Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:00:05 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
>has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
>decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
>with their labels and charging double.

No question of that. Most of them are rather tight-lipped as to
what exactly is in their "recommended" coolant.

>Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
>problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
>and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
>bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Sorry, but with Dexcool, I have to disagree. There are known problems.
They are admitted to by GM, it's primary promoter.

>Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
>chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
the factory.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:00:05 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
>has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
>decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
>with their labels and charging double.

No question of that. Most of them are rather tight-lipped as to
what exactly is in their "recommended" coolant.

>Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
>problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
>and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
>bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Sorry, but with Dexcool, I have to disagree. There are known problems.
They are admitted to by GM, it's primary promoter.

>Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
>chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
the factory.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:00:05 GMT, "markjen"
<mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:

>You've done a good job reviewing the AF picture. It is unfortuate that it
>has gotten so unbelievably complicated confused. I think the car mfgs have
>decided to reap some money out of this confusion by relabeling common AFs
>with their labels and charging double.

No question of that. Most of them are rather tight-lipped as to
what exactly is in their "recommended" coolant.

>Again, I think most of the hysteria is urban legend and blaming AF on other
>problems. Put any AF in a couple million vehicles, some with serious engine
>and cooling system problems, and you're going to have a few that look pretty
>bad. The same thing occured with synthetic oil and it's occuring with AF.

Sorry, but with Dexcool, I have to disagree. There are known problems.
They are admitted to by GM, it's primary promoter.

>Installed properly and changed regulary, use whatever you like and the
>chances of problems is vanishingly small. Just like oil.

Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
the factory.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Put whatever you want in your engine you bought it.
they are additives that make me use the original Honda Fluids.

Change you antifreeze every 2 years what is that, about $20 Why spent 15 to
30 K for a vehicle and quiver about $10 bucks per year for antifreeze. Go
get an air cooled motorcycle instead.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Put whatever you want in your engine you bought it.
they are additives that make me use the original Honda Fluids.

Change you antifreeze every 2 years what is that, about $20 Why spent 15 to
30 K for a vehicle and quiver about $10 bucks per year for antifreeze. Go
get an air cooled motorcycle instead.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Put whatever you want in your engine you bought it.
they are additives that make me use the original Honda Fluids.

Change you antifreeze every 2 years what is that, about $20 Why spent 15 to
30 K for a vehicle and quiver about $10 bucks per year for antifreeze. Go
get an air cooled motorcycle instead.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Put whatever you want in your engine you bought it.
they are additives that make me use the original Honda Fluids.

Change you antifreeze every 2 years what is that, about $20 Why spent 15 to
30 K for a vehicle and quiver about $10 bucks per year for antifreeze. Go
get an air cooled motorcycle instead.

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

> Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
> the factory.

I hate to continue the argument, but this doesn't mean crap. But any AF in
three million cars a year and some are going to show corrosion in two years.
Be reasonable.

The question is whether there is a higher incidence of corrosion issues with
Dexcool. Everything else is STRICTLY ANECDOTAL.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

> Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
> the factory.

I hate to continue the argument, but this doesn't mean crap. But any AF in
three million cars a year and some are going to show corrosion in two years.
Be reasonable.

The question is whether there is a higher incidence of corrosion issues with
Dexcool. Everything else is STRICTLY ANECDOTAL.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

> Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
> the factory.

I hate to continue the argument, but this doesn't mean crap. But any AF in
three million cars a year and some are going to show corrosion in two years.
Be reasonable.

The question is whether there is a higher incidence of corrosion issues with
Dexcool. Everything else is STRICTLY ANECDOTAL.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

> Cars with Dexcool have showed metal corrosion 2 years after leaving
> the factory.

I hate to continue the argument, but this doesn't mean crap. But any AF in
three million cars a year and some are going to show corrosion in two years.
Be reasonable.

The question is whether there is a higher incidence of corrosion issues with
Dexcool. Everything else is STRICTLY ANECDOTAL.

- Mark

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
> <mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional
>> "green" AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient
>> whipping boy for the types of cooling system problems that occur in
>> cars all thetime. But neither of us have hard data, so not worth
>> taking further.
>>
>> - Mark
>
> Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
> of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
> flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
> systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
> that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
> of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
> I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
> problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
> organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.
>
> Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
> two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
> the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
> manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
> Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
> Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
> low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
> conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
> Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
> no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
> definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
> contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
> the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
> an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
> of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
> package is.
>
> Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

There is also propylene glycol based anti freeze. PG is non-toxic.

--
Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
> <mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional
>> "green" AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient
>> whipping boy for the types of cooling system problems that occur in
>> cars all thetime. But neither of us have hard data, so not worth
>> taking further.
>>
>> - Mark
>
> Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
> of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
> flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
> systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
> that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
> of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
> I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
> problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
> organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.
>
> Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
> two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
> the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
> manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
> Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
> Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
> low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
> conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
> Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
> no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
> definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
> contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
> the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
> an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
> of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
> package is.
>
> Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

There is also propylene glycol based anti freeze. PG is non-toxic.

--
Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
> <mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional
>> "green" AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient
>> whipping boy for the types of cooling system problems that occur in
>> cars all thetime. But neither of us have hard data, so not worth
>> taking further.
>>
>> - Mark
>
> Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
> of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
> flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
> systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
> that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
> of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
> I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
> problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
> organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.
>
> Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
> two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
> the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
> manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
> Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
> Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
> low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
> conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
> Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
> no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
> definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
> contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
> the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
> an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
> of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
> package is.
>
> Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

There is also propylene glycol based anti freeze. PG is non-toxic.

--
Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA

Re: Some ruminations on antifreeze
 

Jimmy wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:51:52 GMT, "markjen"
> <mark.jennings4@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe such problems also occur all the time with conventional
>> "green" AF's, the introduction of Dexcool just was a convenient
>> whipping boy for the types of cooling system problems that occur in
>> cars all thetime. But neither of us have hard data, so not worth
>> taking further.
>>
>> - Mark
>
> Sorry, you're wrong. There is hard data. *GM* admits this in a variety
> of FACTORY bulletins concerning issues with contamination from solder
> flash, factory sealers, and even contamination from simple air in the
> systems. Aside from the factory issues that they own up to, they claim
> that the "air in the system" problem is poor maintenance on the part
> of owners who let the coolant level get too low. Probably true, but
> I've never see that problem with any other anti-freeze. FWIW, the
> problems appear to be with DEXcool/Havoline only, not all carbo
> organic acid products. YMMV. Use at your own risk.
>
> Also, folks here seem to be grouping anti-freeze into only
> two categories. There are actually 3 or 4 major categories. One is
> the EG w/high silicate products that are not recommended (by most
> manufacturers) in any recent vehicle. Next are the EG Hybrid Organic
> Acid Technology products like Valvoline G05. These are recommended by
> Ford, Chrysler/Damlier, and some European manufacturers. They contain
> low (not no) silicate, and low or no phosphate. They are an easy
> conversion from EG products without a lot of contamination issues.
> Last are the Carbo Organic Acid products like Dexcool. These are
> no-silicate and no-phosphate but may have some problems (Dexcool
> definitely has problems). Conversion requires a serious flush and
> contamination is a major concern. There is a fourth category -
> the Nissan/Honda no silicate products. I haven't been able to find
> an MSDS on these so I can't tell you exactly what they are composed
> of. I suspect they are a HOAT but I don't know what the anti-corrosion
> package is.
>
> Don't read a lot into actual colors, they are not that definitive.

There is also propylene glycol based anti freeze. PG is non-toxic.

--
Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA