Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

"fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> hat in Betrag
news:vr86fqoi53nb3d@corp.supernews.com dies gedichtet:

> The main problem I see with the US's auto industry is that they
> have always been too focused on current profits and haven't
> spent enough on R&D and product development.

Well, at least in Germany working for a car manufacturer and working for
the defense industry is no contradiction. The chassis of the Leopard 1
tank was developed by Porsche. Mercedes developed the G-Model mainly for
selling it to various armies as a multi purpose vehicle. The famous Fuchs
six wheeled armoured vehicle (german soldiers have operated Fuchs ABC
surveillance vehicles in Kuweit up to now) is powered by a Mercedes
engine. VW made several off road vehicles mainly for military purpose (VW
181, VW Iltis), and the Pershing middle range rockets of the USAF have
been based on mobile launch stations made by MAN, a german truck
manufacturer. Besides this Mercedes owner Daimler Chrysler also owns a
part of EADS, the largest aerospace company of Europe, which builds the
Airbus and the new Eurofighter. Daimler Chrysler also owned the military
engine manufacturer MTU (they have sold the company just a few days ago).
Most ships of the German Federal Navy are powered by MTU engines, so are
most heavy tanks in the German Federal Armed Forces. 8 years ago I
visited the german camera maker Rollei (now owned by Samsung). Back then
Rollei made one of the first digital camera system suitable for
professional use. It used a large scale CCD sensor provided by Rockwell
industries. I heard complaints by Rollei reps, who said that they could
not get as much CCD sensors as they needed, because the most important
client was Martin Marietta, to fit them into the target finding device of
their cruise missile. He found that not fair, because Rollei has
developed the optical target finding system of the cruise missile:
"guess, why cruise missles were able to commute through Baghdad like
taxicabs".

Frank

--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact

Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On 11/15/2003 10:15 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:

> In news:Aiptb.17114$w66.367558@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
> Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
>> On 11/15/2003 12:38 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> > CR's evaluation process has always been plagued by subjectivity.
>> > I'm the one writing the check at purchase time and I am the one
>> > who has to live with the purchase. That's why it's what -I-
>> > discover about the car that matters most. You can let other
>> > people do your thinking and test driving for you. Probably just
>> > as well. Car models live and die by the dictates of the
>> > market .... magazines notwithstanding.
>> >
>> >
>> > What new car have you purchased in the last couple of years?
>> > --
>> >
>> > ~~Philip
>>
>> Philip, the subject of the discussion with respect to Consumer
>> Reports was the reliability of vehicles reported by owners &
>> drivers, hundreds of thousands of them. That's not subjective,
>> unless you intend to claim that Consumer Reports makes up the
>> survey results. If you do, by all means make the claim.
>>
>> RFT!!!
>> Dave Kelsen
>
> Dave, the difference of opinion is over C/R's automotive evaluations
> over the years and the weight that should be given to those reports
> vs. personal research. C/R is a non-profit organization which means
> they can be just as prejudiced and opinionated in one direction as a
> "for profit" magazine can be biased in favor of its advertisers in
> another direction. The size of CR's audience only reflects the
> diversity of product they test, name recognition, and their many
> years in business.
>
> I have worked in the auto repair business for many years and have
> visited several assembly plant(s) of the models up for consideration.
> To those who have not such a background, do the best you can by
> reading a VARIETY of publications ... not -just- C/R.
> --
>
> ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> with your education - Mark Twain"

Interesting opinion, and perhaps I overreacted. On the other hand,
looking back in this thread, I quote the first reference to Consumer
Reports:

> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.

The reference here is clearly to the owner surveys, as *I* said, and
*not* to CR's staff reviews, as you reference above. You clearly stated
your opinion with respect to CR's staff reviews. You're deluded, but so
are we all, about something; you're entitled. The point is, no one was
arguing with you about it.

For whatever *my* opinion is worth, I suggest to you the following: The
size of CR's audience reflects the diversity of products they test, name
recognition, and their many years in business.

Further, I recommend that if you are unable to form an opinion uncolored
by the pablum handed out by automobile manufacturers, I recommend that
you do the best you can by reading a VARIETY of publications ...
including C/R.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
We have enough youth; how about a fountain of smart?

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On 11/15/2003 10:15 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:

> In news:Aiptb.17114$w66.367558@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
> Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
>> On 11/15/2003 12:38 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> > CR's evaluation process has always been plagued by subjectivity.
>> > I'm the one writing the check at purchase time and I am the one
>> > who has to live with the purchase. That's why it's what -I-
>> > discover about the car that matters most. You can let other
>> > people do your thinking and test driving for you. Probably just
>> > as well. Car models live and die by the dictates of the
>> > market .... magazines notwithstanding.
>> >
>> >
>> > What new car have you purchased in the last couple of years?
>> > --
>> >
>> > ~~Philip
>>
>> Philip, the subject of the discussion with respect to Consumer
>> Reports was the reliability of vehicles reported by owners &
>> drivers, hundreds of thousands of them. That's not subjective,
>> unless you intend to claim that Consumer Reports makes up the
>> survey results. If you do, by all means make the claim.
>>
>> RFT!!!
>> Dave Kelsen
>
> Dave, the difference of opinion is over C/R's automotive evaluations
> over the years and the weight that should be given to those reports
> vs. personal research. C/R is a non-profit organization which means
> they can be just as prejudiced and opinionated in one direction as a
> "for profit" magazine can be biased in favor of its advertisers in
> another direction. The size of CR's audience only reflects the
> diversity of product they test, name recognition, and their many
> years in business.
>
> I have worked in the auto repair business for many years and have
> visited several assembly plant(s) of the models up for consideration.
> To those who have not such a background, do the best you can by
> reading a VARIETY of publications ... not -just- C/R.
> --
>
> ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> with your education - Mark Twain"

Interesting opinion, and perhaps I overreacted. On the other hand,
looking back in this thread, I quote the first reference to Consumer
Reports:

> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.

The reference here is clearly to the owner surveys, as *I* said, and
*not* to CR's staff reviews, as you reference above. You clearly stated
your opinion with respect to CR's staff reviews. You're deluded, but so
are we all, about something; you're entitled. The point is, no one was
arguing with you about it.

For whatever *my* opinion is worth, I suggest to you the following: The
size of CR's audience reflects the diversity of products they test, name
recognition, and their many years in business.

Further, I recommend that if you are unable to form an opinion uncolored
by the pablum handed out by automobile manufacturers, I recommend that
you do the best you can by reading a VARIETY of publications ...
including C/R.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
We have enough youth; how about a fountain of smart?

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On 11/15/2003 10:15 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:

> In news:Aiptb.17114$w66.367558@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
> Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
>> On 11/15/2003 12:38 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> > CR's evaluation process has always been plagued by subjectivity.
>> > I'm the one writing the check at purchase time and I am the one
>> > who has to live with the purchase. That's why it's what -I-
>> > discover about the car that matters most. You can let other
>> > people do your thinking and test driving for you. Probably just
>> > as well. Car models live and die by the dictates of the
>> > market .... magazines notwithstanding.
>> >
>> >
>> > What new car have you purchased in the last couple of years?
>> > --
>> >
>> > ~~Philip
>>
>> Philip, the subject of the discussion with respect to Consumer
>> Reports was the reliability of vehicles reported by owners &
>> drivers, hundreds of thousands of them. That's not subjective,
>> unless you intend to claim that Consumer Reports makes up the
>> survey results. If you do, by all means make the claim.
>>
>> RFT!!!
>> Dave Kelsen
>
> Dave, the difference of opinion is over C/R's automotive evaluations
> over the years and the weight that should be given to those reports
> vs. personal research. C/R is a non-profit organization which means
> they can be just as prejudiced and opinionated in one direction as a
> "for profit" magazine can be biased in favor of its advertisers in
> another direction. The size of CR's audience only reflects the
> diversity of product they test, name recognition, and their many
> years in business.
>
> I have worked in the auto repair business for many years and have
> visited several assembly plant(s) of the models up for consideration.
> To those who have not such a background, do the best you can by
> reading a VARIETY of publications ... not -just- C/R.
> --
>
> ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> with your education - Mark Twain"

Interesting opinion, and perhaps I overreacted. On the other hand,
looking back in this thread, I quote the first reference to Consumer
Reports:

> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.

The reference here is clearly to the owner surveys, as *I* said, and
*not* to CR's staff reviews, as you reference above. You clearly stated
your opinion with respect to CR's staff reviews. You're deluded, but so
are we all, about something; you're entitled. The point is, no one was
arguing with you about it.

For whatever *my* opinion is worth, I suggest to you the following: The
size of CR's audience reflects the diversity of products they test, name
recognition, and their many years in business.

Further, I recommend that if you are unable to form an opinion uncolored
by the pablum handed out by automobile manufacturers, I recommend that
you do the best you can by reading a VARIETY of publications ...
including C/R.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
We have enough youth; how about a fountain of smart?

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On 11/15/2003 10:15 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:

> In news:Aiptb.17114$w66.367558@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
> Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
>> On 11/15/2003 12:38 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> > CR's evaluation process has always been plagued by subjectivity.
>> > I'm the one writing the check at purchase time and I am the one
>> > who has to live with the purchase. That's why it's what -I-
>> > discover about the car that matters most. You can let other
>> > people do your thinking and test driving for you. Probably just
>> > as well. Car models live and die by the dictates of the
>> > market .... magazines notwithstanding.
>> >
>> >
>> > What new car have you purchased in the last couple of years?
>> > --
>> >
>> > ~~Philip
>>
>> Philip, the subject of the discussion with respect to Consumer
>> Reports was the reliability of vehicles reported by owners &
>> drivers, hundreds of thousands of them. That's not subjective,
>> unless you intend to claim that Consumer Reports makes up the
>> survey results. If you do, by all means make the claim.
>>
>> RFT!!!
>> Dave Kelsen
>
> Dave, the difference of opinion is over C/R's automotive evaluations
> over the years and the weight that should be given to those reports
> vs. personal research. C/R is a non-profit organization which means
> they can be just as prejudiced and opinionated in one direction as a
> "for profit" magazine can be biased in favor of its advertisers in
> another direction. The size of CR's audience only reflects the
> diversity of product they test, name recognition, and their many
> years in business.
>
> I have worked in the auto repair business for many years and have
> visited several assembly plant(s) of the models up for consideration.
> To those who have not such a background, do the best you can by
> reading a VARIETY of publications ... not -just- C/R.
> --
>
> ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> with your education - Mark Twain"

Interesting opinion, and perhaps I overreacted. On the other hand,
looking back in this thread, I quote the first reference to Consumer
Reports:

> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.

The reference here is clearly to the owner surveys, as *I* said, and
*not* to CR's staff reviews, as you reference above. You clearly stated
your opinion with respect to CR's staff reviews. You're deluded, but so
are we all, about something; you're entitled. The point is, no one was
arguing with you about it.

For whatever *my* opinion is worth, I suggest to you the following: The
size of CR's audience reflects the diversity of products they test, name
recognition, and their many years in business.

Further, I recommend that if you are unable to form an opinion uncolored
by the pablum handed out by automobile manufacturers, I recommend that
you do the best you can by reading a VARIETY of publications ...
including C/R.

RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
We have enough youth; how about a fountain of smart?

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:

>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>their reviews.

Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:

>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>their reviews.

Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:

>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>their reviews.

Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:

>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>their reviews.

Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:20:38 -0500, Brian <optik_b@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:
>
>>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>>their reviews.
>
>Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
>automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Usually, people who bash CR in automotive forums quickly reveal that
they know very little about it.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:20:38 -0500, Brian <optik_b@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:
>
>>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>>their reviews.
>
>Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
>automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Usually, people who bash CR in automotive forums quickly reveal that
they know very little about it.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:20:38 -0500, Brian <optik_b@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:
>
>>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>>their reviews.
>
>Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
>automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Usually, people who bash CR in automotive forums quickly reveal that
they know very little about it.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:20:38 -0500, Brian <optik_b@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:25 -0600, harrierawd@giganews.com (HarrierAWD) wrote:
>
>>CR's auto eval process is very scientific and is done by automotive engineers,
>>not by the editors. You are apparently un-educated and ignorant to understand
>>their reviews.
>
>Anyone who quotes Consumer Reports and excepts to be taken seriously on an
>automotive forum is either a buffoon or a troll.

Usually, people who bash CR in automotive forums quickly reveal that
they know very little about it.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In news:w1Ctb.22949$w66.458618@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> On 11/15/2003 10:15 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
>
> > In news:Aiptb.17114$w66.367558@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
> > Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind
> > posted:
> > > On 11/15/2003 12:38 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
> >
> > > > CR's evaluation process has always been plagued by
> > > > subjectivity. I'm the one writing the check at purchase time
> > > > and I am the one who has to live with the purchase. That's
> > > > why it's what -I- discover about the car that matters most.
> > > > You can let other people do your thinking and test driving
> > > > for you. Probably just as well. Car models live and die
> > > > by the dictates of the market .... magazines notwithstanding.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What new car have you purchased in the last couple of years?
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > ~~Philip
> > >
> > > Philip, the subject of the discussion with respect to Consumer
> > > Reports was the reliability of vehicles reported by owners &
> > > drivers, hundreds of thousands of them. That's not subjective,
> > > unless you intend to claim that Consumer Reports makes up the
> > > survey results. If you do, by all means make the claim.
> > >
> > > RFT!!!
> > > Dave Kelsen
> >
> > Dave, the difference of opinion is over C/R's automotive
> > evaluations over the years and the weight that should be given
> > to those reports vs. personal research. C/R is a non-profit
> > organization which means they can be just as prejudiced and
> > opinionated in one direction as a "for profit" magazine can be
> > biased in favor of its advertisers in another direction. The
> > size of CR's audience only reflects the diversity of product
> > they test, name recognition, and their many years in business.
> >
> > I have worked in the auto repair business for many years and have
> > visited several assembly plant(s) of the models up for
> > consideration. To those who have not such a background, do the
> > best you can by reading a VARIETY of publications ... not -just-
> > C/R. --
> >
> > ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> > with your education - Mark
> > Twain"
>
> Interesting opinion, and perhaps I overreacted. On the other hand,
> looking back in this thread, I quote the first reference to
> Consumer Reports:
>
> > Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face
> the > fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining
> market > share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto
> owners.
>
> The reference here is clearly to the owner surveys, as *I* said,
> and *not* to CR's staff reviews, as you reference above. You
> clearly stated your opinion with respect to CR's staff reviews.
> You're deluded, but so are we all, about something; you're
> entitled. The point is, no one was arguing with you about it.
>
> For whatever *my* opinion is worth, I suggest to you the
> following: The size of CR's audience reflects the diversity of
> products they test, name recognition, and their many years in
> business.
>
> Further, I recommend that if you are unable to form an opinion
> uncolored by the pablum handed out by automobile manufacturers, I
> recommend that you do the best you can by reading a VARIETY of
> publications ... including C/R.
>
> RFT!!!
> Dave Kelsen

When I want an opinion from you, I'll give it to you. ;-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In news:w1Ctb.22949$w66.458618@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> On 11/15/2003 10:15 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
>
> > In news:Aiptb.17114$w66.367558@twister.tampabay.rr.co m,
> > Dave Kelsen <kelsen@elmore.rr.com> being of bellicose mind
> > posted:
> > > On 11/15/2003 12:38 AM Philip® spake these words of knowledge:
> >
> > > > CR's evaluation process has always been plagued by
> > > > subjectivity. I'm the one writing the check at purchase time
> > > > and I am the one who has to live with the purchase. That's
> > > > why it's what -I- discover about the car that matters most.
> > > > You can let other people do your thinking and test driving
> > > > for you. Probably just as well. Car models live and die
> > > > by the dictates of the market .... magazines notwithstanding.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > What new car have you purchased in the last couple of years?
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > ~~Philip
> > >
> > > Philip, the subject of the discussion with respect to Consumer
> > > Reports was the reliability of vehicles reported by owners &
> > > drivers, hundreds of thousands of them. That's not subjective,
> > > unless you intend to claim that Consumer Reports makes up the
> > > survey results. If you do, by all means make the claim.
> > >
> > > RFT!!!
> > > Dave Kelsen
> >
> > Dave, the difference of opinion is over C/R's automotive
> > evaluations over the years and the weight that should be given
> > to those reports vs. personal research. C/R is a non-profit
> > organization which means they can be just as prejudiced and
> > opinionated in one direction as a "for profit" magazine can be
> > biased in favor of its advertisers in another direction. The
> > size of CR's audience only reflects the diversity of product
> > they test, name recognition, and their many years in business.
> >
> > I have worked in the auto repair business for many years and have
> > visited several assembly plant(s) of the models up for
> > consideration. To those who have not such a background, do the
> > best you can by reading a VARIETY of publications ... not -just-
> > C/R. --
> >
> > ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> > with your education - Mark
> > Twain"
>
> Interesting opinion, and perhaps I overreacted. On the other hand,
> looking back in this thread, I quote the first reference to
> Consumer Reports:
>
> > Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face
> the > fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining
> market > share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto
> owners.
>
> The reference here is clearly to the owner surveys, as *I* said,
> and *not* to CR's staff reviews, as you reference above. You
> clearly stated your opinion with respect to CR's staff reviews.
> You're deluded, but so are we all, about something; you're
> entitled. The point is, no one was arguing with you about it.
>
> For whatever *my* opinion is worth, I suggest to you the
> following: The size of CR's audience reflects the diversity of
> products they test, name recognition, and their many years in
> business.
>
> Further, I recommend that if you are unable to form an opinion
> uncolored by the pablum handed out by automobile manufacturers, I
> recommend that you do the best you can by reading a VARIETY of
> publications ... including C/R.
>
> RFT!!!
> Dave Kelsen

When I want an opinion from you, I'll give it to you. ;-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"