field.

> As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
> Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
> what
> the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences,
and use a little intelligent reasoning.

> None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
> Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America
just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space>

Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field.

> As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
> Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
> what
> the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences,
and use a little intelligent reasoning.

> None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
> Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America
just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space>

Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field.

> As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
> Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
> what
> the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences,
and use a little intelligent reasoning.

> None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
> Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America
just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message news:<1009bphg4she2ef@corp.supernews.com>...
<good educational stuff snipped for space>

Damn Larry, you much be a chemist in the antifreeze field.

> As a consumer, you pay what you have to pay to keep your warranty in place.
> Unless you actually do the tests, you do not know, nor can you ever know,
> what
> the variations of the chemical packages will do for your particular engine.

How true. All we can do is rely on observation and our experiences,
and use a little intelligent reasoning.

> None of them are as good as you might hope from the advertising claims.
> Neither are the rest as bad as many on this newsgroup would claim.

Never a more accurate statement than this! Of course, corporate America
just LOVES the hordes who buy into their sales hype.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...

> Have you used it in Hondas?

No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used
it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs.
>
> On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
> anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
> early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.
>
> I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
> 1991 Civic.

Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually
at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim,
I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps.
>
> I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
> frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
> who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.
>
> To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've
been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own
auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what
is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough
a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...

> Have you used it in Hondas?

No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used
it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs.
>
> On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
> anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
> early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.
>
> I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
> 1991 Civic.

Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually
at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim,
I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps.
>
> I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
> frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
> who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.
>
> To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've
been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own
auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what
is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough
a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...

> Have you used it in Hondas?

No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used
it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs.
>
> On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
> anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
> early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.
>
> I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
> 1991 Civic.

Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually
at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim,
I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps.
>
> I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
> frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
> who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.
>
> To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've
been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own
auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what
is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough
a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<_n%Mb.8383$zj7.1156@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net>...

> Have you used it in Hondas?

No, I've never owned a Honda, although they're good cars. I've used
it in Mazdas, Toyotas, and MBs.
>
> On the Honda newsgroups it seems to me a clear majority indicate the OEM
> anti-freeze is the only option for them, based on a lot of experience (with
> early Honda water pump bearing failures IIRC) and not just Honda salespeople.
>
> I suspect Prestone led to at least one early fairlure of one water pump on my
> 1991 Civic.

Water pumps, being mechanical devices, will always fail eventually, usually
at around 100k from my experience. Maybe there's some truth to your claim,
I don't know, but I've never heard that Prestone was bad for water pumps.
>
> I am now experimenting with the Havoline Dex stuff. I am also increasing the
> frequency of my radiator coolant flushes. Yet I would not advise Honda owners
> who don't have the time and who don't want want the trouble to do this.
>
> To play it safe, buy the Honda OEM anti-freeze for your Honda.

"Playing it safe" can cost unecessarily. Believe me, I know. I've
been around the block a few times, and have done much of my own
auto repairs/service for years, and I can tell you that much of what
is "recommended" from service people (who usually don't do as thorough
a job as I do myself), and even the manuals, is totally unnecessary.

--
Cliff

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Larry Smith wrote:

> There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.
>

Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that Honda or
Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of physics and
chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.

Use the over-priced factory spooge through the warranty, then use a
proven formula afterward. And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM
that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep
your fingers crossed too :-)

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Larry Smith wrote:

> There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.
>

Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that Honda or
Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of physics and
chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.

Use the over-priced factory spooge through the warranty, then use a
proven formula afterward. And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM
that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep
your fingers crossed too :-)

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Larry Smith wrote:

> There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.
>

Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that Honda or
Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of physics and
chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.

Use the over-priced factory spooge through the warranty, then use a
proven formula afterward. And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM
that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep
your fingers crossed too :-)

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Larry Smith wrote:

> There is no magic at work here. It is fairly simple chemistry.
>

Amen. To read some of these owner's manuals, you'd swear that Honda or
Toyota aluminum atoms follow completely different laws of physics and
chemistry than Ford or Chrysler aluminum atoms.

Use the over-priced factory spooge through the warranty, then use a
proven formula afterward. And don't use Dex-Cool in ANYTHING except a GM
that calls for it and also has a good warranty in place.... and keep
your fingers crossed too :-)