Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In article <g6Rsb.9428$nz.6467@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.n et>,
josephoberlander@earthlink.net says...
>>
>> Although it would make sense for an SUV to have an easy-clean interior
>> like the Wrangler or Element (or old SUV), as opposed to a "nice" interior
>> that gets dirty easily and is hard to clean.
>
>I personally love the Element except...
>
>What were they thinking putting AWD in it and no real 4WD? Ag. So
>close to getting everything right and worthless off-road.
>

It's got very low clearance so it's really not designed to go offroad. Its
gas tank also hangs dangerously low underneath. Hopefully its AWD system will
do OK on beach sand.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
> But doesn't the US still have the most advanced military equipment in the
> world? I don't ever remember an M1 Abrams break down - I was in desert
Storm
> (of course us Marines were still in the good old M60s). The war machine
that
> the U.S. has is really high tech. I am just quoting a letter, which put
some
> light on this issue. I still agree that for most part, American car
industry
> is doing catch up.

The M1A1 Abrams is probably the best tank in the world. Notice the
designation? That's because it took about 15 years to get an acceptable
one built. The engines (gas turbines), the gun, the armor, etc. were all
re-designed at least once. The tank was first conceived/designed
around 1970, IIRC.

The really good thing is that the USSR, Europe and third-world countries
are worse at building military stuff. For instance, the UK's attempt to
build the Nimrod AWACS failed utterly at the same time we built
the E3A. The US's current defense budget is higher than the 10 next-
biggest defense budgets (or something like that.) The US has spent
far more than the rest of the world has, and consequently has better
equipment and men (training is key) than anyone else.

That *does not* mean that the people in the US's defense industry are
better than anyone else's. We spend more, you get more (even
though the Pentagon's beaurocracy appears to be mostly incompetent
and spends much of it's time on inter-service fights.) There are a
lot of good people in the US's defense industry; but there are
many more that are very ordinary or even moronic.

The main problem I see with the US's auto industry is that they
have always been too focused on current profits and haven't
spent enough on R&D and product development. Complacency.

Floyd

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
> But doesn't the US still have the most advanced military equipment in the
> world? I don't ever remember an M1 Abrams break down - I was in desert
Storm
> (of course us Marines were still in the good old M60s). The war machine
that
> the U.S. has is really high tech. I am just quoting a letter, which put
some
> light on this issue. I still agree that for most part, American car
industry
> is doing catch up.

The M1A1 Abrams is probably the best tank in the world. Notice the
designation? That's because it took about 15 years to get an acceptable
one built. The engines (gas turbines), the gun, the armor, etc. were all
re-designed at least once. The tank was first conceived/designed
around 1970, IIRC.

The really good thing is that the USSR, Europe and third-world countries
are worse at building military stuff. For instance, the UK's attempt to
build the Nimrod AWACS failed utterly at the same time we built
the E3A. The US's current defense budget is higher than the 10 next-
biggest defense budgets (or something like that.) The US has spent
far more than the rest of the world has, and consequently has better
equipment and men (training is key) than anyone else.

That *does not* mean that the people in the US's defense industry are
better than anyone else's. We spend more, you get more (even
though the Pentagon's beaurocracy appears to be mostly incompetent
and spends much of it's time on inter-service fights.) There are a
lot of good people in the US's defense industry; but there are
many more that are very ordinary or even moronic.

The main problem I see with the US's auto industry is that they
have always been too focused on current profits and haven't
spent enough on R&D and product development. Complacency.

Floyd

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
> But doesn't the US still have the most advanced military equipment in the
> world? I don't ever remember an M1 Abrams break down - I was in desert
Storm
> (of course us Marines were still in the good old M60s). The war machine
that
> the U.S. has is really high tech. I am just quoting a letter, which put
some
> light on this issue. I still agree that for most part, American car
industry
> is doing catch up.

The M1A1 Abrams is probably the best tank in the world. Notice the
designation? That's because it took about 15 years to get an acceptable
one built. The engines (gas turbines), the gun, the armor, etc. were all
re-designed at least once. The tank was first conceived/designed
around 1970, IIRC.

The really good thing is that the USSR, Europe and third-world countries
are worse at building military stuff. For instance, the UK's attempt to
build the Nimrod AWACS failed utterly at the same time we built
the E3A. The US's current defense budget is higher than the 10 next-
biggest defense budgets (or something like that.) The US has spent
far more than the rest of the world has, and consequently has better
equipment and men (training is key) than anyone else.

That *does not* mean that the people in the US's defense industry are
better than anyone else's. We spend more, you get more (even
though the Pentagon's beaurocracy appears to be mostly incompetent
and spends much of it's time on inter-service fights.) There are a
lot of good people in the US's defense industry; but there are
many more that are very ordinary or even moronic.

The main problem I see with the US's auto industry is that they
have always been too focused on current profits and haven't
spent enough on R&D and product development. Complacency.

Floyd

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
> But doesn't the US still have the most advanced military equipment in the
> world? I don't ever remember an M1 Abrams break down - I was in desert
Storm
> (of course us Marines were still in the good old M60s). The war machine
that
> the U.S. has is really high tech. I am just quoting a letter, which put
some
> light on this issue. I still agree that for most part, American car
industry
> is doing catch up.

The M1A1 Abrams is probably the best tank in the world. Notice the
designation? That's because it took about 15 years to get an acceptable
one built. The engines (gas turbines), the gun, the armor, etc. were all
re-designed at least once. The tank was first conceived/designed
around 1970, IIRC.

The really good thing is that the USSR, Europe and third-world countries
are worse at building military stuff. For instance, the UK's attempt to
build the Nimrod AWACS failed utterly at the same time we built
the E3A. The US's current defense budget is higher than the 10 next-
biggest defense budgets (or something like that.) The US has spent
far more than the rest of the world has, and consequently has better
equipment and men (training is key) than anyone else.

That *does not* mean that the people in the US's defense industry are
better than anyone else's. We spend more, you get more (even
though the Pentagon's beaurocracy appears to be mostly incompetent
and spends much of it's time on inter-service fights.) There are a
lot of good people in the US's defense industry; but there are
many more that are very ordinary or even moronic.

The main problem I see with the US's auto industry is that they
have always been too focused on current profits and haven't
spent enough on R&D and product development. Complacency.

Floyd

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In news:nq-dnVQZP9uHkCmi4p2dnA@comcast.com,
HarrierAWD <harrierawd@giganews.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> In article
> <QKQsb.11630$6c3.9998@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>, 1chip-
> state1@earthlink.net.invalid says...
> >
> > GM is the landlord and primary customer, Toyota is the product
> > designer and production manager, and NUMMI is the legal entity
> > acting as liaison between GM, Toyota, UAW, and the IRS. I
> > toured NUMMI in June of 2002 and purchased the Corolla in Sept
> > of 2002. Liked what I saw over all. I've also toured the Ford
> > plant in Atlanta (was a Taurus plant in 1989) and the Corvette
> > plant in Bowling Green, KY. The Ford tour did nothing to
> > favorably impress me. Come to think of it, I also had several
> > "backdoor tours" of the GM plant in South Gate ... years ago
> > (1978?). Yikes! You are making accusations that are not
> > universal and particularly so regarding NUMMI. Perhaps you
> > don't know the history of that plant when GM ran it ... and
> > finally had to close it down. Cling to your bigotry, it's your
> > comfortable zone. --
> >
> > ~~Philip
>
>
> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.
> The result speaks the truth. We need to wake up and compete, not
> to be ignorant like you.
>
> Just because GM/UAW gave you some kind of "backdoor tours" (I
> don't wanna know) in their plants shouldn't slant your view about
> GM/UAW quality. Instead of touring the useless plants, go to your
> local library and read the April issue of Consumer Reports.

Oh but if you knew me thru posts on the alt.autos.toyota forum. But
this particular thread is so crossposted....

Nobody of experience gives Consumer Reports much credence. They are
handy ... but not much more. I've seen them print laughable reviews
while other times they get it close to right. That publication
should never make up your mind.

The back door tours I got of GM Southgate back in '78 was when I had
a part time job picking up special deliveries of parts baskets from
LAX and running them (often late at night) to the plant. GM
Southgate at that time was a shoddy place by any standard. It was
soon closed.

Take this to the bank, friend .... what you learn in a library is
only icing on the cake ... after a factory tour, especially an
unguided tour. I also took an unguided tour of Ford's truck assembly
plant in Richmond, VA (1989?). Damned JIT delivery. But I didn't
let that layover time turn into wasted time. :-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In news:nq-dnVQZP9uHkCmi4p2dnA@comcast.com,
HarrierAWD <harrierawd@giganews.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> In article
> <QKQsb.11630$6c3.9998@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>, 1chip-
> state1@earthlink.net.invalid says...
> >
> > GM is the landlord and primary customer, Toyota is the product
> > designer and production manager, and NUMMI is the legal entity
> > acting as liaison between GM, Toyota, UAW, and the IRS. I
> > toured NUMMI in June of 2002 and purchased the Corolla in Sept
> > of 2002. Liked what I saw over all. I've also toured the Ford
> > plant in Atlanta (was a Taurus plant in 1989) and the Corvette
> > plant in Bowling Green, KY. The Ford tour did nothing to
> > favorably impress me. Come to think of it, I also had several
> > "backdoor tours" of the GM plant in South Gate ... years ago
> > (1978?). Yikes! You are making accusations that are not
> > universal and particularly so regarding NUMMI. Perhaps you
> > don't know the history of that plant when GM ran it ... and
> > finally had to close it down. Cling to your bigotry, it's your
> > comfortable zone. --
> >
> > ~~Philip
>
>
> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.
> The result speaks the truth. We need to wake up and compete, not
> to be ignorant like you.
>
> Just because GM/UAW gave you some kind of "backdoor tours" (I
> don't wanna know) in their plants shouldn't slant your view about
> GM/UAW quality. Instead of touring the useless plants, go to your
> local library and read the April issue of Consumer Reports.

Oh but if you knew me thru posts on the alt.autos.toyota forum. But
this particular thread is so crossposted....

Nobody of experience gives Consumer Reports much credence. They are
handy ... but not much more. I've seen them print laughable reviews
while other times they get it close to right. That publication
should never make up your mind.

The back door tours I got of GM Southgate back in '78 was when I had
a part time job picking up special deliveries of parts baskets from
LAX and running them (often late at night) to the plant. GM
Southgate at that time was a shoddy place by any standard. It was
soon closed.

Take this to the bank, friend .... what you learn in a library is
only icing on the cake ... after a factory tour, especially an
unguided tour. I also took an unguided tour of Ford's truck assembly
plant in Richmond, VA (1989?). Damned JIT delivery. But I didn't
let that layover time turn into wasted time. :-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In news:nq-dnVQZP9uHkCmi4p2dnA@comcast.com,
HarrierAWD <harrierawd@giganews.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> In article
> <QKQsb.11630$6c3.9998@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>, 1chip-
> state1@earthlink.net.invalid says...
> >
> > GM is the landlord and primary customer, Toyota is the product
> > designer and production manager, and NUMMI is the legal entity
> > acting as liaison between GM, Toyota, UAW, and the IRS. I
> > toured NUMMI in June of 2002 and purchased the Corolla in Sept
> > of 2002. Liked what I saw over all. I've also toured the Ford
> > plant in Atlanta (was a Taurus plant in 1989) and the Corvette
> > plant in Bowling Green, KY. The Ford tour did nothing to
> > favorably impress me. Come to think of it, I also had several
> > "backdoor tours" of the GM plant in South Gate ... years ago
> > (1978?). Yikes! You are making accusations that are not
> > universal and particularly so regarding NUMMI. Perhaps you
> > don't know the history of that plant when GM ran it ... and
> > finally had to close it down. Cling to your bigotry, it's your
> > comfortable zone. --
> >
> > ~~Philip
>
>
> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.
> The result speaks the truth. We need to wake up and compete, not
> to be ignorant like you.
>
> Just because GM/UAW gave you some kind of "backdoor tours" (I
> don't wanna know) in their plants shouldn't slant your view about
> GM/UAW quality. Instead of touring the useless plants, go to your
> local library and read the April issue of Consumer Reports.

Oh but if you knew me thru posts on the alt.autos.toyota forum. But
this particular thread is so crossposted....

Nobody of experience gives Consumer Reports much credence. They are
handy ... but not much more. I've seen them print laughable reviews
while other times they get it close to right. That publication
should never make up your mind.

The back door tours I got of GM Southgate back in '78 was when I had
a part time job picking up special deliveries of parts baskets from
LAX and running them (often late at night) to the plant. GM
Southgate at that time was a shoddy place by any standard. It was
soon closed.

Take this to the bank, friend .... what you learn in a library is
only icing on the cake ... after a factory tour, especially an
unguided tour. I also took an unguided tour of Ford's truck assembly
plant in Richmond, VA (1989?). Damned JIT delivery. But I didn't
let that layover time turn into wasted time. :-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

In news:nq-dnVQZP9uHkCmi4p2dnA@comcast.com,
HarrierAWD <harrierawd@giganews.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> In article
> <QKQsb.11630$6c3.9998@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net>, 1chip-
> state1@earthlink.net.invalid says...
> >
> > GM is the landlord and primary customer, Toyota is the product
> > designer and production manager, and NUMMI is the legal entity
> > acting as liaison between GM, Toyota, UAW, and the IRS. I
> > toured NUMMI in June of 2002 and purchased the Corolla in Sept
> > of 2002. Liked what I saw over all. I've also toured the Ford
> > plant in Atlanta (was a Taurus plant in 1989) and the Corvette
> > plant in Bowling Green, KY. The Ford tour did nothing to
> > favorably impress me. Come to think of it, I also had several
> > "backdoor tours" of the GM plant in South Gate ... years ago
> > (1978?). Yikes! You are making accusations that are not
> > universal and particularly so regarding NUMMI. Perhaps you
> > don't know the history of that plant when GM ran it ... and
> > finally had to close it down. Cling to your bigotry, it's your
> > comfortable zone. --
> >
> > ~~Philip
>
>
> Bigotry only belongs to someone like you. You refuse to face the
> fact that Toyota is making quality automobiles and gaining market
> share in the U.S. Consumer Reports surveys 600,000 auto owners.
> The result speaks the truth. We need to wake up and compete, not
> to be ignorant like you.
>
> Just because GM/UAW gave you some kind of "backdoor tours" (I
> don't wanna know) in their plants shouldn't slant your view about
> GM/UAW quality. Instead of touring the useless plants, go to your
> local library and read the April issue of Consumer Reports.

Oh but if you knew me thru posts on the alt.autos.toyota forum. But
this particular thread is so crossposted....

Nobody of experience gives Consumer Reports much credence. They are
handy ... but not much more. I've seen them print laughable reviews
while other times they get it close to right. That publication
should never make up your mind.

The back door tours I got of GM Southgate back in '78 was when I had
a part time job picking up special deliveries of parts baskets from
LAX and running them (often late at night) to the plant. GM
Southgate at that time was a shoddy place by any standard. It was
soon closed.

Take this to the bank, friend .... what you learn in a library is
only icing on the cake ... after a factory tour, especially an
unguided tour. I also took an unguided tour of Ford's truck assembly
plant in Richmond, VA (1989?). Damned JIT delivery. But I didn't
let that layover time turn into wasted time. :-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:31:07 -0800, "fbloogyudsr"
<fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote:

>"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
>> > > Latest Car and Driver had a great letter. In it someone pointed out,
>> Japan
>> > > and Germany is forbidden from building armies. Their brightest
>engineers
>> > go
>> > > work for auto manufacturers.
>> > >
>> > > In the U.S. , brightest minds go to work for defense companies.
>> >
>> > In your dreams. I've worked at Boeing and in the high-tech industries,
>> > and there is no comparison - best and brightest computer people work
>> > for Apple, Intel, Microsoft, NEC. If it is the same for manufacturing
>> > and mechanical design, I'd put my money on the auto-industry people.
>> >
>> > Floyd
>> >
>>
>> I am not dreaming the letter. It was really there.
>
>So, you wanna work on the AWACS plane? When it was delivered
>to the AF in 1978 or so, it's computer was essentially - *AND STILL
>IS TO THIS DAY* essentially an IBM 360 using 1970 tech. If a
>computer went out the techs often went down to Radio Shack for
>a capacitor to fix it.
>
>I had a manager - this guy had a PhD in Math -

>that couldn't understand
>that, if a compiler (under development) could do 1+2=2, it could also
>do 2+2=4.

Hmmmm if a compiler can do 1+2=2

Pretty good compiler I'd say <g>

>We had other managers that believed that assembly code
>was the only way to go to make tight code - they never could believe
>that the *algorithms* and *requirements* dictated the slow system
>response.
>
>Basically, 10% of us did 90% of the work, because 90% of the people
>there were incapable. Nothing has changed since then - have you
>ever noticed that the Star Wars interceptors still don't work; after
>40 years you'd think they could get it right.
>
>Floyd

Scott in Florida

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:31:07 -0800, "fbloogyudsr"
<fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote:

>"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
>> > > Latest Car and Driver had a great letter. In it someone pointed out,
>> Japan
>> > > and Germany is forbidden from building armies. Their brightest
>engineers
>> > go
>> > > work for auto manufacturers.
>> > >
>> > > In the U.S. , brightest minds go to work for defense companies.
>> >
>> > In your dreams. I've worked at Boeing and in the high-tech industries,
>> > and there is no comparison - best and brightest computer people work
>> > for Apple, Intel, Microsoft, NEC. If it is the same for manufacturing
>> > and mechanical design, I'd put my money on the auto-industry people.
>> >
>> > Floyd
>> >
>>
>> I am not dreaming the letter. It was really there.
>
>So, you wanna work on the AWACS plane? When it was delivered
>to the AF in 1978 or so, it's computer was essentially - *AND STILL
>IS TO THIS DAY* essentially an IBM 360 using 1970 tech. If a
>computer went out the techs often went down to Radio Shack for
>a capacitor to fix it.
>
>I had a manager - this guy had a PhD in Math -

>that couldn't understand
>that, if a compiler (under development) could do 1+2=2, it could also
>do 2+2=4.

Hmmmm if a compiler can do 1+2=2

Pretty good compiler I'd say <g>

>We had other managers that believed that assembly code
>was the only way to go to make tight code - they never could believe
>that the *algorithms* and *requirements* dictated the slow system
>response.
>
>Basically, 10% of us did 90% of the work, because 90% of the people
>there were incapable. Nothing has changed since then - have you
>ever noticed that the Star Wars interceptors still don't work; after
>40 years you'd think they could get it right.
>
>Floyd

Scott in Florida

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:31:07 -0800, "fbloogyudsr"
<fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote:

>"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
>> > > Latest Car and Driver had a great letter. In it someone pointed out,
>> Japan
>> > > and Germany is forbidden from building armies. Their brightest
>engineers
>> > go
>> > > work for auto manufacturers.
>> > >
>> > > In the U.S. , brightest minds go to work for defense companies.
>> >
>> > In your dreams. I've worked at Boeing and in the high-tech industries,
>> > and there is no comparison - best and brightest computer people work
>> > for Apple, Intel, Microsoft, NEC. If it is the same for manufacturing
>> > and mechanical design, I'd put my money on the auto-industry people.
>> >
>> > Floyd
>> >
>>
>> I am not dreaming the letter. It was really there.
>
>So, you wanna work on the AWACS plane? When it was delivered
>to the AF in 1978 or so, it's computer was essentially - *AND STILL
>IS TO THIS DAY* essentially an IBM 360 using 1970 tech. If a
>computer went out the techs often went down to Radio Shack for
>a capacitor to fix it.
>
>I had a manager - this guy had a PhD in Math -

>that couldn't understand
>that, if a compiler (under development) could do 1+2=2, it could also
>do 2+2=4.

Hmmmm if a compiler can do 1+2=2

Pretty good compiler I'd say <g>

>We had other managers that believed that assembly code
>was the only way to go to make tight code - they never could believe
>that the *algorithms* and *requirements* dictated the slow system
>response.
>
>Basically, 10% of us did 90% of the work, because 90% of the people
>there were incapable. Nothing has changed since then - have you
>ever noticed that the Star Wars interceptors still don't work; after
>40 years you'd think they could get it right.
>
>Floyd

Scott in Florida

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:31:07 -0800, "fbloogyudsr"
<fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote:

>"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote
>> > > Latest Car and Driver had a great letter. In it someone pointed out,
>> Japan
>> > > and Germany is forbidden from building armies. Their brightest
>engineers
>> > go
>> > > work for auto manufacturers.
>> > >
>> > > In the U.S. , brightest minds go to work for defense companies.
>> >
>> > In your dreams. I've worked at Boeing and in the high-tech industries,
>> > and there is no comparison - best and brightest computer people work
>> > for Apple, Intel, Microsoft, NEC. If it is the same for manufacturing
>> > and mechanical design, I'd put my money on the auto-industry people.
>> >
>> > Floyd
>> >
>>
>> I am not dreaming the letter. It was really there.
>
>So, you wanna work on the AWACS plane? When it was delivered
>to the AF in 1978 or so, it's computer was essentially - *AND STILL
>IS TO THIS DAY* essentially an IBM 360 using 1970 tech. If a
>computer went out the techs often went down to Radio Shack for
>a capacitor to fix it.
>
>I had a manager - this guy had a PhD in Math -

>that couldn't understand
>that, if a compiler (under development) could do 1+2=2, it could also
>do 2+2=4.

Hmmmm if a compiler can do 1+2=2

Pretty good compiler I'd say <g>

>We had other managers that believed that assembly code
>was the only way to go to make tight code - they never could believe
>that the *algorithms* and *requirements* dictated the slow system
>response.
>
>Basically, 10% of us did 90% of the work, because 90% of the people
>there were incapable. Nothing has changed since then - have you
>ever noticed that the Star Wars interceptors still don't work; after
>40 years you'd think they could get it right.
>
>Floyd

Scott in Florida

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

> My apologies. I'll be more careful. |^ (
> --
>
> ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> with your education - Mark Twain"

Thanks. I guess I wouldn't care about being called a bigot if I was one.

\Big"ot*ry\, n. [Cf. F. bigoterie.]
1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning
attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with
narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.
2. The practice or tenets of a bigot.

Still, I'm not sure what the bigtry refered to was. Was it agains
"foreing" cars or was it anti-union workers?

If it was about the country of manufacture, that's just stupid, although
you might be tempted to generalize and say the German cars are better
than NA cars, and of course get into a huge flame war. Please don't say
that I said that, it's just an example.

As for the union situation, I would argue that in some cases a unionized
labour force constantly butting heads with management is not a healthy
environment for quality or cost consciousness. Management needs to treat
workers fairly. Labour needs to see the big picture beyond the next pay
cheque or overtime bonus.

Re: Can Anything Stop Toyota?
 

> My apologies. I'll be more careful. |^ (
> --
>
> ~~Philip "Never let school interfere
> with your education - Mark Twain"

Thanks. I guess I wouldn't care about being called a bigot if I was one.

\Big"ot*ry\, n. [Cf. F. bigoterie.]
1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning
attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with
narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.
2. The practice or tenets of a bigot.

Still, I'm not sure what the bigtry refered to was. Was it agains
"foreing" cars or was it anti-union workers?

If it was about the country of manufacture, that's just stupid, although
you might be tempted to generalize and say the German cars are better
than NA cars, and of course get into a huge flame war. Please don't say
that I said that, it's just an example.

As for the union situation, I would argue that in some cases a unionized
labour force constantly butting heads with management is not a healthy
environment for quality or cost consciousness. Management needs to treat
workers fairly. Labour needs to see the big picture beyond the next pay
cheque or overtime bonus.